Crazy grammar

[Trionyx]

I would be interested in hearing what grammatical errors drive other authors crazy. I can live with a lot, but the thing that causes me to run screaming from the room is the inappropriate use of pronouns when not in the singular form. An example I read today was: He gave it to she and I. Such writing makes me want to send them to the black/eraser board and write one hundred times: He gave it to her and me.

 

[NotWise]

I would be interested in hearing what grammatical errors drive other authors crazy. I can live with a lot, but the thing that causes me to run screaming from the room is the inappropriate use of pronouns when not in the singular form. An example I read today was: He gave it to she and I. Such writing makes me want to send them to the black/eraser board and write one hundred times: He gave it to her and me.

He gave it to us.

 

[KeithD]

Didn't give it to that other guy in the room, though.

 

[NotWise]

Didn't give it to that other guy in the room, though.

He was being selfish.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I tend to be fairly forgiving if there's an occasional grammatical error. If it's diabolically bad, I'm usually out of the story as unreadable.

 

[SimonDoom]

I wouldn't say anything drives me crazy. I'm probably more of a grammar cop than 98% of readers here, but my attitude is that violaters should be given a warning and sent on their way rather than sent to jail. Grammar matters, but storytelling matters a lot more. So I'll forgive a really great story that has some grammatical slip-ups. But if the grammar problems are bad enough I can't keep reading the story.

Rather than talk about being driven crazy, I'll note that having been an avid reader here for nearly 20 years the following are the three errors I see most often that knock down my ability to enjoy the story:

1. Unconscious tense-shifting. This one does set me a bit on edge: stories that slip carelessly between present tense and past tense. It's really common.

2. Unconscious point-of-view shifting. This is another one that's really common and the author seems to have no idea he/she is doing it. Shifting from "I" to "he/she."

3. Improper dialogue format. This might be the most common defect in Literotica stories, and it's one that takes me out of the story very quickly. Many authors seem to have no idea how to format dialogue -- when and how to use commas and/or dialogue tags, for example. There are plenty of how-to guides and good examples of proper dialogue format in stories here at Literotica. Aspiring authors should read them and heed them.

 

[Jada59]

I would be interested in hearing what grammatical errors drive other authors crazy. I can live with a lot, but the thing that causes me to run screaming from the room is the inappropriate use of pronouns when not in the singular form. An example I read today was: He gave it to she and I. Such writing makes me want to send them to the black/eraser board and write one hundred times: He gave it to her and me.

Yep, yep, yep!

I had someone ask for advice. They said something like.... If my boyfriend met your family and didn't like them, would he stop talking me?

So being the smartass that I am, I asked why he would meet my family and why would that affect him talking to her!

She didn't get it and said they met at BBQ.

Please note, I don't go to BBQs.

 

[XerXesXu]

I would be interested in hearing what grammatical errors drive other authors crazy. I can live with a lot, but the thing that causes me to run screaming from the room is the inappropriate use of pronouns when not in the singular form. An example I read today was: He gave it to she and I. Such writing makes me want to send them to the black/eraser board and write one hundred times: He gave it to her and me.

It's not a grammatical error; if it were you'd be unable to understand what's being said. It's a non-standard construction. It's a usage my friends frequently employ in conversation. It may say a lot about the writer.

When employed in writing it's part of the author's voice. You may not like it, that's a fair comment.

What do you make of the English sub-titles on iQiyi? You should at least be entertained.

 

[XerXesXu]

I would be interested in hearing what grammatical errors drive other authors crazy. I can live with a lot, but the thing that causes me to run screaming from the room is the inappropriate use of pronouns when not in the singular form. An example I read today was: He gave it to she and I. Such writing makes me want to send them to the black/eraser board and write one hundred times: He gave it to her and me.

It's not a grammatical error, it's a non-standard usage; if it were non-grammatical you wouldn't be able to understand what's being said. My friends frequently employ this usage; it may say a lot about who they are and where they are.

When employed in writing it's part of their authorial voice; you may dislike their voice, that would be a fair comment.

What do you make of the English sub-titles on iQiyi? Non-standard, but you should at least find them entertaining.

 

[RichardWark]

There are many, but what comes to mind right now is "its/it's" and "lead/led."

 

[KeithD]

It's not a grammatical error, it's a non-standard usage; if it were non-grammatical you wouldn't be able to understand what's being said. My friends frequently employ this usage; it may say a lot about who they are and where they are.

Umm, no. "He gave it to she and I" is simply not grammatical (unless you have friends named She and I). Grammar isn't determined by whether or not you can understand the phrase.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's not a grammatical error, it's a non-standard usage; if it were non-grammatical you wouldn't be able to understand what's being said. .

Whether one can understand the usage is not the test of whether something is grammatical. I know of no authority that says that. "Me went to the grocery store" is comprehensible. It's also terrible grammar.

"She" and "I" are personal pronouns in the subjective case. In the sentence given by the OP, the correct pronouns must be objective case, because they are objects of the preposition "to": "her" and "me" or, better (as Notwise astutely pointed out), "us."

It's definitely a matter of grammar, not just usage.

 

[Abbafan]

I would be interested in hearing what grammatical errors drive other authors crazy. I can live with a lot, but the thing that causes me to run screaming from the room is the inappropriate use of pronouns when not in the singular form. An example I read today was: He gave it to she and I. Such writing makes me want to send them to the black/eraser board and write one hundred times: He gave it to her and me.

I'm not sure it would be considered a grammatical error, but some writers have a habit of shifting tenses, sometimes frequently. There isn't a point to it that I can see, usually. Sometimes they'll do it mid sentence. My guess is that they think its dramatic, maybe brings a sense of immediacy. They aren't disciplined enough to stay with it though, and slip back into the past tense because it feels more natural, without even realizing it.

Generally, grammatical errors don't bother me too much with these kinds of stories, though, unless the story is just littered with them.

 

[SamScribble]

"She" and "I" are personal pronouns in the subjective case. In the sentence given by the OP, the correct pronouns must be objective case, because they are objects of the preposition "to": "her" and "me" or, better (as Notwise astutely pointed out), "us."

Or, as Joan Didion put it: 'Grammar is a piano I play by ear.' If more people 'listened' to what they wrote, it would all be a bit clearer.

 

[XerXesXu]

Whether one can understand the usage is not the test of whether something is grammatical. I know of no authority that says that. "Me went to the grocery store" is comprehensible. It's also terrible grammar.

"She" and "I" are personal pronouns in the subjective case. In the sentence given by the OP, the correct pronouns must be objective case, because they are objects of the preposition "to": "her" and "me" or, better (as Notwise astutely pointed out), "us."

It's definitely a matter of grammar, not just usage.

I'm not sure what your qualification in linguistics is, grammar is a matter of usage, style guides and dictionaries are guides to consistency. I believe consistency in a literary context is your field of expertise.

'I am taller than she is.'

'I am taller than she.'

'I am taller than her.'

Her and she are interchangeable here.

'Look at thee.'

'Look at you.'

When did you last use the singular?

Famously, 'We are not amused.'

Recently a poster misunderstood when I used 'show us your spine'. He thought I was using a plural, but I was using it in the sense of 'give us a job' or 'give us a moment.'

Grammatical rules are rules of intelligibility, not consistency. The rules of grammar are descriptive, not prescriptive.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

cormac mccarthy must drive youz mental!

 

[ElectricBlue]

Recently a poster misunderstood when I used 'show us you spine'. He thought I was using a plural, but I was using it in the sense of 'give us a job' or 'give us a moment.'

I have no idea what your meaning is, with "show us you spine."

I understand "show some spine" or "show us your spine" - in my mind, similar meanings - but "show us you spine"? You've lost me completely.

 

[XerXesXu]

I have no idea what your meaning is, with "show us you spine."

I understand "show some spine" or "show us your spine" - in my mind, similar meanings - but "show us you spine"? You've lost me completely.

Typo corrected. Thank you for pointing it out

 

[ElectricBlue]

Typo corrected. Thank you for pointing it out

That makes a lot more sense. Given your somewhat cryptic view of grammar, I wasn't sure. I must say, though, I'm with Simon on this one. Grammatical rules provide consistency, and I'd say they are prescriptive. You either have good grammar or you don't. Those who don't won't write with clarity. But I do believe, if you know the rules you can deliberately break them for good effect.

I think, though, that whenever this topic comes up, we're all actually talking about the inarticulate.

 

[XerXesXu]

Given your somewhat cryptic view of grammar,

.

It's pretty much mainstream. I did linguistics as a stream in BSc Cognitive Science and Empirical Method (Dicks' Psychology, as opposed to BA Analytic 'I had a dream', Chicks' Psychology) some 45 years ago. The idea of syntax being innate was on it's way out then, and given the recent leaps forward in AI it's unsustainable that grammar is acquired other than as a result of 'the training set' ie: your grammar is that which your family and community exposed you to as a child.

Simon wrote:

[I know of no authority that says that. "Me went to the grocery store" is comprehensible. It's also terrible grammar.]

Before style guides and dictionaries there was spoken and written communication between communities which was mutually intelligible, though with diverse usages in spelling and syntax. In fact it was probably easier in writing. There are people who lived 10 miles from me, when I was a child, whom I could probably have understood if they'd written down what they were saying.

'I know of no authority that says that.' harks back to the innate and causal theory of grammar.

As for, "Me went to the grocery store"; I knew instantly what it means. Was I wrong? It's simply a non-standard and unfamiliar usage, but the concatenation of words correctly conveys it's meaning. It is intelligible.

 

[TadOverdon]

There are different kinds of grammar. Part of the confusion is probably that when most people use the term "grammar" conversationally they mean to refer to formal grammar as codified and taught in schools.

https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-grammar-1690909

It's a truism of anthropology that native speakers of a language are assumed to be fluent, no matter the idiosyncrasies of their usage and vocabulary.

 

[jaF0]

What I get annoyed with is the nitpickers and their insistence on what is proper. We need to remember two things:

* The majority of writers here are likely amateurs who do not write for anywhere else. They write off the cuff and probably the way they normally speak.

* At least some, maybe more than some are not native English speakers or writers. They may not have a formal education in English or may be using some form of translator that doesn't pick up the nuances of conversational English.


It's fine to goof around on the AH about word combinations that plague us, but when it comes to critiquing stories, it gets into other areas.

 

[SimonDoom]

Grammatical rules are rules of intelligibility, not consistency. The rules of grammar are descriptive, not prescriptive.

I don't know where you get any of this. I get my definition of grammar from the many grammar guides I have, from the definition of the word "grammar" contained in every dictionary I have, from my experience teaching and learning grammar, from my experience as an editor of a professional journal, and from decades of professional writing where following the conventions of good grammar is essential.

I'm not going to get into a descriptive v. prescriptive philosophical debate. I agree grammar is a matter of convention, not, strictly speaking, right and wrong, or because of anything "innate." But your definition of "grammar" is entirely idiosyncratic, and not endorsed by any authority I know of.

Questions of case -- i.e., whether to use "me" or "I" -- are fundamentally questions of grammar.

Merriam-Webster:

"Grammar," according to Merriam-Webster, means, among other things (it's a broad concept):

a: the study of the classes of words, their inflections (see INFLECTION sense 2), and their functions and relations in the sentence
b: a study of what is to be preferred and what avoided in inflection (see INFLECTION sense 2) and syntax (see SYNTAX sense 1)


"Inflection" means

: the change of form that words undergo to mark such distinctions as those of case, gender, number, tense, person, mood, or voice
b: a form, suffix, or element involved in such variation

"Grammar" is not synonymous with "intelligibility."

As a practical, day-to-day matter, grammar is, absolutely, prescriptive. If you don't learn the rules of grammar with at least some degree of proficiency, you won't be eligible to get certain jobs. People will think less of your abilities. Your written work will be rejected (e.g., Literotica). Try telling your prospective employer who doesn't like your grammar that he's being a prescriptivist.

The funny thing about your position is that in a way you are contradictory. You claim not to be a prescriptivist but you simultaneously claim that the word "grammar" must be understood in a very narrow, peculiar way and that any other way is wrong. The word "grammar" encompasses a very broad range of conventions and rules, or whatever you want to call them. That's the way people actually use the word. Nobody actually uses it the way you do.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

My biggest problem right now is passive voice. I'm slowly getting out of the habit of its use.

Other than that I have Grammarly to help me on all the other grammar problems I might have.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

My biggest problem right now is passive voice. I'm slowly getting out of the habit of its use.

Other than that I have Grammarly to help me on all the other grammar problems I might have.

'by zombies' works for me.

...and Word has a function that spots it, too.