Descriptions of women's clothing

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

First it was the spelling police and then the grammar police and now it's the fashion police. Will the madness ever stop?

If the fashion police ask about me, I'd greatly appreciate it if you told them I said you haven't seen me.

 

[Piscator]

I tend to skip over the clothing descriptions suspect many male reader do the same. I spend a bit more time on the lingerie although I appreciate this thread for elaborating differences of corset, bustier and long form bra.

But I stop skipping when the story gets to the description of the naked woman. And this is where I get angry as many male writers don't seem to the difference between a vulva and vagina

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I tend to skip over the clothing descriptions suspect many male reader do the same. I spend a bit more time on the lingerie although I appreciate this thread for elaborating differences of corset, bustier and long form bra.

But I stop skipping when the story gets to the description of the naked woman. And this is where I get angry as many male writers don't seem to the difference between a vulva and vagina

Sadly, quite a few female writers have the same difficulty.

 

[gunhilltrain]

It's used mockingly in a chapter title, and metaphorically for the overall lifestyle.

Wow, this thread is really drifting.

I'd have to check again, but I think that the idea is that "trainspotting" (being interested in trains) and being a drug addict are equally unproductive activities. I wouldn't agree with that.

I did find, "Trainspotting is a colloquial 80's british term that means 'being obsessed with any one trivial topic' ".

Well, trivial compared to what? I'm probably going to get jumped on for this, but how about the British (and many other's) obsession with football/soccer? If you want to break it down, it's just a bunch of guys kicking a ball around. But people have been killed at soccer matches if something sets them off.

I know that isn't really fair. American's interest in sports can be over-the-top too. I remember being a young teenager, trying to memorize the players on every team in the NFL.

 

[Emirus]

"Jock" is a high school-ism for an athlete. It usually refers to them as part of a social clique rather than as an athlete, with a crude and boisterous implication.

Thank you. I appreciate the clarification.

 

[Emirus]

American's interest in sports can be over-the-top too. I remember being a young teenager, trying to memorize the players on every team in the NFL.

I love going to American football matches when we visit. It helps that over the years I’ve grown to understand how the game works but it’s the whole experience. The unsuspecting non-American turns up for a football match and gets an entertainment extravaganza. The crowds are always well behaved (unlike some - a minority - of top flight football club supporters in England) and its a real family occasion. I also like the patriotism (and not just at sporting events) and acknowledgement of the flag and anthem. We always stand because it’s respect for the country you are visiting.

 

[Handley_Page]

If the fashion police ask about me, I'd greatly appreciate it if you told them I said you haven't seen me.

Seen Whom ?


I like aircraft; Handley_Page Aircraft Ltd., made some damned fine flying machines.
So I adopted that name.

 

[Emirus]

I rather suspect that that someone who didn't realize Churchill is long dead wouldn't realize FDR was, either. That's not being American. That's being ignorant. Practically everyone knows who Churchill is. How could anyone get through high school history without knowing that? I'm suspect the woman you refer to would have had the same deficit no matter which country she lived in.

Personally, I've never been bothered when I read a story that's full of British-isms or Aussie-isms. I'd prefer the authors left those phrases and words in. It adds interest and flavor. The majority of the time, I think the meaning is obvious from the context. But, if it isn't obvious, that's no big deal. If I'm reading something on Lit, I'm already touching a device capable of looking something up on the internet. The exception to that is cockney rhyming slang, because there's just no way to decode it.

You are correct the lack of knowledge and ignorance is not confined by nationality and it wouldn’t matter which country the woman was in she would still have the same deficit. I think lack of knowledge of history is more prevalent with the below 30’s and, to a certain extent, the below 40’s.

As a writer I don’t want my reader to be confused by, or not understand, any word or phrase in my story. Obviously you can’t be perfect, and I’ve probably committed the crime sometime, but I don’t want them to have to investigate and take them away from my story.

I do agree most times you can work it out from the context and, as far as Cockney rhyming slang is concerned, I couldn’t agree more.

 

[NotWise]

Sadly, quite a few female writers have the same difficulty.

I've researched which terms women prefer for things down there, and just what they mean by them. Much of the input came from the general population -- you know, those women who might not read much explicit erotica.

The population is widely divided on what terms to use, but they seem pretty together on it's being "down there." Unlike a guy's equipment, girly stuff doesn't present itself for convenient viewing, so women tend to use one word for all of it. Men often do too, but men's interests are a little different.

So, while the vagina is really an internal part, it's fairly common for women to refer to the whole genital area as "my vagina" or some variant of the word.

"Pussy" didn't seem very popular because it was so over-used in porn, but when used it usually refers to the whole setup as well.

"Vulva" seemed to be too anatomical for most, and while formally it refers only to the external genitalia, if women use it, then they tend to include the vagina.

"Cunt" could be the most controversial word in US English. I've read some women's opinions that it's a strong word, and they should own it. They prefer it over pussy, as long as it's used to describe the genitals, not the individual. Outside the US, the word's not such a problem.

I usually try to strike a balance, because women may refer to it mostly as "down there" by one word or another, men want details. It makes sense, because men have to figure out which part is which and, if they actually want to satisfy their lover, know which part does what, when and why. I wonder if lesbians have a similar need for detail.

Are women who read erotica different?

 

[gunhilltrain]

Seen Whom ?

I like aircraft; Handley_Page Aircraft Ltd., made some damned fine flying machines.
So I adopted that name.

I heard about them first, I think, when I was still a kid. They made a bomber during World War I, correct?

Just curious; how do you know about the company? (I think it merged into something else a long time ago.)

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I've researched which terms women prefer for things down there, and just what they mean by them. Much of the input came from the general population -- you know, those women who might not read much explicit erotica.

The population is widely divided on what terms to use, but they seem pretty together on it's being "down there." Unlike a guy's equipment, girly stuff doesn't present itself for convenient viewing, so women tend to use one word for all of it. Men often do too, but men's interests are a little different.

So, while the vagina is really an internal part, it's fairly common for women to refer to the whole genital area as "my vagina" or some variant of the word.

"Pussy" didn't seem very popular because it was so over-used in porn, but when used it usually refers to the whole setup as well.

"Vulva" seemed to be too anatomical for most, and while formally it refers only to the external genitalia, if women use it, then they tend to include the vagina.

"Cunt" could be the most controversial word in US English. I've read some women's opinions that it's a strong word, and they should own it. They prefer it over pussy, as long as it's used to describe the genitals, not the individual. Outside the US, the word's not such a problem.

I usually try to strike a balance, because women may refer to it mostly as "down there" by one word or another, men want details. It makes sense, because men have to figure out which part is which and, if they actually want to satisfy their lover, know which part does what, when and why. I wonder if lesbians have a similar need for detail.

Are women who read erotica different?

Beats me. The feedback I get regarding sex scenes is either completely vague (

On TV women are always clustering together talking about stuff like that and giggling. That doesn't happen in my life. Very close girlfriends might talk about something health-related, but somehow terminology never comes into it. I know we have a reputation for dishing out dirt on sex, and maybe that happens among some circles. The women I hang out with generally don't go further than the fact that it happened. I can't imagine going into clinical detail. I do think that if someone in my circles referred coyly to "down there," someone would probably say, "you mean your pussy?" or "you mean your vagina?"according to context.

More often what comes up is in a humorous context. "Va-jay-jay" is a term that's become fairly mainstream as funny slang for all parts internal and external. It's kind of an acknowledgment that "vagina" is not the proper term for the whole ensemble, and, well, it sounds funny.

I really don't find that many occasions to refer to any portion of my genitalia or any other woman's genitalia in conversation with other women. In fact, I can't think of any occasions.

I also don't know whether my girlfriends read erotica, so I don't know which category they would fall in.

I think most women would react negatively to "cunt," at least in the U.S. It's used as an insult, and i get the idea of wanting to own it, but much like the N word, plenty of people just don't want it at all. Even if it's not seen as an insult, it would likely be seen as vulgar. In erotic fiction, it can be different. Context matters. The period matters, the characters' vernacular matters, and the characters' attitudes matter. Using it is a risk, though. Even in the context of a harsh BDSM scene, it can be used in a way that's a total turnoff.

I do find "vulva" too clinical for erotic fiction, but that may just be me. I work around the problem, when it need to be addressed at all, with addressing specific parts, or just saying "pussy." It's kind of a silly word, but it includes everything and I feel it's unlikely to offend or be off-putting. I was surprised that your research suggests that women dislike it because of porn. I've never discussed it with anyone, but I figured most women think it sounds silly, but don't have an issue with it. Maybe that's just what I think.

But, like I said, I don't have Sex in the City-type conversations. I've racked my alleged brain while typing this, and the only examples that come to mind are (paraphrased), "When the grease spattered, it went right through my panties and burned by God-damned pussy!" "I couldn't get in for a wax before the cruise, so I shaved, and now I've got razor burn all over my pussy," "These pants are riding up my va-jay-jay," "He just wants a piece of that va-jay-jay," "He needs to get tested after he's been in that nasty cunt," and "I was in the middle of the dance competition with the whole place watching, dipping my booty when my knockoff leather pants ripped at the seams and left my crotch hanging out." I do not know whether any of those women read erotica.

I looked back through the comments on my stories, and most of them aren't on point. For some reason, I got off track with what the question was and I copied all the sex-related comments from female readers. I can share those if there's an interest, but none of them related to terminology, so I guess all they'd tell you is whether my terminology worked for people.

 

[BelleCanzuto]

There was an example just recently of a black woman in London, a pastor and Chair of a Police Advisory Group, on national television news discussing her wanting a statue of Winston Churchill removed. She stated, “I’ve heard both sides. Some people say he’s a hero. Some people say he’s a racist. I HAVEN’T MET HIM PERSONALLY.” She’s 46 and she doesn’t know one of the most famous people of the twentieth century died fifty five years ago! Can you imagine the response to a 46 year old American saying “I haven’t met Franklin D. Roosevelt personally?” So whatever you do (this is a joke!) don’t mention Winston Churchill or FDR in any story you may write.

Counterpoint: the lady to whom you refer may be perfectly aware that Churchill is long dead, but is using the phrase "i haven't met him" as shorthand for "there's no way for me to assess his personal motives or possible animus toward people like me other than his recorded statements, because he's dead, and I can't talk to him myself".

I started hearing this kind of shorthand about ten years ago, when people were indicating that I had validated a belief they held about me. I.e. in casual conversation, I'd articulate a political belief or a preference for a certain kind of music, and some friend would reply, with a knowing nod, "yeah, I thought so. We've met."

The lady you mention is roughly the same age as me. I've heard that construction from several people in relation to protests over the last few years. "I dont know him" or "i haven't met her" meaning "I'm judging for myself based on the public record, rather than making assumptions about the person's internal motivations."

It can also be used as a refutation, if you think someone has made a false assumption about you. I.e. "you don't know me" rather than "you're wrong". It's harder to argue details against "you don't know me".

Certainly, someone would have to be staggeringly ignorant not to know that Churchill is dead, especially to make that remark in the context of a debate about statue of him, during which his career and service to your country was the center of the debate.

But I stop skipping when the story gets to the description of the naked woman. And this is where I get angry as many male writers don't seem to the difference between a vulva and vagina

I agree. It bothers me. Vulva is a perfectly good word; it's not a mystery.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Counterpoint: the lady to whom you refer may be perfectly aware that Churchill is long dead, but is using the phrase "i haven't met him" as shorthand for "there's no way for me to assess his personal motives or possible animus toward people like me other than his recorded statements, because he's dead, and I can't talk to him myself".

That's a pretty good counterpoint.

PS: I like your new icon. I feel the weight of catly judgment. I thought the other one was clever, too, though.

 

[NotWise]

Vulva is a perfectly good word; it's not a mystery.

I agree. I use it in my own personal dialogue, but I wonder; in something like "I wanted to close my mouth over her vulva and make her scream," is "vulva" really the word that will get the best reader response -- from either a male or female audience?

Aren't we supposed to be talking about women's clothes? One of the things I've always wanted to know about women's clothes, is how to get them off. That's a lot of what I look at when I research clothes. Is it buttoned? Where's the zipper? How does it tie? Is it taped down? How many layers are there?

I was pleased to learn in my research for my renaissance-based story, that if you bent your wife over a table and flipped up the several layers of her skirts, then you were already home.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I think you're probably talking about a bob if you're comparing it to flappers. Try Googling "bob" and "wedge cut" and see if one of those is what you mean. Wedge cut is different, but it also meets the description you gave. There are a lot of different varieties of bobs now, but the one with really straight hair with a severe hairline, usually above the jawline, is the one I think of as the flapper bob.

To get back on track; yes, I see now that was what I was trying to describe. Although from the photos I've seen, there are quite a variety of bob and wedge cut styles.

 

[SimonDoom]

And this is where I get angry as many male writers don't seem to the difference between a vulva and vagina

I don't think a narrator necessarily has to be correct on this issue. The fact is that people commonly call a vulva a vagina, so I think it's OK if the narration tracks what the characters in the story are actually likely to call it.

I don't think I've ever used the word "vulva" during the act of sex. "Oh, baby, you have a beautiful vulva." I just don't think I've ever said that. But I've certainly referred to it as a pussy. I think I have called it a vagina. With the right person, I've called it a cunt. But "vulva"? I don't think I've ever used that during the act or in bed.

This is one of those cases where actual, in-bed usage trumps dictionary definitions, IMO.

 

[SisterJezabel]

That sounds like a hard job. I wouldn't have the first clue what to say about clothes. Even with all the right vocabulary, I wouldn't know what I ought to be saying about them.

Edit: So I looked up "peplum" to see if it meant what I thought it meant based on how I'd seen it in context. It didn't. So technical!

I am actually wearing a peplum top today! I go between describing and not describing clothes. Sometimes it's as simple as dithering over wardrobe choices as the character ponders what the night might bring and other times it's a description of a dress that gives away more physical attributes of a character- I'd much rather write 'Tying the wraps of my dress I was pleased with the added boost it gave to my meager cleavage.' I guess not everyone would understand what a good wrap around dress can do for a figure, but I'd rather describe it like that rather than 'I put on clothes and hoped he didn't mind I had small tits.'

 

[SisterJezabel]

This is fascinating to me. I try in my writing not to be "too American" in my word choice, but it would never have occurred to me that someone wouldn't know what a "jock" is. A jock is an athlete, and the word carries the implication that he doesn't care about much other than sports.

According to etymonline.com, "jock" was slang for penis going back to the 17th century. The term "jockstrap" emerged with the development of athletic supporters in the late 19th century, and then the term "jock" emerged about 50-60 years ago to describe an athlete, probably derived from "jockstrap."

My late father always referred to his underwear as jockeys, but I actually recall that may have been a brand name. My brother still refers to his underwear as jocks and I have no idea nor desire to find out the type he wears! This may be an Aussie thing but!

 

[SisterJezabel]

I

"Cunt" could be the most controversial word in US English. I've read some women's opinions that it's a strong word, and they should own it. They prefer it over pussy, as long as it's used to describe the genitals, not the individual. Outside the US, the word's not such a problem.


Are women who read erotica different?

You forgot piss flaps! That may just be an Aussie one though and I can't imagine writing "Bruce lunged his tongue at my piss flaps...'

I'm all for reclaiming cunt! But I have also performed in The Vagina Monologues on more than one occasion... If someone refers to someone as a cunt in a derogatory way, I just say that's not possible as they lack the warmth and depth.

 

[YDB95]

I don't think I've ever used the word "vulva" during the act of sex. "Oh, baby, you have a beautiful vulva." I just don't think I've ever said that. But I've certainly referred to it as a pussy. I think I have called it a vagina. With the right person, I've called it a cunt. But "vulva"? I don't think I've ever used that during the act or in bed.

This is one of those cases where actual, in-bed usage trumps dictionary definitions, IMO.

I agree with your last line, but for what it's worth, I have used "vulva" in bed. Different strokes...

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Just to clarify, an 'athlete' in US-speak is anyone who is good at sports, so in high school would include the (American) football players, etc.
UK reserves the word athlete for someone doing athletics, as in the running jumping throwing events at the Olympics. A football (soccer) player wouldn't be called an athlete, unless explicitly praising their running ability.

As for what language women use for genitals - generally there's a lot of circumlocution "finally he entered her, filling her completely... he touched her just above her entrance" etc.

Fanfic writers are almost all female so you could look on a popular fanfic site for a fandom of the appropriate level of erudition (ie not Harry Potter unless you want to know what teenage girls will be embarrassed about in a decade's time) and the words they use, but IME you only get a few mentions of named genital parts in passing, plus the odd "I want you in my X now" - and a woman forthright enough to say that may say cunt (more likely in the UK?), pussy if American, but generally "I want you in me" should be enough for any guy to figure it out - if she wanted it up the arse she'd have specified!

I discovered from discussion elsewhere yesterday that the word cunt as an insult is apparently used for women or gay men in the US? Which makes it very different from the UK where it's a stronger version of bastard - in fact it's probably used much more as a term of affection (esp in Scotland and northern England) than as an insult much stronger than arsehole. If it's meant as an insult it's used very sparingly even by people who use fuck every other word, and phrases like "he's a right see-you-next-Tuesday" might be used instead.

 

[Emirus]

I discovered from discussion elsewhere yesterday that the word cunt as an insult is apparently used for women or gay men in the US? Which makes it very different from the UK where it's a stronger version of bastard - in fact it's probably used much more as a term of affection (esp in Scotland and northern England) than as an insult much stronger than arsehole. If it's meant as an insult it's used very sparingly even by people who use fuck every other word, and phrases like "he's a right see-you-next-Tuesday" might be used instead.

I was born and have lived in the northwest of England all my long life (as against Londoners and many in the south who believe the north begins at Watford - I appreciate that will mean nothing to non-GB) and although I’ve heard the word ‘cunt’ used disparagingly I can honestly say I’ve never heard it said as a term of affection. I’ve never heard the phrase ‘he’s a right see-you-next-tuesday’ but perhaps it’s a southern phrase?

Many years ago I visited a ‘lady of ill repute’ on several occasions during one of which she told me a client had, during the throes of passion, called her a cunt. She told him she had a cunt but she wasn’t a cunt. Instead of apologising, as I would think most would do, he apparently tried to justify it by saying it was acceptable because of her profession. Whereupon, quite rightly, she threw him out. I think any woman would be justified in their anger if it happened to them.

 

[Emirus]

I am actually wearing a peplum top today! I go between describing and not describing clothes. Sometimes it's as simple as dithering over wardrobe choices as the character ponders what the night might bring and other times it's a description of a dress that gives away more physical attributes of a character- I'd much rather write 'Tying the wraps of my dress I was pleased with the added boost it gave to my meager cleavage.' I guess not everyone would understand what a good wrap around dress can do for a figure, but I'd rather describe it like that rather than 'I put on clothes and hoped he didn't mind I had small tits.'

I’d never heard of ‘peplum’ until this discussion but I think it’s a lovely word and now realise I’ve seen ladies wearing a peplum top many times. I’ll never be able to look at them the same again but I’ll have to refrain from saying anything to my wife in case she asks where I heard the phrase.

 

[ElectricBlue]

My late father always referred to his underwear as jockeys, but I actually recall that may have been a brand name. My brother still refers to his underwear as jocks and I have no idea nor desire to find out the type he wears! This may be an Aussie thing but!

It was - and "jocks" is pretty universal for Oz male underwear. 'Grundies' used to be equally universal for young women's underwear: 'grundies' = undies. Reg Grundy was a major TV producer from the sixties through eighties, and left his cultural mark. Probably not used so much nowadays - with my daughter's generation it's more plain 'undies.'

 

[Emirus]

Counterpoint: the lady to whom you refer may be perfectly aware that Churchill is long dead, but is using the phrase "i haven't met him" as shorthand for "there's no way for me to assess his personal motives or possible animus toward people like me other than his recorded statements, because he's dead, and I can't talk to him myself".

I started hearing this kind of shorthand about ten years ago, when people were indicating that I had validated a belief they held about me. I.e. in casual conversation, I'd articulate a political belief or a preference for a certain kind of music, and some friend would reply, with a knowing nod, "yeah, I thought so. We've met."

The lady you mention is roughly the same age as me. I've heard that construction from several people in relation to protests over the last few years. "I dont know him" or "i haven't met her" meaning "I'm judging for myself based on the public record, rather than making assumptions about the person's internal motivations."

It can also be used as a refutation, if you think someone has made a false assumption about you. I.e. "you don't know me" rather than "you're wrong". It's harder to argue details against "you don't know me".

Certainly, someone would have to be staggeringly ignorant not to know that Churchill is dead, especially to make that remark in the context of a debate about statue of him, during which his career and service to your country was the center of the debate.(Quote)



Pastor Lorraine Jones - Chair Lambeth Police Advisory Group - Communist activist

If you go to YouTube and search “Channel 4 Community Activist Churchill” and listen to what she actually said I don’t think there will be any doubt in your mind she didn’t know he was dead. It would have been better if the left wing interviewer had asked her to clarify her statement but she obviously didn’t want to say/do anything to detract from the woman’s anti-white agenda.

Perhaps you’re correct in how she actually meant what she said and if so she should have expanded on her statement. But, as I’ve said, the interviewer wouldn’t want to embarrass her because it would harm her agenda.