Torah and Old Testament

[Sugar Baby Wanted]

By definition, Jews don't believe in Jesus. If you believe in Jesus you're a Christian.

Most Christians don't understand the Torah. They only know it through Paul's derivative fan-fic. That goes for a lot of atheists as well. Western culture is so thoroughly marinated in Christianity that many American and European atheists only know Judaism through the funhouse mirror of Christianity.

It's perfectly possible to be a Jew and an atheist, however. Belief & Faith are Christian concepts, not Jewish ones. Judaism is a cultural identity and a way of living. Halahkah is sometimes translated as "the way of walking". The Torah is not a claim about the factual nature of reality. It's a set of folk tales, and rules for living day-to-day.

Guess you've never heard of Messianic Jews? Hmmm And, you are also saying that Jews are not waiting for a messiah? Talk about a house of mirrors.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Guess you've never heard of Messianic Jews? Hmmm And, you are also saying that Jews are not waiting for a messiah? Talk about a house of mirrors.

Messianic Jews are just fundamentalist Christians cosplaying as Jews. They're Jews the way the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is a democracy/republic.

Except for the ultraorthodox, most Jews don't give the messiah thing much thought. It doesn't really matter if he shows up or not. But even Jews who hope for a messiah agree that Jesus wasn't it.

 

[Sugar Baby Wanted]

Messianic Jews are just fundamentalist Christians cosplaying as Jews. They're Jews the way the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is a democracy/republic.

Except for the ultraorthodox, most Jews don't give the messiah thing much thought. It doesn't really matter if he shows up or not. But even Jews who hope for a messiah agree that Jesus wasn't it.

Since I am not Jewish, if your mother is a Jew, doesn't that make you one as well? Too much proof for me that Jesus is/was the Messiah.

Even those that witnessed Him walk on water, and rise from the grave, doubted Him. And so, this is not unexpected. Do you pray to a higher authority? Interesting ... if you do.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Since I am not Jewish, if your mother is a Jew, doesn't that make you one as well? Too much proof for me that Jesus is/was the Messiah.

Even those that witnessed Him walk on water, and rise from the grave, doubted Him. And so, this is not unexpected. Do you pray to a higher authority? Interesting ... if you do.

Nope, the messiah is only supposed to show up at ends times when the temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem. So whatever Jesus was up to, he definitely wasn’t it.

I’m an atheist, so I don’t pray to anyone. I say the shehecheyanu at the Seder, but that’s just what you do when you get to that part of the Haggadah. It’s like saying “bless you” when someone sneezes.

In general I’m not super observant. We always celebrate Passover and Rosh Hashanah with friends, and of course Hanukkah for the kids, but since the pandemic we’ve been skipping Yom Kippur at the temple. It’s tomorrow and we’re missing it.

 

[JohnnySavage]

It's an interesting argument, but at the end of the day there's no contemporaneous evidence that Jesus ever existed. He probably did, as there were 1,000s of iterant preachers wandering around that part of the world at the time. But there was nothing special about him to warrant a mention in the historical record.

 

[Sugar Baby Wanted]

It's an interesting argument, but at the end of the day there's no contemporaneous evidence that Jesus ever existed. He probably did, as there were 1,000s of iterant preachers wandering around that part of the world at the time. But there was nothing special about him to warrant a mention in the historical record.

What do you consider the historical record? The bible is the most authoritative book in existence.

 

[ll74]

What do you consider the historical record? The bible is the most authoritative book in existence.

The Bible is not meant to be historical record and therefore is not authoritative for that purpose.

 

[Comshaw]

Since I am not Jewish, if your mother is a Jew, doesn't that make you one as well? Too much proof for me that Jesus is/was the Messiah.

Even those that witnessed Him walk on water, and rise from the grave, doubted Him. And so, this is not unexpected. Do you pray to a higher authority? Interesting ... if you do.

Sorry, but there isn't and never was empirical "proof" that Jesus is/was at all, much less in the context you believe. There is no empirical proof that any messiah, god or gods exist no matter the religion that insists they are. All the "proof" sited for such things is in written works, The Christian bible, The Torah, the Quran, ect. All are written by humans, mostly men, for their own reason. Some because of “visions” which are attributable to many factors including hunger, thirst, illness or, as speculated by researchers, an under-developed Corpus Colosseum (attributable to the neanderthal DNA we carry?). Others because they want control and power over others. If you don't believe that read the bible, or the history of some of our religious leaders from the past. The bible (and all other religious text for that matter) is a history, but it is written by those who wanted it to read and appear just how they wanted it to. Therefore it is twisted to what ever bias view point the author wanted it to convey.

Everyone can believe what ever they want to, be it one true god, a pastel of them or none at all. But no one can claim as fact, with no proof other than their say so and a book thousands of years old, written by fallible humans for their own reasons (reasons we have no idea of) that the old text they believe is the only one that tells the truth. As a fiction writer I am sure that, like all good fiction the bible has nuggets of truth in it. I also believe they are few and far between, wrapped in, buried by fabricated scenarios designed by the author to make what ever point they were trying to make, to get people to believe what ever the author is trying to sell.

I have no animosity toward religion, or those who practice it, IF it does no harm to anyone else. If it helps someone get through life, if it gives them peace, if does good, then who am I to try to destroy that? The rub comes in when those who believe a certain way want to force that belief on others, force others to live as they do, believe as they do. Through history it's happened over and over, by many religions. Right now here in this country we have numerous Christian factions trying to do the same thing.

As an atheist I can not prove there is no god. But after these thousands of years you would think that someone, anyone can provide proof there is one. When it is claimed, most times it is from the bible, a book written thousands of years ago, by humans who had their own agenda, translated many times by other humans who had their own agenda. Not a reliable source of truth at all.

If anyone insists the bible is a 100% truthful tome all I ask is a simple thing. Prove to me it is. Prove to me there is a god. Do something that humans have tried to do for thousands of years and failed. Do that and I will admit you are right and believe your way.


Comshaw

 

[Sugar Baby Wanted]

Sorry, but there isn't and never was empirical "proof" that Jesus is/was at all, much less in the context you believe. There is no empirical proof that any messiah, god or gods exist no matter the religion that insists they are. All the "proof" sited for such things is in written works, The Christian bible, The Torah, the Quran, ect. All are written by humans, mostly men, for their own reason. Some because of “visions” which are attributable to many factors including hunger, thirst, illness or, as speculated by researchers, an under-developed Corpus Colosseum (attributable to the neanderthal DNA we carry?). Others because they want control and power over others. If you don't believe that read the bible, or the history of some of our religious leaders from the past. The bible (and all other religious text for that matter) is a history, but it is written by those who wanted it to read and appear just how they wanted it to. Therefore it is twisted to what ever bias view point the author wanted it to convey.

Everyone can believe what ever they want to, be it one true god, a pastel of them or none at all. But no one can claim as fact, with no proof other than their say so and a book thousands of years old, written by fallible humans for their own reasons (reasons we have no idea of) that the old text they believe is the only one that tells the truth. As a fiction writer I am sure that, like all good fiction the bible has nuggets of truth in it. I also believe they are few and far between, wrapped in, buried by fabricated scenarios designed by the author to make what ever point they were trying to make, to get people to believe what ever the author is trying to sell.

I have no animosity toward religion, or those who practice it, IF it does no harm to anyone else. If it helps someone get through life, if it gives them peace, if does good, then who am I to try to destroy that? The rub comes in when those who believe a certain way want to force that belief on others, force others to live as they do, believe as they do. Through history it's happened over and over, by many religions. Right now here in this country we have numerous Christian factions trying to do the same thing.

As an atheist I can not prove there is no god. But after these thousands of years you would think that someone, anyone can provide proof there is one. When it is claimed, most times it is from the bible, a book written thousands of years ago, by humans who had their own agenda, translated many times by other humans who had their own agenda. Not a reliable source of truth at all.

If anyone insists the bible is a 100% truthful tome all I ask is a simple thing. Prove to me it is. Prove to me there is a god. Do something that humans have tried to do for thousands of years and failed. Do that and I will admit you are right and believe your way.


Comshaw

I see the rub. Most of us were once on your side. It is especially difficult for scientists. They want facts! Anyhow, all I can say is it is between you and God. When you find yourself in a situation where nothing short of God's intervention, with your prayers, getting you through, perhaps you will reconsider. I can say that some of our brightest minds believed in God. It is not because they are void of independent thought.

May you find whatever comforts you on your journey. Peace out.

 

[phrodeau]

Throughout history, every mystery ever solved has turned out to be not magic.
—— Tim Minchin, “Storm”

 

[Comshaw]

I see the rub. Most of us were once on your side. It is especially difficult for scientists. They want facts! Anyhow, all I can say is it is between you and God. When you find yourself in a situation where nothing short of God's intervention, with your prayers, getting you through, perhaps you will reconsider. It is not because they are void of independent thought.When you find yourself in a situation where nothing short of God's intervention, with your prayers, getting you through, perhaps you will reconsider. I

May you find whatever comforts you on your journey. Peace out.

"I can say that some of our brightest minds believed in God."

As is their right. However, those bright minds will always claim it is a matter of faith and not fact.

As far as:
"When you find yourself in a situation where nothing short of God's intervention, with your prayers, getting you through, perhaps you will reconsider."

Been there, done that, it's one of the reasons I don't believe there is a god. In my youth I was religious. After a long life full of getting through many tough situations, after much thought and reflection, I am where I am in my thoughts on religion and god. I admit it would be comforting to believe in a god, believe in the afterlife. I can't; I won't because I see too many inconsistencies, and no proof.


Comshaw

 

[iso36]

Religion requires adherants to Believe.

No proof required.

luk Believes I stole his girlfriends.

#Body of Christ/Immaculate Conception

 

[LdyHoneybee]

Literal interpretation is also a thing for religions that many Christians hate

See you got a huge reaction to the comment because you lumped all Christians into the pocket of conservative Fundamentalists. There are MANY christians who are well aware of the historical and geopolitical aspect of the entire Old Testament in addition to the first 5 books comprised of the Torah. There are even extremely progressive churches that consider the Virgin birth as a derivative of the pagan stories about demi-gods and the miracles of Jesus as metaphorical.

 

[colddiesel]

most Jews don't give the messiah thing much thought. It doesn't really matter if he shows up or not. But even Jews who hope for a messiah agree that Jesus wasn't it.

Hmm, it's interesting how the basic theology of mainstream Judaism is similar to that of Islam - but the Politics and History, not so much

 

[ll74]

See you got a huge reaction to the comment because you lumped all Christians into the pocket of conservative Fundamentalists. There are MANY christians who are well aware of the historical and geopolitical aspect of the entire Old Testament in addition to the first 5 books comprised of the Torah. There are even extremely progressive churches that consider the Virgin birth as a derivative of the pagan stories about demi-gods and the miracles of Jesus as metaphorical.

Many is not equal to all. That's why I used the word many and not all.

Reading is hard.

 

[Duleigh]

Literal interpretation is also a thing for religions that many Christians hate

It's TRULY amazing how wrong you can be with 12 words

 

[ll74]

It's TRULY amazing how wrong you can be with 12 words

If you have a church that interprets their book literally in the Christian faith, I'd be happy to acknowledge my mistake.

Hell, I'd be shocked to find any religion that interprets scripture fully in a literal sense. Been a while since I've seen women stoned for being out in public on the Sabbath

 

[JohnEngelman]

Messianic Jews are just fundamentalist Christians cosplaying as Jews. They're Jews the way the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is a democracy/republic.

Except for the ultraorthodox, most Jews don't give the messiah thing much thought. It doesn't really matter if he shows up or not. But even Jews who hope for a messiah agree that Jesus wasn't it.

Msssianic Jews are usually Ashkenazi Jews, with perhaps a few Sephardic Jews, who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah. They probably practice traditional Jewish religious ceremonies, although I am not sure.

Woody Allen is considered to be a Jew, although he is an atheist, whose movies celebrate promiscuity, and sometimes wink at pedophilia. If Jews, even Orthodox Jews, accept Woody Allen as one of them, I do not think they should reject Messianic Jews as Jews. All or most of the New Testament was written by people we would recognize as Messianic Jews.

I can understand the psychology of Jews who reject Messianic Jews. They see Christians as traditional enemies and persecutors of Jews, as unfortunately we often were. There are two ways I would like to respond to that attitude. First, when Jews had more power than Christians they often persecuted Christians. This is shown in the New Testament, and especially in the book of Acts, in epistles of Saint Paul, and in the writing of Eusebius, who lived from 260/265 – 30 May 339 AD. Eusebius was persecuted during the last Roman Christian persecution of the Christians. He became a friend of the Emperor Constantine, after Constantine issued his Edict of Toleration, which ended Roman persecution of all religions. Constantine maintained a benevolent neutrality toward Christianity, but he was not baptized until he was on his death bed.

In his writing Eusebius claimed that Jews participated in Roman persecution of Christians, although Jews were also persecuted after the Jewish Uprising of 66 of 73 AD was crushed, and particularly after the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132–135 AD was crushed. I have read that Jews persecuted Christians after the Arabs conquered the Near East from the Byzantine Empire. Again, I am not justifying Christian persecution of Jews. I think it was a travesty.

Second, Jews who think Christians are their enemy have been reading too many history books, and not enough newspapers. Today the enemies of Jews are Muslims and secular leftists who side with Hamas and Hezbollah in their genocidal designs toward Israel.

One may expect Evangelical Christians to be hostile toward Jews. In the past many of them were. Today they support Israel because they think the existence of Israel is one of the Signs of the times that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is imminent. Support for Israel easily segues to support and affection for Jews.

When a Jew and a Christian get married, they often agree to compromise on the matter of religion. Too often the compromise is that they practice neither religion. I think Messianic Judaism is a better compromise.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Yes jews dont believe in Jesus to the extent they had him killed with their usual shenanigans and manipulation.

Western culture is so throroughly marinated in the behaviour of jews that jews have to manipulate media to try and stem dislike of jews. Their being expelled all through history due to their behaviour says enough.

Yes it is possible to be a jew and an athiest. That is why jews are a race not a religion and it is time for jews to stop masqerading behind the smoke and mirrors that dislike of their behaviour is dislike of their religion.

Yes Judaism is an identity and way of living. One based on usury, swindle, manipulation, and money grubbing without any scruples. And loyalty to your tribe comes before all else.

Because they tend to be intelligent, Jews tend to be successful and prosperous. That is the reason for hostility toward Jews, and not the fantasy that Jews practice "usury, swindle, manipulation, and money grubbing without any scruples." They do not engage in these activities any more than white Gentiles. (By the way, I am a white Gentile.) I have not found data on this, but I suspect that Jews have lower rates of crime and illegitimacy than white Gentiles. I know they have higher IQ averages.

 

[JohnEngelman]

It's an interesting argument, but at the end of the day there's no contemporaneous evidence that Jesus ever existed. He probably did, as there were 1,000s of iterant preachers wandering around that part of the world at the time. But there was nothing special about him to warrant a mention in the historical record.

Soon after the Crucifixion Jesus was mentioned by Tacitus and Josephus. If he was written about during his lifetime by non Christians, the writings were destroyed during the Jewish Uprising of 66 to 73 AD, and the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132–135 AD. Those revolts resulted in the devastation of what is now Israel by the Roman Army. The Jewish Uprising of 66 to 73 AD killed thousands of eye witnesses to the ministry of Jesus.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Have you heard of Bernie Madoff? They can steal more than a troop of darkies combined in their lifetime. Savings and loans swindles? Junk bonds? Money swap? Organ peddling? If you look at financial crime it will look like the invitation list to a bar mitzvah.

THE JEWISH CRIME RATE TENDS TO BE HIGHER THAN THAT OF NONJEWS AND OTHER RELIGIOUS GROUPS FOR WHITE-COLLAR OFFENSES, THAT IS, COMMERCIAL OR COMMERCIALLY RELATED CRIMES, SUCH AS FRAUD, FRAUDULENT BANKRUPTCY, AND EMBEZZLEMENT.

CRIMINALITY AMONG JEWS - AN OVERVIEW​

NCJ Number

6180
Journal

ISSUES IN CRIMINOLOGY Volume: 6

Both in Israel and in the USA, money laundering is a common phenomenon in the ultra-Orthodox community. Just as MK Rabbi Gafni fought tooth and nail to protect ultra-Orthodox free loan societies from oversight, so too did the American ultra-Orthodox community lobby for the 2018 prison reform law passed by the US Congress and signed by President Trump.​

https://www.anumuseum.org.il/blog-items/oy-vey-8-jews-owe-world-apologies/

The website you post does not present documentation for this claim:

"THE JEWISH CRIME RATE TENDS TO BE HIGHER THAN THAT OF NONJEWS AND OTHER RELIGIOUS GROUPS FOR WHITE-COLLAR OFFENSES, THAT IS, COMMERCIAL OR COMMERCIALLY RELATED CRIMES, SUCH AS FRAUD, FRAUDULENT BANKRUPTCY, AND EMBEZZLEMENT."

There are Jewish criminals. I am unaware of any credible documentation that Jews have higher crime rates than white Gentiles. For documentation I would accept a report from the United States Department of Justice.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

One may expect Evangelical Christians to be hostile toward Jews. In the past many of them were. Today they support Israel because they think the existence of Israel is one of the Signs of the times that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is imminent. Support for Israel easily segues to support and affection for Jews.

Most evangelicals are supercessionists. They don’t see Judaism as a separate religion with thousand of years of teaching and history, much of which contradicts Christianity.

They only see Judaism as a dusty precursor to their own beliefs. The “Old Testament” (what an insulting term for the Torah!) is rendered obsolete by their so-called “New Testament”

“Messianic Jews” are Christian fundamentalists who have turned their backs on the Jewish community.

 

[Sugar Baby Wanted]

Most evangelicals are supercessionists. They don’t see Judaism as a separate religion with thousand of years of teaching and history, much of which contradicts Christianity.

They only see Judaism as a dusty precursor to their own beliefs. The “Old Testament” (what an insulting term for the Torah!) is rendered obsolete by their so-called “New Testament”

“Messianic Jews” are Christian fundamentalists who have turned their backs on the Jewish community.

This is an interesting read, (although rather long), and further clarifies Jews and Evangelcals. I think we are all God's people, Jews being chosen, but the Bible says we are "all God's people". Christians are also welcome in Heaven.

https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/file...esources/articles/Kasper_Cambridge_6Dec04.htm

 

[JohnEngelman]

Most evangelicals are supercessionists. They don’t see Judaism as a separate religion with thousand of years of teaching and history, much of which contradicts Christianity.

They only see Judaism as a dusty precursor to their own beliefs. The “Old Testament” (what an insulting term for the Torah!) is rendered obsolete by their so-called “New Testament”

“Messianic Jews” are Christian fundamentalists who have turned their backs on the Jewish community.

In your attitude I detect religious bigotry against Evangelical Christians. I prefer the liturgical varieties of Christianity, but I love Christianity in all of its variety, as I love Judaism.

Messianic Jews are more Jewish than secular Jews. Messianic Jews, like the early Christians, are a Jewish sect. The first Bishop of Jerusalem after the Crucifixion was Saint James. He was Jesus' younger brother. He followed Torah, and worshiped at the Temple of Jerusalem every day until he was martyred by the Sadducees. Because of his Jewish piety Pharisees tried to save his life.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Messianic Jews are more Jewish than secular Jews. Messianic Jews, like the early Christians, are a Jewish sect. The first Bishop of Jerusalem after the Crucifixion was Saint James. He was Jesus' younger brother. He followed Torah, and worshiped at the Temple of Jerusalem every day until he was martyred by the Sadducees. Because of his Jewish piety Pharisees tried to save his life.

Christians don’t get to decide who’s a Jew.