Ellipses or dashes?

[IsaacTolkien]

Suppose a character is speaking slowly and hesitantly. Should he say:

1. "I-I don't know where he is."
2. "I - I don't know where he is."
3. "I...I don't know where he is."
4. "I ... I don't know where he is."
5. "I . . . I don't know where he is."

Apparently the Chicago Manual of Style advises #5. I see this in magazines like the New Yorker, though it seems to work better with serif fonts.

The Harry Potter books, in the UK at least, use #4.

My natural instinct while typing is to do #1 or #2, but most writers' web sites advise some version of #3-5.

What makes sense?

 

[Voboy]

I... do 6. None of the above.

There’s a slew of very specific grammar posts lately. I’m curious as to the reason behind them.

 

[ThisNameIsntTakenYet]

#2-5 look odd to me, don't think I've seen them very often (or just didn't pay much attention to it). The ones I've most commonly seen are your #1:

"I-I don't know where he is."

And one you didn't mention: the ellipsis with a space after, like this:

"I... I don't know where he is."

To me, they both sound different too. The first is more of a stutter where the second is a longer pause. That said, I'm not sure what would be the correct way, these are just the ones I've seen most often.

EDIT: Some googling made it clear there's a huge debate on whether or not an ellipsis needs to be followed by a space. My preference is putting a space after it, but apparently some of the major style guides (which specifically wasn't mentioned) offer opposite guidelines for it. General consensus I found was that it's a stylistic choice and that, as long as you're consistent in your writing, either should be fine.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Suppose a character is speaking slowly and hesitantly. Should he say:

1. "I-I don't know where he is."
2. "I - I don't know where he is."
3. "I...I don't know where he is."
4. "I ... I don't know where he is."
5. "I . . . I don't know where he is."

Apparently the Chicago Manual of Style advises #5. I see this in magazines like the New Yorker, though it seems to work better with serif fonts.

The Harry Potter books, in the UK at least, use #4.

My natural instinct while typing is to do #1 or #2, but most writers' web sites advise some version of #3-5.

What makes sense?

"I-I don't know where he is." reads to me like the person is speaking fast, perhaps stuttering.

"I...I don't know where he is." reads as if they are hesitating or, at the end of the sentence, fading out.

I would use either, depending on the circumstances. I would not use the other variants.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

#2-5 look odd to me, don't think I've seen them very often (or just didn't pay much attention to it). The ones I've most commonly seen are your #1:

"I-I don't know where he is."

And one you didn't mention: the ellipsis with a space after, like this:

"I... I don't know where he is."

To me, they both sound different too. The first is more of a stutter where the second is a longer pause. That said, I'm not sure what would be the correct way, these are just the ones I've seen most often.

EDIT: Some googling made it clear there's a huge debate on whether or not an ellipsis needs to be followed by a space. My preference is putting a space after it, but apparently some of the major style guides (which specifically wasn't mentioned) offer opposite guidelines for it. General consensus I found was that it's a stylistic choice and that, as long as you're consistent in your writing, either should be fine.

This.

On the other hand, while people often cite This Guide or That Rule as a rationale for one particular style or another, until Laurel sets her own firm standard for this site, I cannot - provided the usage is consistent and the meaning is clear - see that it makes any difference. Go with what works for you.

 

[jaF0]

Laurel sets her own firm standard for this site,

Clipped that part out as it's the ONLY thing that matters here. The stuffy guides need to be Farenheited.

 

[ElectricBlue]

This:

"I... I don't know where he is."

gets past the Balrog.

 

[LoquiSordidaAdMe]

.
EDIT: Some googling made it clear there's a huge debate on whether or not an ellipsis needs to be followed by a space. My preference is putting a space after it, ...

I'm with TNINTY on this one for a purely technical reason. Adding a space after the ellipsis ensures that the text can wrap to the next line neatly if it has to. Since you don't have control over where your lines break or how your text wraps in different browsers with different font settings, spaces can allow your text to wrap more elegantly.

Now in the case of "I...I" text wrapping might not be a big deal, but if there is a pause between longer words like "I really appreciate...appreciate the gesture" it can make a difference. And whatever you decide, you want your usage to be consistent throughout the story.

 

[SimonDoom]

No. 5 is correct if you are writing in the American style. This is what the Chicago Manual of Style says.

AP style does not insert spaces between the periods of an ellipsis, but AP is for journalism, not fiction. Understandably, it puts space at a premium. Fiction does not.

An ellipsis is used to denote hesitation in dialogue, so you would use an ellipsis rather than a dash here.

Put spaces on either side of the ellipsis.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Put spaces on either side of the ellipsis.

That can cock up text wrapping, as Loqui points out - leaving the ... as an orphan on its own line. The punctuation purists seem to forget that Lit is not compositing a print file, it's presenting a stream of minimally formatted text for digital devices. It ain't the Guttenberg Bible, folks, we're not using paper.

But hey, fight amongst yourselves .

 

[ThisNameIsntTakenYet]

I'm with TNINTY on this one for a purely technical reason. Adding a space after the ellipsis ensures that the text can wrap to the next line neatly if it has to. Since you don't have control over where your lines break or how your text wraps in different browsers with different font settings, spaces can allow your text to wrap more elegantly.

Now in the case of "I...I" text wrapping might not be a big deal, but if there is a pause between longer words like "I really appreciate...appreciate the gesture" it can make a difference. And whatever you decide, you want your usage to be consistent throughout the story.

Good point, I hadn't considered text wrapping yet. That's even more reason to use it.

Also btw, people usually call me Taken

 

[SimonDoom]

That can cock up text wrapping, as Loqui points out - leaving the ... as an orphan on its own line. The punctuation purists seem to forget that Lit is not compositing a print file, it's presenting a stream of minimally formatted text for digital devices. It ain't the Guttenberg Bible, folks, we're not using paper.

But hey, fight amongst yourselves .

I read Loqui to be saying that the text wrapping issue is a reason FOR using the space.

 

[HectorBidon]

I prefer 5 too, but if you just type it in with periods and spaces it can break across lines. You can prevent this by using non-breakable spaces like this:

"I&nbsp.&nbsp.&nbsp. I don't know."

This makes your source file look ugly, though, and I can never remember it, so I usually just type in the periods and spaces and put up with occasional ugly breaks.

 

[Hypoxia]

As noted, Laurel's standard is all that matters here. She's allowed me such as:

"I, I... I just don't know."

"Well, I..." (she sniffled) "...I just don't know..."​

YMMV.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I read Loqui to be saying that the text wrapping issue is a reason FOR using the space.

Yes, a long string of text won't wrap, and needs at least one space so it will wrap. But you are suggesting two spaces which makes the ellipsis an island of text, which can become separated from the mainland. You need an archipelago. My example above does that, visually looks okay, stays with its parent, and is quick to type. And, as Hypoxia notes, is accepted by Laurel.

All of the print style formats being spruiked require extra finger work: . . . takes twice as long to type as... does. That example actually took three times longer, because my fingers fumbled several times - three decades of muscle memory to get over just for three periods? I need a compositor for printing, but not for typing.

Anyway, look at a random selection of print books from various eras and publishers, and try to tell me there has ever been a consistent print standard - there hasn't, no matter what anybody says.

All this matters a little bit for readability, but for digital media, it's more a question of staying with the times (or getting with the times). But don't get with The Times, because that would open up a whole new can of worms, and it's too early in the morning for that.

Here, btw, is what the Site has to say on the subject of guidance for writers:

** Strunk and White's Elements of Style - An free online guide to the basics every writer should know.

** The Columbia Guide to Standard American English Usage - An online guide to the basics every writer should know.

Perhaps Laurel doesn't like The Great Lakes, there's no mention of Chicago.

Carry on .

 

[Bramblethorn]

"I-I don't know where he is." reads to me like the person is speaking fast, perhaps stuttering.

"I...I don't know where he is." reads as if they are hesitating or, at the end of the sentence, fading out.

I would use either, depending on the circumstances. I would not use the other variants.

^^ this.

I'm with TNINTY on this one for a purely technical reason. Adding a space after the ellipsis ensures that the text can wrap to the next line neatly if it has to. Since you don't have control over where your lines break or how your text wraps in different browsers with different font settings, spaces can allow your text to wrap more elegantly.

You can achieve the "I...I" look without wrapping problems by using the hair space character, which was created for just this sort of thing. Hair spaces are so thin as to be almost invisible, but still allow breaking.

In the text submission box, you can create a hair space with " ".

I just tested it with Literotica's story preview function and it looks to work as intended. First sample just uses "blah...blah" and as LSAM pointed out, this will result in an ugly break. Second sample uses "blah ... blah" and displays almost identical to the first one but breaks neatly around the ellipse.

 

[LoquiSordidaAdMe]

In the text submission box, you can create a hair space with " ".

Nice! That's handy to know.

 

[ThisNameIsntTakenYet]

You can achieve the "I...I" look without wrapping problems by using the hair space character, which was created for just this sort of thing. Hair spaces are so thin as to be almost invisible, but still allow breaking.

In the text submission box, you can create a hair space with " ".

Huh. I knew the non-breaking space existed: " ", which does the opposite: looks like a space but doesn't allow a line break so it keeps the two parts together. Makes sense the opposite would exist too. Doubt I'll have a use for it, but the more you know.

 

[LupusDei]

Suppose a character is speaking slowly and hesitantly. Should he say:

1. "I-I don't know where he is."
2. "I - I don't know where he is."
3. "I...I don't know where he is."
4. "I ... I don't know where he is."
5. "I . . . I don't know where he is."

Apparently the Chicago Manual of Style advises #5. I see this in magazines like the New Yorker, though it seems to work better with serif fonts.

The Harry Potter books, in the UK at least, use #4.

My natural instinct while typing is to do #1 or #2, but most writers' web sites advise some version of #3-5.

What makes sense?

Okay, there's my totally unsourced private point of view, based in different language experience and perhaps unique as it is, but I don't care.

Spaces carry meaningful information, at least for me. A word continues until there's a space; if reading aloud, I'm not allowed to breathe until there's a space. Well, from computer analysis of speech we now know that people really do not put spaces in a sentence, but it there's for at least that opportunity, and logical clarity of the information. Space does influence how I would parse text.


#1 "I-I" I see a hyphen, it reads as stuttering, there's no pause, I-I is a single word without drop of tone, just broken in voice, at most.

#2 "I - I" looks as a dash for me, it puts emphasis on the second world; it could as well be in bold typeface. There's a pause, but it deliberate and confident, not a hesitation.

([random_rant] yes, Chicago manual lost any credibility for me the moment I was made aware it don't allow spaces around em-dash. That's an ugly abomination that makes absolutely none logical sense, and I don't care if half the world use it that way; wrong is wrong and such assault on syntax logic should be fought with guns; there should be at least one space around dash, mandatory, because it doesn't make a lick of sense otherwise. [/random_rant])

#3 "I...I" doesn't make lot of sense for me; in this case it looks like typo. How I would imagine use of no-space ellipsis in the middle of a word, and yes, it is in the middle of a word if there's no space, would be omission or confusion of a part of a long world, something alike:

"You're wrong, it is dezironucleo...acid."

"Huh... whatever," he didn't comprehend the mile long scientific term (nor are we allowed as readers), "...so what it does?"
​

#3/4 "I... I" and "I ...I" are both valid and meaningfully different. The general use of the ellipsis to my knowledge is to denote ending of an unfinished sentence. In the middle of a sentence it therefore could be:

Unfinished statement... carried on or clarified after a pause.
Independent statement ...appended after a pause. (Okay, this is clearly nonstandard as written here, and more often would appear after an insertion of some kind, but that's how it works.)

#4 "I ... I" surrounded by two spaces, ellipsis becomes independent, yet omitted, part of the sentence. There's clearly something between the repetitions of the "I," but we not necessarily know what. As in:

"We're speaking about ... here."

"Excuse me, what did you say? I didn't hear you clearly."
​

#5 "I . . . I" well, maybe it's something one can get used to, by I have virtually never seen this in any text I happened to look at, or noticed, or perhaps just shrug off as typo. If I wanted to emphasize the pause that much I would rather use triplet of ellipsis, like:
"I... ... ...I," what would stand for functionality the same as
"I..." he looked in the sky, picked his nose for a while, then finally mumbled, "...I don't know where that is."

That said, every language have the syntax rules different, as crazy an it can be, and English is renowned for lack of system and logic (and that's why it doubleso worrisome and debilitating of it becoming world language), so what I think doesn't matter any.

 

[MindsMirror]

We've been using [url="https://grammargeddon.com/2014/10/31/mechanics-of-dialogue-part-3-interrupted-dialog]this[/url] as our reference, but often get comments/e-mails about odd usage of dash, ellipsis and em-dash.
-MM

 

[ElectricBlue]

I just tested it with Literotica's story preview function and it looks to work as intended. First sample just uses "blah...blah" and as LSAM pointed out, this will result in an ugly break. Second sample uses "blah ... blah" and displays almost identical to the first one but breaks neatly around the ellipse.

My god, look at all the extra typing! My approach... remains four key strokes, nice and simple .

 

[TarnishedPenny]

My god, look at all the extra typing! My approach... remains four key strokes, nice and simple .

It would be nice, but I've found that that doesn't always work for me. I am going to try this hairsp thing on my next one. It looks like it works in preview.

 

[ThisNameIsntTakenYet]

My god, look at all the extra typing! My approach... remains four key strokes, nice and simple .

Could always run a search and replace on your story to replace every ellipsis with the more complicated hairspace variant. That would be easy to type while still keeping the behavior.

 

[Voboy]

My god, look at all the extra typing! My approach... remains four key strokes, nice and simple .

This.

And, more to the point here, Laurel is fine with it as well...