Are DNRs Binding?

[jaF0]

So as not to derail the other thread ....


If you have a DNR, Living Will, Medical Directive or whatever it's called wherever you are, is it legally binding? Are providers required to follow it? If they don't, or refuse, what happens? If you have what should be a life ending event and they 'save' you, can you sue? Can they be made to cover all related expenses?

 

[dolf]

I was taught that I could be charged with assault if I knowingly ignored one, as it's a physical act for which they have expressly denied consent to.

 

[oggbashan]

No.

The attending physician has the final say. Obviously he/she will consider the expressed wish but it is entirely a matter for medical judgement at the time.

 

[dolf]

No.

The attending physician has the final say. Obviously he/she will consider the expressed wish but it is entirely a matter for medical judgement at the time.

I can think of a few reasons why they're ignored...

First, in the panic of an emergency, it's possible nobody even thought about it.
Or the doctor's own fear of death might cloud their thinking. They might also see death as failure.
Or the reaction of the family might sway them. It must be incredibly hard to do nothing when a family is begging you to do something.

 

[jaF0]

Or the reaction of the family might sway them. It must be incredibly hard to do nothing when a family is begging you to do something.

The legally printed and signed wish of the individual must outweigh the verbal wishes of anyone else. There are doctors who tend to refuse to honor them due to their 'faith'. They should be stripped of their licenses.

 

[jaF0]

I can see in an accident that caused death but where EMS and/or ER staff resuscitated on short notice without knowing the existence of the document. But in those cases, there should be no charges invoiced to the patient or their insurance.

 

[dolf]

The legally printed and signed wish of the individual must outweigh the verbal wishes of anyone else. There are doctors who tend to refuse to honor them due to their 'faith'. They should be stripped of their licenses.

I agree. It's the whole "next of kin" issue though. If you name a next of kin, someone to represent your wishes if/when you aren't capable of expressing them, they take their opinions into consideration.

(That's why I had my ex on my paperwork even after we broke up. No way on earth would I trust my mother with that one!)

 

[oggbashan]

There is a difference between a simple action such as giving oxygen and heroic measures to save a person that includes external heart massage that breaks ribs. While a simple action could be taken even in the presence of a DNR, a massive intervention should not happen.

As with many medical decisions, it is a matter of degree and judgment.

While deliberately ignoring a DNR could be actionable, denying simple measures could also be wrong. The physician has seconds to decide and his/her actions could be argued for days in a court of law. It should be a matter of what is reasonable at the time.

 

[dolf]

A case that still makes me fume...
98, advanced dementia, in constant pain, housebound, incontinent. When in hospital with a simple urinary infection, her heart stops.

After she got home, i noted a drastic deterioration in her mental and physical health, whilst her family told me (with wide smiles and buckets of praise for the doctors) how they had fought for a full 30 minutes to bring her back from her peaceful death.

You're not allowed to punch people out for being selfish, ignorant cunts. You're not even allowed to swear at them. And tracking down the doctors in order to drag them back to that house and rub their god complex noses in the extra pain and distress they've created, is most definitely frowned upon.

I believe every doctor should do a stint at the grubby end, so that they can see that the quality of life they're bringing back is more important than feeling like they won that battle.

 

[silver gurl]

People actually tattoo their DNR. Or so says google.
Huh.

 

[jaF0]

A case that still makes me fume...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo_case



Differs a bit from the topic since she never personally signed a DNR, but still ....

 

[Fingerfuxs]

So as not to derail the other thread ....


If you have a DNR, Living Will, Medical Directive or whatever it's called wherever you are, is it legally binding? Are providers required to follow it? If they don't, or refuse, what happens? If you have what should be a life ending event and they 'save' you, can you sue? Can they be made to cover all related expenses?

How courteous of U thank you.

Yours is actully more foucused on a actual medical DNR rather then our virtual soles.

As I understand it , if a person is unable to make life and death decisions and they also have a medical advocate picked. That person has the finale say as to the use of their DNR wishes.

It only makes sense that if they took the trouble to make out a written DNR that they also choose a medical advocate in writing at the same time. Both would have had to be notarized to be legal.

With the world being in a pandemic at the moment it's a fantastic thread theme. If for no other reason then to cause a viewer that might peek in to address the issue with loved ones in a real world conversation.

P.S. I don't scare easy. But your avatar is scary as fuck .....kudos

 

[dolf]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo_case

Differs a bit from the topic since she never personally signed a DNR, but still ....

The brutality people will inflict on those they love.

It's an appalling flaw in the way our societies deal with death. Or don't deal. People really do need to grow the fuck up.

People actually tattoo their DNR. Or so says google.
Huh.

I remember some ancient lady talking on daytime tv about her first ever tattoo. DO NOT RESUSCITATE in bold, across her chest, where no medic would miss it.

 

[fgarvb1]

My Mother had a DNR.

However, her heart Doctor was standing bedside when she crashed.

He told us that since he was on the scene he had NO choice but try and revive her even against her wishes.

He advised us that She almost certainly would not Live over another forty eight hours.

She did come to long enough for us all to say Goodbye...But we knew that often people that are dying have a brief surge of consciousness before they crash for good.

We were grateful for that chance.

 

[DeYaKen]

People actually tattoo their DNR. Or so says google.
Huh.

Wouldn't be any good in the UK. If it is not recorded in the patients notes and the order itself cannot be produced the medics must act as if no such order was ever made.

 

[dolf]

Wouldn't be any good in the UK. If it is not recorded in the patients notes and the order itself cannot be produced the medics must act as if no such order was ever made.

However, if it is recorded in the notes, it's going to be another reminder to the doctors that they should think hard before they start, because this patient felt very strongly.

 

[Saint_Ann]

Most people dont walk around with a copy in their pocket. Mayo clinic has mine on file tho I probably wont be back there. The med-info "cloud" isnt really in full force as to sharing med history.

 

[dolf]

Most people dont walk around with a copy in their pocket. Mayo clinic has mine on file tho I probably wont be back there. The med-info "cloud" isnt really in full force as to sharing med history.

In the uk, because of the nhs, it's got to be a hell of a lot easier to get a person's records in a limited time.

 

[Saint_Ann]

In the uk, because of the nhs, it's got to be a hell of a lot easier to get a person's records in a limited time.

That and every hacker that wants it.

 

[islandman]

No.

The attending physician has the final say. Obviously he/she will consider the expressed wish but it is entirely a matter for medical judgement at the time.

Yes, they are, at least in the U.S. To be clear, DNR orders over here cover CPR only.

The only reason medical staff would ignore it is if they were not aware that an order was in place. That's why it is suggested that people with a DNR order wear a specific purple bracelet to denote said order. With full knowledge, medical staff cannot ignore a DNR without putting their license on the line.

Some people get a tattoo on their chest, but, as if often the case with humans, we change our minds, and tattoos are hard to erase.

 

[dolf]

That and every hacker that wants it.

Modern life! There's not much that a dedicated hacker couldn't find on all of us.

 

[Saint_Ann]

Modern life! There's not much that a dedicated hacker couldn't find on all of us.

Hospital and Dr office portals are the least secure data points there are. No budget fot it. It takes 3 days to get a hospital IT ticket processed. Its a problem.

 

[jaF0]

With full knowledge, medical staff cannot ignore a DNR without putting their license on the line.

If they bring you back against your will, I think they should be on the hook for all related medical expense and all of your life expenses for as long as you live, including your rent/mortgage, vehicle or transportation, food, taxes, etc.

 

[HisArpy]

DNR's are a legal sticky wicket.

One the one hand, a doctor's failure to follow a DNR, or even seek a court order allowing him to disregard a DNR, is a violation of the patient's instruction. This is malpractice.

On the other hand, in most states, suicide is still illegal. At it's core, a DNR is a form of suicide.

And then there's the fact that if the doctor doesn't follow the DNR, the patient has basically no recourse. There is legal precedent which says you don't have a remedy for "wrongful life."

 

[islandman]

If they bring you back against your will, I think they should be on the hook for all related medical expense and all of your life expenses for as long as you live, including your rent/mortgage, vehicle or transportation, food, taxes, etc.

When someone obtains a DNR order - which has to be signed off on by the person's doctor - the onus is on that person to take every measure to record that order with their local healthcare systems. Same thing for a living will.

Most people, however, think that their DNR is magically tied to their DNA or SS#.