How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[ishtat]

Well I guess being a Christian makes me a fellow traveler.

No, that is a wilful misrepresentation. 99% of Christians manage belief in God coupled with an understanding of scientific reasoning. Xfrodo's nonsense is not science but a denial of science. He puts belief ahead of and to the exclusion of all reason. Aristotle, Averroes, Maimonedes and Aquinas all tried to reconcile belief and reason. Xfrodo merely denies reason and calls bible study science!

Pope Francis for example (the only Pope with tertiary science qualifications) says evolution is real and that it is God's mechanism. Whether you agree or not that is at least a rational resolution of a belief/ science conundrum.

Xfrodo suggested in a disturbing post a couple of weeks back that people who did not support his notion of literal/biblical Christianity were not really Christians at all, neatly excluding 99% of all people who think of themselves as such.

It seems to me that considering that The Jew from Nazareth welcomed Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans, Greeks and women to his ministry, that it is profoundly evil of Xfrodo and his ilk to exclude others from Jesus ministry except on his fundamentalist terms

I do not suggest that the reconciliation of belief and reason is easy, it is not, but to not make the attempt like Xfrodo is contemptible. Perhaps that is why you find this issue uncomfortable.

My conclusion is that Xfrodo is an idiot and beyond redemption, but you are at least still struggling with the issue. To continue that struggle is far more creditable than to take a rigid dogmatic position.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Every single miracle recounted in the Bible is scientifically impossible. They wouldn't be called miracles if they were otherwise.

I agree. But with God all things are possible.

 

[Tryharder62]

No, that is a wilful misrepresentation. 99% of Christians manage belief in God coupled with an understanding of scientific reasoning. Xfrodo's nonsense is not science but a denial of science. He puts belief ahead of and to the exclusion of all reason. Aristotle, Averroes, Maimonedes and Aquinas all tried to reconcile belief and reason. Xfrodo merely denies reason and calls bible study science!

Pope Francis for example (the only Pope with tertiary science qualifications) says evolution is real and that it is God's mechanism. Whether you agree or not that is at least a rational resolution of a belief/ science conundrum.

Xfrodo suggested in a disturbing post a couple of weeks back that people who did not support his notion of literal/biblical Christianity were not really Christians at all, neatly excluding 99% of all people who think of themselves as such.

It seems to me that considering that The Jew from Nazareth welcomed Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans, Greeks and women to his ministry, that it is profoundly evil of Xfrodo and his ilk to exclude others from Jesus ministry except on his fundamentalist terms

I do not suggest that the reconciliation of belief and reason is easy, it is not, but to not make the attempt like Xfrodo is contemptible. Perhaps that is why you find this issue uncomfortable.

My conclusion is that Xfrodo is an idiot and beyond redemption, but you are at least still struggling with the issue. To continue that struggle is far more creditable than to take a rigid dogmatic position.

I'm not uncomfortable or struggling. I am at peace. I don't believe it has to be science or faith. There can be both. I also add a bit of common sense.

 

[bunny4med]

there are those of us of science who believe in god, but not organized religion.
anyone who has practice medicine knows there are things that happen to patients that are beyond human input.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

No, that is a wilful misrepresentation. 99% of Christians manage belief in God coupled with an understanding of scientific reasoning. Xfrodo's nonsense is not science but a denial of science. He puts belief ahead of and to the exclusion of all reason. Aristotle, Averroes, Maimonedes and Aquinas all tried to reconcile belief and reason. Xfrodo merely denies reason and calls bible study science!

Pope Francis for example (the only Pope with tertiary science qualifications) says evolution is real and that it is God's mechanism. Whether you agree or not that is at least a rational resolution of a belief/ science conundrum.

Xfrodo suggested in a disturbing post a couple of weeks back that people who did not support his notion of literal/biblical Christianity were not really Christians at all, neatly excluding 99% of all people who think of themselves as such.

It seems to me that considering that The Jew from Nazareth welcomed Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans, Greeks and women to his ministry, that it is profoundly evil of Xfrodo and his ilk to exclude others from Jesus ministry except on his fundamentalist terms

I do not suggest that the reconciliation of belief and reason is easy, it is not, but to not make the attempt like Xfrodo is contemptible. Perhaps that is why you find this issue uncomfortable.

My conclusion is that Xfrodo is an idiot and beyond redemption, but you are at least still struggling with the issue. To continue that struggle is far more creditable than to take a rigid dogmatic position.

Creation Science is not a Bible study. It is based on the same evidence as Evolutionists look at. It's just that Creation Scientists draw different conclusions based on that same evidence. That's not delusion it's truth. Pope Francis is not God and much of what he claims is false. You don't have to choose which to believe in science or the Bible. The Bible is backed up by science. Evolution is directly contrary to the Bible and scientific reality. But you have to look at the other side of the story to see it.

 

[phrodeau]

Creation Science is not a Bible study. It is based on the same evidence as Evolutionists look at. It's just that Creation Scientists draw different conclusions based on that same evidence. That's not delusion it's truth. Pope Francis is not God and much of what he claims is false. You don't have to choose which to believe in science or the Bible. The Bible is backed up by science. Evolution is directly contrary to the Bible and scientific reality. But you have to look at the other side of the story to see it.

Creation science isn't science either. Their conclusions are drawn before they even look at any evidence.

If you really want to start with the premise that what can't be explained must be supernatural, then you're more likely to conclude that Zeus created everything, since Zeus is believed to have done a lot of silly and malicious things.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

I'm not uncomfortable or struggling. I am at peace. I don't believe it has to be science or faith. There can be both. I also add a bit of common sense.

I actually agree. You can have science and faith because my faith is backed up by the actual scientific evidence. It's just that only the evolutionist side is presented and so people believe the lie.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Creation science isn't science either. Their conclusions are drawn before they even look at any evidence.

If you really want to start with the premise that what can't be explained must be supernatural, then you're more likely to conclude that Zeus created everything, since Zeus is believed to have done a lot of silly and malicious things.

False. Creation science is science because it's backed up by the actual evidence. Does it have areas where there are still questions? Yes. However evolution is much more faith-based than creation science. I would say that Evolution to do exactly what you're saying they draw conclusions before they even look at the evidence. Everything is millions of years old even when the evidence shows them the opposite is true. They assume that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago even though the evidence shows that that's not the case.

 

[phrodeau]

False. Creation science is science because it's backed up by the actual evidence. Does it have areas where there are still questions? Yes. However evolution is much more faith-based than creation science. I would say that Evolution to do exactly what you're saying they draw conclusions before they even look at the evidence. Everything is millions of years old even when the evidence shows them the opposite is true. They assume that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago even though the evidence shows that that's not the case.

It's clear that you don't understand the scientific method.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

It's clear that you don't understand the scientific method.

You mean the scientific method that was developed by Christians and learned about in schools that were developed by Christians? That one?

 

[phrodeau]

You mean the scientific method that was developed by Christians and learned about in schools that were developed by Christians? That one?

How many do you think there are?

Muslims were applying science before Christians.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

How many do you think there are?

Muslims were applying science before Christians.

The Scientific Method and the modern educational system was devised by Christians.

 

[phrodeau]

The Scientific Method and the modern educational system was devised by Christians.

Greeks, you mean. They were polytheists.

 

[EternalFantasies]

No, that is a wilful misrepresentation. 99% of Christians manage belief in God coupled with an understanding of scientific reasoning. Xfrodo's nonsense is not science but a denial of science. He puts belief ahead of and to the exclusion of all reason. Aristotle, Averroes, Maimonedes and Aquinas all tried to reconcile belief and reason. Xfrodo merely denies reason and calls bible study science!

Pope Francis for example (the only Pope with tertiary science qualifications) says evolution is real and that it is God's mechanism. Whether you agree or not that is at least a rational resolution of a belief/ science conundrum.

Xfrodo suggested in a disturbing post a couple of weeks back that people who did not support his notion of literal/biblical Christianity were not really Christians at all, neatly excluding 99% of all people who think of themselves as such.

It seems to me that considering that The Jew from Nazareth welcomed Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans, Greeks and women to his ministry, that it is profoundly evil of Xfrodo and his ilk to exclude others from Jesus ministry except on his fundamentalist terms

Correct.

I do not suggest that the reconciliation of belief and reason is easy, it is not, but to not make the attempt like Xfrodo is contemptible. Perhaps that is why you find this issue uncomfortable.

Doubly correct.

I agree. But with God all things are possible.

BS. What Phrodeau said is wrong. Bible miracles are not scientifically impossible, they are very possible. He just has to understand what that miracle is first.

And so do you.

there are those of us of science who believe in god, but not organized religion.
anyone who has practice medicine knows there are things that happen to patients that are beyond human input.

Amen.

Creation Science is not a Bible study. It is based on the same evidence as Evolutionists look at. It's just that Creation Scientists draw different conclusions based on that same evidence. That's not delusion it's truth. Pope Francis is not God and much of what he claims is false. You don't have to choose which to believe in science or the Bible. The Bible is backed up by science. Evolution is directly contrary to the Bible and scientific reality. But you have to look at the other side of the story to see it.

All false. Top to bottom.

How many do you think there are?

Muslims were applying science before Christians.

Get that thru: Muslims stole!

Now recalculate.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Greeks, you mean. They were polytheists.

It depends on who you ask:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method_and_religion

 

[Que]

No, that is a wilful misrepresentation. 99% of Christians manage belief in God coupled with an understanding of scientific reasoning. Xfrodo's nonsense is not science but a denial of science. He puts belief ahead of and to the exclusion of all reason. Aristotle, Averroes, Maimonedes and Aquinas all tried to reconcile belief and reason. Xfrodo merely denies reason and calls bible study science!

Pope Francis for example (the only Pope with tertiary science qualifications) says evolution is real and that it is God's mechanism. Whether you agree or not that is at least a rational resolution of a belief/ science conundrum.

Xfrodo suggested in a disturbing post a couple of weeks back that people who did not support his notion of literal/biblical Christianity were not really Christians at all, neatly excluding 99% of all people who think of themselves as such.

It seems to me that considering that The Jew from Nazareth welcomed Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans, Greeks and women to his ministry, that it is profoundly evil of Xfrodo and his ilk to exclude others from Jesus ministry except on his fundamentalist terms

I do not suggest that the reconciliation of belief and reason is easy, it is not, but to not make the attempt like Xfrodo is contemptible. Perhaps that is why you find this issue uncomfortable.

My conclusion is that Xfrodo is an idiot and beyond redemption, but you are at least still struggling with the issue. To continue that struggle is far more creditable than to take a rigid dogmatic position.

100%

for the life of me I can't remember who wrote it because it was being quoted by someone else and I can't even remember who that was in order to look it up but the point of the Treatise was that historically the Bible was treated by Christians as a series of allegories in order to teach people how to live a better life in this life. It wasn't taught that Jonah was literally swallowed by a whale. Jesus himself taught in Parables. They weren't meant to be actual events being recounted. it's the same idea with Aesop's Fables. There was no talking Fox arguing with a Crow over metaphorical grapes.

Literists are a very recent Creation in the history of Christianity.

The original poster is certifiably insane. I'd be shocked to learn that he has never been institutionalized.

 

[EternalFantasies]

Jesus himself taught in Parables. They weren't meant to be actual events being recounted.

Wellllllll.... if you are saying that the Bible doesn't contain - and for the most of it - events being recounted......

You'd be mistaken.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Just because there were times when Jesus taught in Parables doesn't mean that everything He taught was in Parables. When He uses proper names, He is referring to real events. Parables don't use proper names. The rich man and Lazarus was a real event.

 

[phrodeau]

Just because there were times when Jesus taught in Parables doesn't mean that everything He taught was in Parables. When He uses proper names, He is referring to real events. Parables don't use proper names. The rich man and Lazarus was a real event.

What happened to Lazarus, anyway? Did he write about his experience? Did he go round the chat shows?

Did he die eventually? What did he die of? Or is he still around somewhere?

 

[BobaFetaCheese]

What happened to Lazarus, anyway? Did he write about his experience? Did he go round the chat shows?

Did he die eventually? What did he die of? Or is he still around somewhere?

That's a different Lazarus. You're thinking of Lazarus of Bethany.

 

[phrodeau]

That's a different Lazarus. You're thinking of Lazarus of Bethany.

Not a real event, then?

 

[jaF0]

Not a real event, then?

There are no real events outside Lit.

 

[BobaFetaCheese]

Not a real event, then?

Don't know, wasn't there. Rich man and Lazarus is generally considered a parable tho. Lazarus being raised from dead supposedly had many witnesses but I wasn't one of them.
Either you got faith or you don't. Entirely up to the individual.

 

[phrodeau]

Don't know, wasn't there. Rich man and Lazarus is generally considered a parable tho. Lazarus being raised from dead supposedly had many witnesses but I wasn't one of them.
Either you got faith or you don't. Entirely up to the individual.

If Lazarus had a tomb of his own that Jesus extracted him from, when he died, presumably he'd be returned to that tomb. But it lies vacant to this day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Lazarus

 

[BobaFetaCheese]

If Lazarus had a tomb of his own that Jesus extracted him from, when he died, presumably he'd be returned to that tomb. But it lies vacant to this day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Lazarus

That's assuming it's really his tomb, he didn't die in the wilderness or some manner where his body was not recovered, he died in the same town, the tomb wasn't used for someone else in the family and that it really happened. Lot of assumptions.
Nobody knows what happened to him and it doesn't much matter. He wasn't the point of the story.