What do male writers think about females writing from a male perspective?

[Kumquatqueen]

Ever read fandom works?

Gay, pornographic fanfic by young women, the kind that I've seen, can get very raunchy, with physical description. How big is that dick? Is he circumcised or not? How deep is he going into his ass? How fast? Is he sweaty? Is he buff and masculine, or skinny and feminine?

Women have raw sexual desire, too. So they write about it and they draw it. I've seen plenty of female artists who draw highly explicit hardcore pornography, and write it, too. So it's not accurate to assume that someone who describes a "B-cup hourglass whatever" is necessarily a guy. I think it's fair to say that that person is likely to be a guy, but I'd argue that that person could also easily be a woman.

Just because this offhand, easy description of someone's body doesn't betray someone's gender... it only shows what they're focusing on in their erotic storytelling, and the (subjective) quality of their work. Their experience or lack thereof. And that is gender neutral.

Women can write filthy, visual porn, sure. But they also know that clothes sizes are works of fiction, and an hourglass figure isn't going to be a B cup, and that sizing varies around the world. And are generally more interested in cock circumference than length.

In all the fanfic I've read, vast majority by women, of a wide variety of skill and experience levels, I don't think I've once seen a woman described by bra size. Cocks may get described in detail, but almost never with a number attached.

There's a subset of GM stories on this site I'm pretty sure are written by men, not just because fanfic doesn't include the same tropes, but there's an aggressive possibly misogynistic overtone. "I'm gonna breed you in your boy-pussy," for example. And focus on volumes of ejaculate. Those stories and the fantasy first-time cocksucking ones I'd guess are male, some very emotional "I never thought I'd be understood, now I've found a partner and adopted a family" are probably written by women, but the stories in the middle - ones approaching realism of characters, with added sex - could be by either.

KeithD, for example, I guessed was likely male but wouldn't have been surprised if he wasn't. A story of mine where I tried to emulate his descriptions of place and sex, though with more characterisation because I wanted to, gets me messages every few months from guys who clearly think I'm male - one chap invited me to his all-male oil-wrestling parties, and he sounds lovely, but I bet would be disappointed if I turned up!

 

[TheRedChamber]

For me personally, I think my tell as a guy writing as a woman is wardrobe. I'm not good at describing women's clothing. Simple things are easy, shorts, t-shirt....but getting into dresses and accessories is tough. I've even looked at my wife on a night out and thought, well, this is easy, how can I describe what she's wearing? But for some reason it's still some type of block.

The other aspect to this, I think, is women tend to say they're looking good because of what they are wearing, whereas for men it tends to be separate. So a woman will say how her Jimmy Cho heels (maybe I have no idea?) are accentuating her legs and the push-up bra is moving her assets up and outwards. The boys will just say she's got great legs and breast and maybe remember to mention what she's wearing a paragraph later.

I'm also struggling with constantly with hairstyles in my 1963-based work in progress - I keep writing 'she had long straight hair' before thinking, fuck, no she doesn't and then having to consult my bookmarked chart for something other than a bouffant I haven't used yet...

 

[Auden James]

I'd say that there are multiple levels on which a male writer (and reader) may "tell" that a male POV character has been written by a woman. Just to name a few of these levels off the top of my head: plot, characterization, description, narrational voice, style.

As to plot I think TheRedChamber gives a good overview on some of the possible spillover effects from contemporary romance (CR), the original hub of "chick lit" and "women's fiction." Basically, if a male POV character functions merely as a tool to fit out an evidently CR-based fantasy, then it's a telltale sign of a woman writer doing the writing (with her usual target group in mind a/o producing her own wish-fulfillment story).

As to characterization I think women writers run the substantial risks of either writing effiminate, hollow, or cartoon male characters. The first usually happens when they think that writing male characters comprises little more than changing their pronouns; the second usually happens when they realize that there's much more to writing male characters than a different set of pronouns, but they still cannot figure out how to fill the void left behind by the missing "formation(s) of a woman's character" as the OP so aptly put it; the third usually happens when they try to fill said void with handy a/o trendy clichés a/o stereotypes, e.g., take what pink_silk_glove said above as an example or any instantiation of "toxic masculinity" as propagated by corporate media or instigated by academic activists.

As to description I think electricbue66 hits the nail on the head in pointing out that women writers tend to fail in the visuals department, i.e., their (erotic) writing is usually lacking in visual descriptions, not only of the bodies of the male POV character's female love interests but also of a story's setting and general fictional world, whilst—in contrast—overdoing the descriptions of the male POV character's thought processes and emotional reactions. Time and again I've had exactly the same experience as electricblue66 while editing (erotic) writings by women writers: there's usually a substantial lack of visual descriptions.

As to narrational voice I think that's one of the hardest parts to get right for women writers, especially when utilizing a 1st person POV. As I pointed out in another thread ("'Realism' in writing sexual relations"), here and here, something simply tends to be off in a male narrator's voice written by a woman writer, at least for attentive male readers themselves. And I suspect this may be closely related to the next and final item on this list!

As to style I think women writers, especially in erotica, tend to use less crude words and in general seem rather inclined to a softer approach when confronting the erotic. Just compare, for example, Henry Miller's "Opus Pistorum" and Anaïs Nin's "Delta of Venus," and you'll soon notice the mentioned differences in style. A woman writer's style is usually lacking in vigor, speed, vividness, and directness. And if you want to believe recent results of empiric research, then women writers most heavily favor the pronoun "she" and the relational words "for," "with," "and," and "not;" their style also is supposed to be more "interactive" in trying to create a relationship between the writer and reader.

Well, that's my take on the topic. I hope that the OP—or some other writer (or reader)—might gleam a benefit, however little, from my analysis. Let's see what others think of it!

 

[Paul_Chance]

I think in general this is another thread full of over thinking. End of the day, who cares who is writing the story? If you read something and enjoy it, then find out the person who wrote it was the opposite gender you thought, do you suddenly not like it?

I'm aware there are men so insecure that the thought something a man wrote turned them on can give them "The gay", but I think that's a small number because anyone that uptight isn't reading much erotica to begin with.

Take the story at face value, and read it rather than read into it.

I'd agree. I take the story and the author at face value. The gender of the author doesn't matter. Can they tell a good story?

A good writer can write any gender or write from any gender - that's what makes them a good writer.

 

[DarkRaven13]

I have read though all of the thread to date and am impressed in general with the level of discussion. I've wanted to tag and reply to many of the thoughts here ... but I got sucked into the next post, then the next. I wish I could shout out each of the ones that I thought were highly worthy of a giant "YES ... THAT!!!'

At any rate, for those how have said, "What does it matter if you're male or female, so long as you can write..." I would counter with ... it does matter. Perhaps not to you as a reader, but to those of us who are female writers, knowing we are writing in a field where (I am purely being presumptuous here) males dominate.

For the most part, I believe I can tell when an author is male vs female. I've gotten it wrong a number of times yes ... but like a lot have mentioned, there are some generic tells.

Getting back to why it matters (or at least why it matters to me) - In short .... to become a better writer.

I have been told by numerous commenters that they can tell I'm a female writer. (The tells that @TarnishedPenny made in here post being what I was told. And I think she, TarnishedPenny did a great write up btw.)

So it does help me to know what these "tells" are so that when and if I do write from a male POV, I can avoid those if needed, and perhaps be better at writing to a particular audience if needed. @TheRedChamber also did a REALLY go post on explaining what he thinks is happening as we all write ... about how we perceive our characters, and how others may perceive our writing. And while he did not explicitly call out male or female "tells," what he did do was allow me to understand the traps we tend to fall in when writing. (Not that the traps are good or bad, but they are traps so to speak.)

So, why does it matter? Because it helps me learn to write better, or in a different style. Not to deceive an audience of my gender, but to make me, as a writer, be able to market to an audience if I so choose.

Additionally, learning to write from a different POV successfully is also a lesson in ...well ....learning. The skills that one can glean from writing well in one style, be it a gender POV or a 1st/2nd/3rd POV is good to learn, as these skills won't just come in handy in writing, but in other life challenges as well.

Sorry for my ramblings ... but I think this is a really good discussion and I want to thank the OP, @Athalia for asking the question.

DR

 

[MadeleineSinha]

When a woman writes from a male perspective, it's usually still the case that she's writing a female (her) fantasy and she's writing the sort of man she'd like to be involved with. Same when men write as women. Sure we don't mind if the other gender reads our story and there can be something hot about finding out what the opposite sex finds hot. Still, there are things that women want from an erotic sort that men don't want and visa versa and it's that difference that often jumps out. We notice that the male character is chiselled and rugged, masculine but sensitive, successful but makes time, kind, caring and faithful despite being highly desirable for practically every woman in the world. As fantasy that's fine, just for men the fantasy of girl who will do things on a first date that would make a porn producer blush is fine. It's what people are here for.

There are stories where two amazing attractive people meet, flirt, fuck and either pass like ships in the night or maybe live happily ever after. They can be a lot better and a deeper than I'm making them sound, but they tend to be predicated on the spiciness and the uniqueness of the moment.

The problem for men (or at least me) often comes when you have the perfect man and the bland self-insert woman. The problem is the same regardless of the PoV things are written from, but there are a number of common features. One is the mind reading and path smooting - he's whisking her away to Hawaii as a surprise this weekend, no, he knows it's the busy season at work but he's already squared things away with her boss and she's be covered, and while she's there he'll excert exactly the right amount of gentle pressure to make her agree to go scuba-diving, which she'll love despite her misgivings but then later he'll listen to what she wants to do and, once they've climb the mountain and are sitting arm in arm at the top, he'll open up to her with a heartfelt story of how he overcame vertigo on a mountain as a child which he's never told anyone before, but he feels so connected to her.

There's two main problems with this from a man's point of view. First, is we read it and we remember all the times when we've tried to do something like that and it's backfired - don't you know it's my sister's baby shower this weekend, how dare you talk to my boss without my permission, people have actually died scuba diving you know... and so on. But no, our hero doesn't miss a beat. And that romantic scuba diving weekend definitely won't coincide with her monthly cycle. It's not that we non-fictional males never get it right, or don't try, it's just that this guy has a supernatural batting average and it making calls where we're thinking 'I don't know, that's a lot of money on a hunch...'

But more than this, for a lot of stories, we end up find ourselves wondering, if he's so great, why is he making all this effort on her? Typically he's so physically, romantically and emotionally attractive, surely he can have his pick of women and surely he knows this and a lot of the story don't really make a case for why he's suddenly enthralled with this one particular woman. She's nice, sure, beautiful even, you can assume once you read past her own body-image issues (which will be inserted even if we're reading from male PoV). There's nothing exactly wrong with her, but he's making all this effort and there's nothing that's leaping out at us saying she's special. And women will say, 'did you not read the scene on the mountain top, they have a deep emotional resonance' and men will go 'pffft'.

The thing is, men are told from an early age that they need to become 'worthy' - slay the dragon and marry the princess and the bigger the dragon the more beautiful the princess will be. Sexist? Well, maybe, but very few men can survive on looks alone and, even if you are super-attractive, it helps to have an extra string in your bow. On the other hand, women tend to be told that they already have 'worth' and they need not to sell themselves short - not necessarily find the most attractive or richest man, but at the very least find someone who recognized their worth. Attitudes are changing but I'd argue this is still prevalent in how a lot of romance is portrayed in fiction.

Take the She-Hulk TV series as a recent example. Jennifer Walters gets superhero powers and all the romantic drama is about how she wants men to want to see her as 'the real Jen' rather than just She-Hulk. Whereas all the male characters are like 'I have superhero powers now, this is really going to open up my options' - except when they have to maintain a secret identity to protect the ones they love and can't cash in their new found dragon-slaying skills. (The TV series is also based on the faulty premise that Tatiana Maslany wouldn't be able to find a decent Internet date even with a few false starts, but I digress...)

So, when reading fiction, men often struggle when the dragon and the princess don't match. If everythings too easy for him, well firstly we hate him for having it easier than us, but we have the suspicion that the hero should be out looking for a bigger dragon and there's actually a better princess in the next castle. On the other hand, if he's working really hard to make the relationship work and the we're not told why this woman is particular worth making the effort (emotional resonance be damned), then we're likely to see it as female fantasy.

In erotic fiction, we're often writing characters who basically are attractive and between whom there is an intial spark of attraction. If you're trying to write a more realistic story with more grounded characters, its worth remembering that while men tend to rate most woman as above average attractiveness (at least within an 18-30 age range), women tend to rate most men as below average attractiveness. For a lot of men, they are not used to the idea of women finding them attractive but they are also often surrounded by a lot of women they find at least quite attractive. And they're well aware that the more attractive they find a woman, the less likely it is that she will like them back. And if you are someone who is not instantly effortlessly attractive, charming or funny, then you may have to dedicate some time to trying to find some way to demonstrate your good qualities to exactly those women who are likely to be swayed by them - except a lot of men have no idea how to do that, especially without giving off the impression that you're desperate. The worst thing a woman can say to a man isn't 'no', it's 'ew'. So, I'd argue, that while a lot of men don't have 'body images' the same way women do, they do have 'self-worth images' they stuggle with, especially if they get knocked back a lot, or struggle to even make a move in the first place. And finally society really isn't good at helping with this. In fact, it's completely brutal towards men who had trouble finding a date.

I think a lot of women then are not good at writing these kinds of scenes where a man is trying to work out how and when to make a move. In an erotic story, often he's going at ask and she's going to say yes, but if there's not more of an element of nervous strategy, the main character goes straight back in the 'attracitve confident man' box - which again is what women like, but make us (inferior) men hate him at least a little.

Can you tell me what “mansplaining” means? It’s too complex for Lil ol’ me

 

[MadeleineSinha]

I’ve written from both male and female perspective and have received feedback that leads me to think I write believably from both. I’ve also written in the third person and had equally positive feedback so I agree with those who said it doesn’t matter.
Jane Austen’s male characters were not stereotypical in any way, nor were Dickens’ women.
at the other end of the literary scale JK Rowling wrote the Cormoran Strike series about a Disabled former soldier which received great reviews and EL James writes drivel that made a packet of cash.

 

[Auden James]

Jane Austen’s male characters were not stereotypical in any way, nor were Dickens’ women.
at the other end of the literary scale JK Rowling wrote the Cormoran Strike series about a Disabled former soldier which received great reviews and EL James writes drivel that made a packet of cash.

The question wasn't whether famous authors of a more or less distant past have successfully written characters of the opposite sex (note that the question of POV is not even necessarily relevant to this consideration), but what, if any, are the telltale signs of women writers writing male POV characters, especially on this site and in today's time.

 

[MadeleineSinha]

The question wasn't whether famous authors of a more or less distant past have successfully written characters of the opposite sex (note that the question of POV is not even necessarily relevant to this consideration), but what, if any, are the telltale signs of women writers writing male POV characters, especially on this site and in today's time.

Ok, I’ll be less circumspect.
I don’t think there are any and my experience would seem to back that up. I obviously included Austen and Dickens as I have a vastly over inflated opinion of my own talent.

 

[Auden James]

Honestly, I haven't a clue what you're so upset about, PullStarsfromthesky. Nowhere did I mention "standards," "societal norms," or "software programs." I also don't know whose throat I supposedly jumped down as there's no blood spilled anywhere. And my "idea of what a woman would write" is not merely a figment of my imagination as your word of choice ("idea") might suggest, but simply the sum total of my experiences reading women writers writing male POV characters, especially on this site and in today's time.

 

[Auden James]

I don’t think there are any and my experience would seem to back that up.

Well, and my experience would directly contradict that (see above). So, where does that leave us?

 

[MadeleineSinha]

Honestly, I haven't a clue what you're so upset about, PullStarsfromthesky. Nowhere did I mention "standards," "societal norms," or "software programs." I also don't know whose throat I supposedly jumped down as there's no blood spilled anywhere. And my "idea of what a woman would write" is not merely a figment of my imagination as your word of choice ("idea") might suggest, but simply the sum total of my experiences reading women writers writing male POV characters, especially on this site and in today's time.

For what it’s worth I didnt have a problem with your post, you made your very valid point well and I hope I clarified my point.

 

[MadeleineSinha]

Well, and my experience would directly contradict that (see above). So, where does that leave us?

ordering another round of Pinot?

 

[MadeleineSinha]

For what it’s worth I didnt have a problem with your post, you made your very valid point well and I hope I clarified my point.

There’s not a right or wrong answer, it’s all based on experience and two people can have diametrically opposed experiences without invalidating each others viewpoint.
can I get some olives in a bowl to go with that?

 

[Bramblethorn]

Emphasis mine, responding to the bolded text.

1-2. For writing the cup sizes, I agree that women most likely wouldn't like that about other women. Out of sheer basic knowledge. But dicks? I've seen so many dick lengths, especially unrealistic ones.

Which sometimes gets into the complicated territory of "does the author not know this is unrealistic? Or are they just discarding 'realism' in the name of escapism?" (See also the perennial debate about birth control and its absence in erotica where that might be relevant.)

On the general topic of distinctively male vs. female writing styles, sometimes I think height is a useful analogy: we can say that men tend to be taller than women, but there are plenty of women who are taller than plenty of men. If I tell you that one of my friends is six foot two and another is five foot four, you might have guesses about which one is more likely to be female but no certainty.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Can you tell me what “mansplaining” means? It’s too complex for Lil ol’ me

If there's part of my post you disagree with or you'd like to offer a different perspective on, I'd be happy to hear it.

 

[oggbashan]

On the general topic of distinctively male vs. female writing styles, sometimes I think height is a useful analogy: we can say that men tend to be taller than women, but there are plenty of women who are taller than plenty of men. If I tell you that one of my friends is six foot two and another is five foot four, you might have guesses about which one is more likely to be female but no certainty.

My nieces are six feet two and five feet eleven in their bare feet. They grew up in a village where the average male height was five feet five inches (the height of the main door to the public house) and the women were five feet one inch. Their brothers, husbands, and father were around six feet six inches. Any relations visiting, such as me, were instantly placed as a relation by being head and shoulders above anyone else.

 

[SimonDoom]

There are software programs that purport to be able to distinguish between male and female writers.

When I have used them, the results are not consistent. As oggbashan I can be classed as writing as a male or as a female., the same for jeanne-d-artois, although 'she' tends to be identified as female more often than oggbashan is. Of course, both are me.

I think the programs are a load of bollocks.

I pretty much agree. I've plugged my writing into those programs, and the results are inconclusive. And I think of myself as writing from a very male perspective.

I think the bottom line in this discussion is that there ARE tell-tale signs that indicate whether the author is male or female, but it's really not that hard for an author to write in a way that makes it hard to tell the author's gender.

 

[oggbashan]

I think that the software was written for American writers and was confused by my British spelling and the many abstruse words I use (more than 97% of writers according to Grammarly).

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

If there's part of my post you disagree with or you'd like to offer a different perspective on, I'd be happy to hear it.

I believe her replay was a joke. Or does the humor of it escape you?

 

[stickygirl]

I’ve written from both male and female perspective and have received feedback that leads me to think I write believably from both. I’ve also written in the third person and had equally positive feedback so I agree with those who said it doesn’t matter.
Jane Austen’s male characters were not stereotypical in any way, nor were Dickens’ women.

Jane Austen only wrote a couple of scenes where women were absent. She reasoned, too modestly, that she could not accurately guess at what men might say ( or more likely, she just wasn't interested! )
Dorothy L Sayers was asked how she was able to write realistic conversations between men. She retorted that she assumed they'd talk like people.

I listened yesterday to a BBC Radio show, A Good Read, with invited guests. Reviewed books are discussed and a male and female guest were entirely at odds about what they found in a novel. I was intrigued to hear one comment "I wish that was the book I'd read".

It's easy to write stereotypical characters just as it is to write in a stereotypical gender style. Ultimately it's what the reader brings - how their life experience shapes their interpretation that's the key to success. An author may make one or two faux pas and readers may be oblivious to it, forgive it or be offended by it.

How different are men and women? Not very much, until it matters

 

[TheRedChamber]

I believe her replay was a joke. Or does the humor of it escape you?

I read it as snarky put-down, thought about telling her she was 'ovaryacting' before deciding that might not be a great idea and finally went for a neutral response.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Your first paragraph here reminds me about how there were phone sex operators who specifically crafted a safe[r] sex fantasy for their clients due to the HIV epidemic. I'm talking about actually mentioning condoms during phone sex, and making that part of the sell.

This reminds me of the discussion going in another thread how some readers enjoy stories where everybody is perfect, and some enjoy stories about imperfect people where they can see themselves.

 

[jehoram]

This reminds me of the discussion going in another thread how some readers enjoy stories where everybody is perfect, and some enjoy stories about imperfect people where they can see themselves.

What is that other thread? I've seen discussions about that, and even put in my two cents worth, but not on this forum. (I'm kind of leaning toward the "imperfect" side of the argument, but I have to admit that most of my characters are the young, libidinous sort.)

 

[Bramblethorn]

What is that other thread? I've seen discussions about that, and even put in my two cents worth, but not on this forum. (I'm kind of leaning toward the "imperfect" side of the argument, but I have to admit that most of my characters are the young, libidinous sort.)

Maybe "discussion" was stretching it a little, but: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/am-i-a-dick.1576352/#post-95912752