Let's talk about guns, shootings, solutions and idiotic suggestions

[Dribble]

You think that New York plans to secede?

SCOTUS just overturned all their gun laws. Why would any state that doesn't want 18 yr olds with anger issues or history of violence being allowed to carry (hidden) without a license?

 

[Dribble]

Funny how States get to choose Women's rights but can't choose gun laws. Both are protected in the Constitution

 

[dmonty]

Funny how States get to choose Women's rights but can't choose gun laws. Both are protected in the Constitution

Identify the exact "amendment" or Article/Clause that makes an abortion a civil liberty protected via the US Constitution..... the 2nd, 9th, and 10th explicitly mention we the people and guns shall not be infringed by the Federal, or State governments.

The Sates do get to decide what is a homicide, and can determine what is justifiable and which isn't - most states do identify abortions, as justifiable actions. The Federal government can't mandate that all states must adopt the same definitions, so each state gets to decide for itself and its citizens which deaths are acceptable and which are not and the penalties for violating those states laws.

 

[dmonty]

When I researched firearm related deaths per 100K. I get a number of 8.3 per 100K for South Africa. The USA comes in at 12.3 and Honduras leads the world at 60 per 100K. Now there are many metrics used around firearms and death, so clearly people can find different ratios.

However, no matter which source is used, the USA leads the world when countries which have "war zones" or "political instability" results are removed. Countries that have strict firearm regulations or out right bans have the lowest rates.

No one can argue that firearm regulations do not lower the number of firearm related deaths. The proof is there in every single study.

ah yes, the old "metrics" .. yes the US has the highest per capita firearms death rates, for a variety of reasons - the US has guns lots of guns over 400,000,000 in citizens hands but less then 0.0055% are used to kill someone, the other countries not so much India comes in Global ranked at second place with only 71,000,000 guns (legal and otherwise) in civilians hands, If you added up all the private civilian firearms for the the next 9 countries (the 2nd through 10th place total civilian firearms) you'd have roughly 253,000,000 firearms, slightly more then half of what the US alone has.

So just on that metric alone, the US is always going to be highest rate, just like we would be at a higher rate for murders by car when comparing the US to countries with no or fewer cars then the US.

Looking at he other countries preferred choice of murder weapon, knives, machetes, bats have a much higher rate of incidence then they do in the US. Taking away guns only changes the type of weapon not the motivations or root causes.

https://www.statista.com/chart/23192/estimated-number-of-civilian-held-legal-and-illicit-firearms/

Now the metric to really look at is homicides (by all types of weapons) as a percentage of deaths, in the US it is below 0.6%. The US typically sees has about 30,000 murders per year and less then 19,000 of all US Murders are from guns - also bear in mind the majority of the US murders occur from criminal activity such as gangs and drugs (turf disputes or honor disputes) and mostly in the 16-24 age demographic (that the mainstream news media likes to sensationalize as "child aged" giving the false impression of children being harmed). By many law enforcement estimates and reports, upwards of 60% of all homicides are connected to criminal (gang/drug) activities.

 

[ll74]

You bring up a good point.....homicides which are not part of criminal activity (I.e.drugs, gangs) are the ones most people are working towards stopping, since that's the case where the majority of innocent bystanders are involved.

 

[dmonty]

You bring up a good point.....homicides which are not part of criminal activity (I.e.drugs, gangs) are the ones most people are working towards stopping, since that's the case where the majority of innocent bystanders are involved.

And stopping them by forcing them to use a different tool/tactic or stopping them with understanding the root cause of the violence, disarming innocent people won't fix the problem of homicides, it will only make more victims.

 

[ll74]

And stopping them by forcing them to use a different tool/tactic or stopping them with understanding the root cause of the violence, disarming innocent people won't fix the problem of homicides, it will only make more victims.

Taking a weapon of mass killing out of their hands and either giving them pause or replacing it with something less deadly will reduce the murders of innocent people.

 

[dmonty]

Taking a weapon of mass killing out of their hands and either giving them pause or replacing it with something less deadly will reduce the murders of innocent people.

The mass killing weapons such as bombs, and grenades, generally don't murder people in the US are in fact exceedingly rare.

 

[LukSkyFokker]

The mass killing weapons such as bombs, and grenades, generally don't murder people in the US are in fact exceedingly rare.

19 dead children is a mass killing by a WMD.

 

[ll74]

The mass killing weapons such as bombs, and grenades, generally don't murder people in the US are in fact exceedingly rare.

A gunman used two rifles to kill 19 kids.

I don't give a shit how rare they are.

 

[dmonty]

19 dead children is a mass killing by a WMD.

I must have missed this news story, where were 19 kids killed by WMD's?

 

[dmonty]

I must have missed this news story, where were 19 kids killed by WMD's?

point is that taking firearms, even rifles away from entirely innocent people with no due process and who want one for self-defense does not take the firearms away from those with intent to commit murder or other crimes.
With that its also important to note that a minimum of over 800k defensive uses of a firearm occur each and every year (upwards of 3 million defensive uses per year), compared to the less then 18k per yar of criminal usage. Would seem in terms of risk, you have far fewer victims of the hoplophobic pejorative "gun violence" with more people having more guns.

 

[LukSkyFokker]

I must have missed this news story, where were 19 kids killed by WMD's?

You must've.

 

[rockcasbah]

19 dead children is a mass killing by a WMD.

Luk contributing to the “idiotic suggestion” part of the thread title.

 

[ll74]

point is that taking firearms, even rifles away from entirely innocent people with no due process and who want one for self-defense does not take the firearms away from those with intent to commit murder or other crimes.
With that its also important to note that a minimum of over 800k defensive uses of a firearm occur each and every year (upwards of 3 million defensive uses per year), compared to the less then 18k per yar of criminal usage. Would seem in terms of risk, you have far fewer victims of the hoplophobic pejorative "gun violence" with more people having more guns.

Taking guns away from people who may intend to do harm via red flag laws is better than not doing so. A person with a knife is less likely to kill multiple people and a beginner with a knife is much less likely to kill anyone than a beginner with a gun.

The gun as a weapon for people intending to do harm is the biggest factor to success versus other weapons.....

The problem here is that the dead people don't have any rights....your rights end where others begin

 

[dmonty]

Taking guns away from people who may intend to do harm via red flag laws is better than not doing so. A person with a knife is less likely to kill multiple people and a beginner with a knife is much less likely to kill anyone than a beginner with a gun.

The gun as a weapon for people intending to do harm is the biggest factor to success versus other weapons.....

The problem here is that the dead people don't have any rights....your rights end where others begin

Red Flag laws, have taken away more guns from the innocent turned in by a unhappy neighbor or ex-spouse/roomate than has ever prevented any criminal actions. NY State's own Red Flag laws have stopped or prevented 0 shootings while having been on the books for over 10 years now.

NY's most egregious action:
Donald Montgomery’s lawsuit contends that Gov. Andrew Cuomo and other state officials violated his Second Amendment rights when his guns were seized after a brief hospital stay for insomnia. Montgomery, a cop for 30 years and a U.S. Navy veteran, brought the lawsuit in Rochester Federal Court on Dec. 17, 2014

 

[Bray123]

It's false to pretend that taking guns away merely makes people look elsewhere for a weapon (therefore there's no point in even trying).
The overall homicide rate for the US is 4.96 per 100K. The same rate for the UK is 1.2 per 100K.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country

Having easy access to an efficient way of doing anything is the best way of ensuring that thing happens.

 

[LukSkyFokker]

Luk contributing to the “idiotic suggestion” part of the thread title.

It wasn't a suggestion, Webster.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

i gave you the murder rate per capita, not just firearms.

I missed that you were talking totals. I assumed only firearm deaths.

Our savages do not need firearms to murder. If they want to kill, they will do it, firearm or no firearm.

Interesting take you have on "savages". I agree you don't need any weapons to kill, but the point of this thread is about weapons. Firearms of all types to be exact.

The USA has the same population group that we do, which is prone to violence and crime.

The above is a very Racist statement. I'll give you the opportunity to clear that up, prior to lumping you into the racist group here on Lit.

This argument then comes down to do a few rotten apples (your mass shooters) ruin the barrel? That question cannot really be answered without weighing in does 1 life mean so much it affects the lives of hundreds of millions of others? Is there a greater good to gun ownership to weigh up? If you weigh freedom vs life and life trumps all, then should cars be banned because some people die in car accidents? The whole issue of weighing up firearm ownership vs some people use them to kill others is a very complex one. It is not as simple as guns kill people. Ban them.

Note, the proof exists, that nations with strict firearm regulations have fewer firearm related deaths. Period. The numbers do not lie.
Now, nowhere do I advocate for a total ban on all types of firearms. There is a balance that can be found. Here in the 10th most armed country in the world, our rate of firearm deaths is 1/6th of that of the US. I have access to basically ever type of rifle or handgun that my American counterparts do. So why the 1/6 vs the US number of firearm related deaths of all types?
If it's not firearm regulations, then WTF is it?

Here is just one example of where a man saved the lives of his family by having a firearm. there are many many
https://rekord.co.za/169165/two-sho...v3uCjEiTHaKWOrGV4xoKBDXDZMtZ6xSFTLIl9lz8cANKU

The above is a bullshit deflection from sane ans sensible regulations about the access, training, use and licensing of firearms.

 

[ll74]

Red Flag laws, have taken away more guns from the innocent turned in by a unhappy neighbor or ex-spouse/roomate than has ever prevented any criminal actions. NY State's own Red Flag laws have stopped or prevented 0 shootings while having been on the books for over 10 years now.

NY's most egregious action:
Donald Montgomery’s lawsuit contends that Gov. Andrew Cuomo and other state officials violated his Second Amendment rights when his guns were seized after a brief hospital stay for insomnia. Montgomery, a cop for 30 years and a U.S. Navy veteran, brought the lawsuit in Rochester Federal Court on Dec. 17, 2014

Sure they have. And those people get them back once they've proven they weren't a danger. I'd prefer that option to 19 dead kids. 10 shootings may very well be 190 kids

 

[butters]

I missed that you were talking totals. I assumed only firearm deaths.

Interesting take you have on "savages". I agree you don't need any weapons to kill, but the point of this thread is about weapons. Firearms of all types to be exact.

The above is a very Racist statement. I'll give you the opportunity to clear that up, prior to lumping you into the racist group here on Lit.

look no further than his comment here, Fuzzy; it tells you all you need to know:

The South Africa’s homicide rates are indicative of a warzone or a country in crisis. This is post 1994. It was much lower during apartheid. And this with white people armed. In fact I often didnt lock my doors and streets were safe, with children and wolmen walking alone, and no homes had walls.The General murder rate was about 90% less and farm murders in particular, were basically non-existent. Overall crime rate increased with about 500%.

 

[dmonty]

Sure they have. And those people get them back once they've proven they weren't a danger. I'd prefer that option to 19 dead kids. 10 shootings may very well be 190 kids

And if the teachers and staff weren't illegally and unconstitutional disarmed the death toll would have been far lower, maybe "0" or just the "1 dead shooter" no other victims.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

ah yes, the old "metrics" .. yes the US has the highest per capita firearms death rates, for a variety of reasons -

Well facts are facts, you can't just keep making excuses about how the USA is handcuffed and can't change it.
People lives have value, and there is no way a society needs to be handcuffed because the minority doesn't want to change, out of fear.

the US has guns lots of guns over 400,000,000 in citizens hands but less then 0.0055% are used to kill someone, the other countries not so much India comes in Global ranked at second place with only 71,000,000 guns (legal and otherwise) in civilians hands, If you added up all the private civilian firearms for the the next 9 countries (the 2nd through 10th place total civilian firearms) you'd have roughly 253,000,000 firearms, slightly more then half of what the US alone has.

I live in the 10th most civilian armed country, 34.7 per 100 people. 2.6 deaths per 100,000 vs the USA with 13.6 per 100,000. The total number has nothing to do with firearm deaths.

So just on that metric alone, the US is always going to be highest rate, just like we would be at a higher rate for murders by car when comparing the US to countries with no or fewer cars then the US.

The total number of firearms has nothing to do with firearm deaths.

Looking at he other countries preferred choice of murder weapon, knives, machetes, bats have a much higher rate of incidence then they do in the US. Taking away guns only changes the type of weapon not the motivations or root causes.

Oh look over here....deflect away from the subject matter.

https://www.statista.com/chart/23192/estimated-number-of-civilian-held-legal-and-illicit-firearms/

Now the metric to really look at is homicides (by all types of weapons) as a percentage of deaths, in the US it is below 0.6%. The US typically sees has about 30,000 murders per year and less then 19,000 of all US Murders are from guns - also bear in mind the majority of the US murders occur from criminal activity such as gangs and drugs (turf disputes or honor disputes) and mostly in the 16-24 age demographic (that the mainstream news media likes to sensationalize as "child aged" giving the false impression of children being harmed). By many law enforcement estimates and reports, upwards of 60% of all homicides are connected to criminal (gang/drug) activities.

743 total firearm homicides in Canada.

All of the above, also applies here.

You keep deflecting by bringing up interesting talking points, which have fuck all to do with firearm regulations that would lower this number.

You obviously feel it is perfectly ok to have 19,384 homicides by firearms(2020 numbers). Myself I'd like that number to be zero.I see nothing wrong with that mindset. You however are willing to overlook, ignore,deny, or throw your hands in the air and yell,why do people complain, after all mathematically it is a minimal amount of lives being lost, given the number of "guns" and population.

 

[dmonty]

Well facts are facts, you can't just keep making excuses about how the USA is handcuffed and can't change it.
People lives have value, and there is no way a society needs to be handcuffed because the minority doesn't want to change, out of fear.


I live in the 10th most civilian armed country, 34.7 per 100 people. 2.6 deaths per 100,000 vs the USA with 13.6 per 100,000. The total number has nothing to do with firearm deaths.

The total number of firearms has nothing to do with firearm deaths.

Oh look over here....deflect away from the subject matter.

743 total firearm homicides in Canada.

All of the above, also applies here.

You keep deflecting by bringing up interesting talking points, which have fuck all to do with firearm regulations that would lower this number.

You obviously feel it is perfectly ok to have 19,384 homicides by firearms(2020 numbers). Myself I'd like that number to be zero.I see nothing wrong with that mindset. You however are willing to overlook, ignore,deny, or throw your hands in the air and yell,why do people complain, after all mathematically it is a minimal amount of lives being lost, given the number of "guns".

Not deflection, the US also has at a minimum of over 900,000 self defense gun uses every year, and many studies indicate that it is upwards of over 3 million every year. So since 0 can never be achieved, your acceptance of disarming free people would increase the murder rate to possibly over 900,000 extra every year. More lives are saved with guns than are lost.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

And if the teachers and staff weren't illegally and unconstitutional disarmed the death toll would have been far lower, maybe "0" or just the "1 dead shooter" no other victims.

My niece is a teacher in the US. She does not want to be a cop. She went to school, got her degree to teach. Is that so fucking hard to understand? You think she should be armed, to be the "good person with the gun". Well her answer to you is..."you do it! If I have to, I quit".