Torah and Old Testament

[Dribble]

I knew the Torah was the first 5 Books of the Old Testament. But I didn't know the history behind them. This ties some of the loose pieces together, and opens the door to some other options.

I find it funny, how our Fascist racists hate the Jewish religion...yet Christianity is built from the same 5 books. What we know...none of it is based on the "word of God"...but on what was an oral history of what was held as the word of God. Today...we see the lies in Trumpism.

 

[ll74]

I knew the Torah was the first 5 Books of the Old Testament. But I didn't know the history behind them. This ties some of the loose pieces together, and opens the door to some other options.

I find it funny, how our Fascist racists hate the Jewish religion...yet Christianity is built from the same 5 books. What we know...none of it is based on the "word of God"...but on what was an oral history of what was held as the word of God. Today...we see the lies in Trumpism.

It's simple....Christians believe the bible is the word of their god, when in reality the scripture was written and curated by political forces. The history is interesting to see which forces won and which ones lost....

 

[Biggs_Darklighter]

There are only superficial differences between the big 3 in regards to the Old Testament. Not a whole lot of difference even with the New. It's interesting how much hate there is when the only real difference is who Jesus was. I mean the Jews kinda bow out on that one but it's pretty close between Ragheads and Bible thumpers.

 

[Dribble]

It's simple....Christians believe the bible is the word of their god, when in reality the scripture was written and curated by political forces. The history is interesting to see which forces won and which ones lost....

It amazes me. History repeats itself. As our Fascist Kradder demonstrates daily. What does one gain from such hatred?

 

[lovecraft68]

It's simple....Christians believe the bible is the word of their god, when in reality the scripture was written and curated by political forces. The history is interesting to see which forces won and which ones lost....

You think of that all by yourself? I knew that by the time I was 12.
What I get a kick out of is people like you with your "The Christians" and "Their God"
Meanwhile you and your kind are a brainwashed cult who worships whatever they're told to worship. At least Christians/Muslims/Jews believe in something.
Your beliefs change with each news cast

 

[ll74]

You think of that all by yourself? I knew that by the time I was 12.
What I get a kick out of is people like you with your "The Christians" and "Their God"
Meanwhile you and your kind are a brainwashed cult who worships whatever they're told to worship. At least Christians/Muslims/Jews believe in something.
Your beliefs change with each news cast

So you're cool with believing in political religions and you're blaming me for pointing that out.

Got it.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

You think of that all by yourself? I knew that by the time I was 12.

Your reading comprehension is off a bit. Try re-reading what he wrote.

What I get a kick out of is people like you with your "The Christians" and "Their God"

Again go back and re-read what was written.....

Meanwhile you and your kind are a brainwashed cult who worships whatever they're told to worship.

Nice projecting

At least Christians/Muslims/Jews believe in something.

Yes, the belief in a belief....zero tangible fact to back up that belief.

Other than the above.......what an awesome fucking post!!

 

[JohnEngelman]

Does anyone hate the Jewish religion? Does anyone even hate the semitic race? As far as I know people are only disgusted by the behaviour of jews.

There is no reason to be disgusted with the behavior of Jews. They are fine people.

 

[ffish1]

There is no reason to be disgusted with the behavior of Jews. They are fine people.

I thought you were renard_ruse's alt.
but now I'm convinced you're not. Saw his last thread?

 

[Dribble]

I am going to have to do more research on this. Seems to me...the history is really based on 2 fractions. One wiped out by the Assyrians...and one based off of Egypt.

 

[ll74]

He might be the only person left on the internet who posts under his real name.

That's not his real name.

 

[ffish1]

Look him up!

D. Ribble

As if you didn't know that.... Your witty joke just flew over his head, and he decided to wow us with his own 'wit'.
That's why I put him on ignore. That stuff annoys the crap out of me.
If you're trying to destroy threads you dislike, do it in a better way.

 

[ll74]

As if you didn't know that.... Your witty joke just flew over his head, and he decided to wow us with his own 'wit'.
That's why I put him on ignore. That stuff annoys the crap out of me.
If you're trying to destroy threads you dislike, do it in a better way.

Sounds like you enjoy my comments. Good to hear.

Fyi- my comment was my commentary on religion...part of the thread's content. It wasn't meant to, nor did it contribute to destroying anything.

 

[JohnEngelman]

I thought you were renard_ruse's alt.
but now I'm convinced you're not. Saw his last thread?

No.

I am a Christian who admires Jews, respects Judaism, and loves Israel.

I like to go on anti-Jewish websites and write about how intelligence, successful, and prosperous Jews are.

I get banned pretty quickly.

 

[JohnEngelman]

I knew the Torah was the first 5 Books of the Old Testament. But I didn't know the history behind them. This ties some of the loose pieces together, and opens the door to some other options.

I find it funny, how our Fascist racists hate the Jewish religion...yet Christianity is built from the same 5 books. What we know...none of it is based on the "word of God"...but on what was an oral history of what was held as the word of God. Today...we see the lies in Trumpism.

Customer Review​

John Engelman
5.0 out of 5 stars Who Wrote the Torah?
Reviewed in the United States on October 16, 2014

Who Wrote the Bible? Is really about who wrote the Torah. The Torah consists of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. For the Jews the Torah is the holiest part of the Holy Scriptures. Christians refer to these five books as the Pentateuch.

For most of the last two thousand years the Torah was attributed to Moses. Fundamentalist Protestants still believe that Moses wrote the Torah. Nevertheless, over the centuries perceptive readers detected evidence that Moses probably did not write all of it.

For example, Deuteronomy ends with an account of Moses' death. Chapter 36 of Genesis has a list of Edomite kings who lived after Moses' death.

More recently various scholars noticed that the Torah would often tell the same story twice, with different theological implications each time. For example, in Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 plants are created first, then animals, then humans. In Genesis 2:4 - 4:26 Adam is created, then plants, then animals, then Eve.

In this case God is named Elohim in the first telling of the creation story and Yahweh in the second telling. Elohim includes the name El. El was the king of the Canaanite gods. Yahweh appears to be a name that is unique to the Hebrews. When the same story is told twice it is usually the case that God is given a different one of those two names each time.

In Prolegomena to the History of Israel, published in 1882 Julius Wellhausen summed up previous findings with what has been called "the Documentary Thesis." According to the Documentary Thesis the Torah originally consisted of four documents. These he names J, E, D, and P. These four were eventually combined by one who is called the Redactor. J was written first, during or shortly after the reign of King Solomon. After Solomon's death the empire David conquered was divided into the Northern Kingdom, which was also called Israel, and the Southern Kingdom, which was also called Judah. Descendants of David continued to reign in Judah, until the Babylonian Captivity, which began in 597 BC.

E was written in the Northern Kingdom sometime after J. D consisted of most of Deuteronomy, and was discovered during reign of King Josiah, who ruled Judah from 641 to 609 BC. P was believed to have been written after the Babylonian Captivity, which ended in 530 BC. D and P deal with Hebrew laws and religious ceremonies.

In Who Wrote the Bible Richard Elliott Friedman made two important modifications of the Documentary Thesis. First, he dated P to the reign of King Hezekiah who ruled Judah from 715 to 686 BC. Second, he explained the writing of E, D, and P in terms of a rivalry between two Israelite families of high priests. One of these families consisted of descendants of Zadok. The other consisted of descendants of Abiathar. Zadok and Abiathar were the high priests of Israel during the reign of David.

Israelite priests were different than Jewish rabbis. One becomes a rabbi. The Israelite priesthood was a hereditary post. Among Orthodox Jews men whose last names are Cohen, or something similar like Cowen, are still considered to be Jewish priests. They have special roles to play in synagogue ceremonies. DNA testing indicates that most of these men have DNA markers that point to a man who lived in Israel three thousand years ago.

When David died there was a power struggle between Solomon and his half brother Amnon. Zadok supported Solomon. Abiathar supported Amnon. After Solomon won the power struggle and became King, he had Amnon executed, and exiled Abiathar.

After Solomon died the Northern Kingdom seceded. Friedman argues that the descendants of Abiathar expected members of their family to become high priests of the Northern Kingdom. When this did not happen, one of them articulated his disappointment by writing E.

Friedman uses the story of Moses destroying the golden calf on Mt. Sinai to illustrate his point. The first king of the Northern Kingdom was Jeroboam. Jeroboam established religious centers at Dan and Beth-El. In each center Jeroboam had a golden calf built. Friedman argues that the family of Abiathar believed that members of the family should have been established as high priests at those religious centers. However they were not. When a descendant of Abiathar wrote about Moses destroying the golden calf at Mt. Sinai he expressed what he wanted to do with the golden calves at Dan and Beth-El.

1 Chronicles 6:3 - 6:8 traces the ancestry of Zadok back to Aaron, the brother of Moses. However, it lists Zadok as the son of Ahitub, the son of Amariah.

1 Samuel 22:20 says that Abiathar is the son of Ahimelech, the son of Ahitub. These may be two different men named Ahitub. Nevertheless, Ahitub is never listed as the son of any man other than Amariah. Zadok may be the son of the same man who is the grandfather of Abiathar.

Friedman claims that Abiathar was probably descended from Moses. This is perhaps the weakest part of Friedman's thesis. Abiathar is nowhere named as a descendant of Moses. One would expect such an august ancestry to be mentioned. It is very possible that Zadok's father was Abiathar's grandfather. Friedman ought to have mentioned this in his book.

However, Friedman makes a more plausible claim that the Redactor was a descendant of Zadok. He would have had the incentive to remove from the E and D documents any mention of Abiathar's ancestry. In a way the Old Testament resembles a Soviet history book that was re written and edited at the ascension of each dictator in order to deprecate the dictator's rivals for power.

If Zadok and Abiathar each traced their ancestry back to Aaron this would not weaken Friedman's central argument. What matters is that the descendants of Zadok and the descendants of Abiathar were rival families of priests and that their rivalry was behind the composition of E, P, and D. Friedman argues that a descendant of Abiathar wrote E and D, and that a descendant of Zadok wrote P. Friedman also argues that Jeremiah, who he thinks was a descendant of Abiathar, wrote the final version of I Kings and II Kings, and that Ezra, a descendant of Zadok, was the Redactor who combined J, E, P, and D after the end of the Babylonian Captivity.

Jews and Christians who encounter the Documentary Thesis for the first time sometimes find it disturbing. This is because it diminishes the importance of Moses and of divine inspiration. Nevertheless, it is probably the case that most Jewish and Christian seminaries teach it. A Roman Catholic translation of the Bible, The New Jerusalem Bible, and a Jewish translation, The Jewish Study Bible, both incorporate the Documentary Thesis in their introductions to the Torah, or to the "Pentateuch" as it is called by Christians.

There are Fundamentalist Bible scholars. These scholars have advanced degrees in Biblical subjects from accredited universities. They can read the ancient languages. They study the findings of Biblical archaeology. However, they approach their studies with the intention to prove the inerrancy of the Bible. To an extent we all do this. We have beliefs we enjoy and are comfortable with. We would rather confirm those beliefs than look for reasons to abandon them.

Nevertheless, the non Fundamentalist Bible scholars make an effort to reason from factual premises to logical conclusions. However comforting to many, Jewish and Christian Fundamentalism requires one to believe that the earth, and probably the universe, are less than eight thousand years old. Jewish and Christian modernism are efforts to reconcile Jewish and Christian faith with scientific theories that have been proven beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt.

7 people found this helpful

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Jews have a very different relationship to Torah than Christians do, something that many Christians (and even culturally Christian atheists) get wrong.

The Talmudic tradition teaches that Torah is open to multiple interpretations and should be argued over. My favorite story from the Talmud is the Oven of Akhnai, which sums up the Jewish attitude perfectly.

“My children have defeated me!”

 

[Bray123]

I happened to be reading an old story today.
A baby boy was born. Fearful for his future he was cast into the water in a wooden chest with his mother. They were washed ashore on an island where they were taken in by a fisherman who raised the boy to manhood.

Does this sound vaguely familiar? The boy was the Greek legendary figure Perseus. There are few original stories in the Bible, Torah or anywhere else.

 

[jaF0]

There are only superficial differences between the big 3

Tora, Tora, Tora.

No differences there.

 

[oggbashan]

The history of the Bible is an interesting subject that has been studied many times over the centuries. Even the compilers of the King James Bible knew their version was flawed. It was designed to be read aloud from a pulpit or lectern and that affected word choice. What should or should not be in the Apochrophya is still debated.

What we do know is that the modern Bible has little in common with the versions of the first few centuries after Christ. It wasn't until Pope Innocent 1 that a standard version of the books in the New Testament was established, replacing variations used in various regions.

 

[JohnEngelman]

That's not his real name.

If that is directed at me, John Engelman is my real name.

 

[ll74]

If that is directed at me, John Engelman is my real name.

Sure it is

 

[JohnEngelman]

Jews have a very different relationship to Torah than Christians do, something that many Christians (and even culturally Christian atheists) get wrong.

The Talmudic tradition teaches that Torah is open to multiple interpretations and should be argued over. My favorite story from the Talmud is the Oven of Akhnai, which sums up the Jewish attitude perfectly.

“My children have defeated me!”

As I mentioned in this thread, I have a high opinion of Jews and their religion. Nevertheless, there are parts of the Torah that should not be taken literally. For example Numbers 15:32-36 says:

"And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses."

That seems a bit harsh. A day of rest is a good idea. It was a particularly good idea for the Israelite peasants of the Old Testament. They were subsistence farmers who exerted themselves physically as much as athletes in training. Athletes take at least one day of the week off. Boxing trainers tell their boxers, "Don't leave your fight in the gym."

Nevertheless, Israel could not survive if no one worked on Saturday. There would be no electricity, no communications, no public transportation, etc. Palestinian terrorists would have a field day.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Sure it is

I am sure that ll74 is on your birth certificate. It is a name everyone will remember.

 

[ll74]

I am sure that ll74 is on your birth certificate. It is a name everyone will remember.

Most people here can't even reference it properly

Thankfully my employer has it spelled correctly, for tax reasons

 

[Deadbed1968]

It's simple....Christians believe the bible is the word of their god, when in reality the scripture was written and curated by political forces. The history is interesting to see which forces won and which ones lost....

I think you hit the nail on the head! This is also why women are denigrated so much in the holy books. Also why sec is portrayed as such a taboo.