How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Hypoxia]

Again, the shroud was investigated (by a papal commission) after it first appeared a few centuries ago. The guy who made it confessed. That's the documented history. Arguing otherwise is like claiming "gravity is only a theory" after the apple hits you head.

But hey, holy relics are great business. About 85 tonnes of slivers of the True Cross can be found across the landscape. Also about 850 scraps of Yeshua's foreskin, and fuck knows how many bits and pieces of myriads of martyrs and other saints. I recall one display of an adult skeleton -- the bones of St John -- and beside that, an infant's skeleton -- yes, the bones of St John AS A CHILD!

The shroud is not evidence. And if your faith depends on evidence, your faith is weak.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Again, the shroud was investigated (by a papal commission) after it first appeared a few centuries ago. The guy who made it confessed. That's the documented history. Arguing otherwise is like claiming "gravity is only a theory" after the apple hits you head.

But hey, holy relics are great business. About 85 tonnes of slivers of the True Cross can be found across the landscape. Also about 850 scraps of Yeshua's foreskin, and fuck knows how many bits and pieces of myriads of martyrs and other saints. I recall one display of an adult skeleton -- the bones of St John -- and beside that, an infant's skeleton -- yes, the bones of St John AS A CHILD!

The shroud is not evidence. And if your faith depends on evidence, your faith is weak.

Show me evidence to back up your claim.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

The universe is unimaginably vast, with innumerable possible life- and intelligence-bearing worlds orbiting zillions of suns. Who/what counts points for all these?

We benefit from the appreciation of those we assist and our own feelings of accomplishment. "Service to our fellow man is the rent we pay for our space on the planet."

..and yet atheists want us to believe that all of this vast Universe pop up out of nothing and for no reason...

 

[phrodeau]

..and yet atheists want us to believe that all of this vast Universe pop up out of nothing and for no reason...

That is far more credible than what Christians want us to believe.

 

[Hypoxia]

Show me evidence to back up your claim.

I'm not the one claiming that supernatural beings exist outside human imagination, in something like 'reality'. I need not prove them fantasy.

EDIT: Sorry, I let my attention slip. I blame system problems here. Anyway, about relics: a little googling will tell you much about the relics industries of Xianity. Multiple holy sites DO claim to possess the same saintly bits. Anyway I'm astounded by the notion that fragments of dead believers are imbued with magickal powers. It's just so... barbaric.

..and yet atheists want us to believe that all of this vast Universe pop up out of nothing and for no reason...

The Judeo-Xian-Muslim theological worldview encompasses a portion of the MidEast over a limited time. Hindu and Mayan theologies are rather vaster; biblical scales seem rather constipated.

Physicists have observed small-scale quantum froth, where an electron and anti-electron emit from nowhere and consume energy, interact with other particles, then each annihilates on an anti-particle to release energy. It's not hard to see this on the multiverse scale: in infinity of universes popping into being, existing for some period of time, then melting back into the multiverse. No intentions by an deities are needed -- there's no 'reason', we just 'are'.

This single universe is quite large, rather much for a single deity to handle all the gazillions of sentient creatures on the gazillions of habitable planets (and beyond). Even keeping up with one galaxy, with a possible supermassive black hole at its core, would be a bit much for even a panoply of gods.

Earth had enough trouble with thousands of holy systems, where each group gets its own set of holy monsters. Humanity's gods each claim only a small patch. Lord {JHWH} now has patches not occupied by others. So it goes.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

That is far more credible than what Christians want us to believe.

Oh really? Explain how it's possible that a whole universe and all that exists just "Popped up" out of nothing and nowhere. The truth is that scientifically, it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to exist. I thought evolutionists and atheists were all about science.

 

[phrodeau]

Oh really? Explain how it's possible that a whole universe and all that exists just "Popped up" out of nothing and nowhere. The truth is that scientifically, it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to exist. I thought evolutionists and atheists were all about science.

The Bible doesn't explain it either, since the earth was there before God said, "Let there be light."

 

[Hypoxia]

Oh really? Explain how it's possible that a whole universe and all that exists just "Popped up" out of nothing and nowhere.

I just did. It's called Quantum Froth. No deities are necessary -- or even possible.

An omniscient, omnipotent deity must be aware of every space-time event in both our universe, about 15 billion light-years radius, and likely in the infinitude of entities in the multiverse also. Such omniscience requires rather a lot of data storage and transfer. Where's the storage and how is it moved? Where is your Lord {JHWH}'s brain and how does it work? How can you tell?

 

[Tryharder62]

The Bible doesn't explain it either, since the earth was there before God said, "Let there be light."

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this statement? How does that disprove that God created everything? Just wondering.

 

[phrodeau]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this statement? How does that disprove that God created everything? Just wondering.

The Hebrew word "bara" is closer in meaning to "tailored" than "created". The opening of Genesis tells us that God shaped things out of other things that were there already.

Why do you suppose God made Adam out of dust and Eve out of a rib? Couldn't He have created them out of nothingness?

 

[Tryharder62]

The Hebrew word "bara" is closer in meaning to "tailored" than "created". The opening of Genesis tells us that God shaped things out of other things that were there already.

Why do you suppose God made Adam out of dust and Eve out of a rib? Couldn't He have created them out of nothingness?

He could have created man out of nothingness. I think he didn't because of the unique relationship he would have with man.

During most of creation he just spoke things into being. Let there be light...etc. With Adam he uses a very lowly substance dirt and makes it something special by the breath of life HE gives. He was more involved in the creation.

I think God used Adam's Rib to form Eve to show that they are actually the same creative being. The female is not created as a separate being second to man, but she is the second half of a whole.

I think humans were always intended to be a unique creation.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

I just did. It's called Quantum Froth. No deities are necessary -- or even possible.

An omniscient, omnipotent deity must be aware of every space-time event in both our universe, about 15 billion light-years radius, and likely in the infinitude of entities in the multiverse also. Such omniscience requires rather a lot of data storage and transfer. Where's the storage and how is it moved? Where is your Lord {JHWH}'s brain and how does it work? How can you tell?

Quantum Froth as I read only explains how matter and energy are interchangeable. That's not something from nothing. That's matter into energy or energy into matter. Not the same as something from nothing. You don't know if there are multiverses there might be, there might not be. That's theory, but certainly not science.

 

[phrodeau]

Quantum Froth as I read only explains how matter and energy are interchangeable. That's not something from nothing. That's matter into energy or energy into matter. Not the same as something from nothing. You don't know if there are multiverses there might be, there might not be. That's theory, but certainly not science.

What is this "nothing" of which you speak?

 

[jaF0]

What is this "nothing" of which you speak?

A Cosmic Bluto doing the Human Zit routine?

 

[Hypoxia]

The Hebrew word "bara" is closer in meaning to "tailored" than "created". The opening of Genesis tells us that God shaped things out of other things that were there already.

Gen.1 starts with 'elohim', the plural of 'el', a deity. Not "el elohim", god of gods, merely gods, plural. Whittling / shaping ('terraforming') Earth was a team effort.

Why do you suppose God made Adam out of dust and Eve out of a rib? Couldn't He have created them out of nothingness?

Lord {JHWH} *did* create Man and Woman together out of whatever, in Gen.1:27. That rib bit came later, in Gen.2:21-22. Those are distinct creation myths, one Egyptian, the other Mesopotamian.

As for the rib thang. Lord {JHWH} must have done some miracle work on he DNA because human male chromosomes are a broken version of female. Thus the Gen.2 story has Lord {JHWH} create (or shape?) an incomplete, non-reproducing human. Man needed more than merely a 'helpmeet', not if humanity was to be more than a one-off.

Quantum Froth as I read only explains how matter and energy are interchangeable. That's not something from nothing. That's matter into energy or energy into matter. Not the same as something from nothing. You don't know if there are multiverses there might be, there might not be. That's theory, but certainly not science.

Quantum Froth has been observed on nano scales so it's not just hypothetical.

The multiverse thang is iffy but we can consider only this here universe. Let's see, the volume formula is V= 4/3 pi r^3. With a radius of about 15 billion lightyears, volume is 1.41×10^31 cubic light years. Whew. A single deity keeping track of every space-time event in that volume will stay quite busy.

But we've already established the existence of multiple deities in Judeo-Xian theology, so poor overworked Lord {JHWH} didn't have to do it all alone.

Angels (messengers) and demons (bad-news angels) don't have the juice, the push, the power, to create planets and galaxies by themselves. Call in a divine pantheon or three for help. Garelamaisana handles South-Central Asia with some help from Kali. Kokopeli makes North America entertaining. I'm not sure who or what gets Mars, Uranus, Sirius III, the smart-dust motes circling Beta Reticula, or our immense galactic depths. It gets hairy in the Outer Zones.
__________

A thought on deities: Surrounding us in this universe may indeed be beings as ffar beyond us as we humans are above ants. But have you created any ants llately? I guess you're not a deity, then.

Ah, but that 'shaping' thang... I have shaped many anthills. 'Flattened' is a shape, too. Did Lord {JHWH} and buddies just kick Earth around to shape it for their incomprehensible amusement? Has a deity stomped on you lately?

 

[phrodeau]

(edited)

As for the rib thang. Lord {JHWH} must have done some miracle work on he DNA because human male chromosomes are a broken version of female. Thus the Gen.2 story has Lord {JHWH} create (or shape?) an incomplete, non-reproducing human. Man needed more than merely a 'helpmeet', not if humanity was to be more than a one-off.

Some believe that humanity was originally supposed to be a one-off; that Adam was expected to be happy alone. Then when Eve became necessary, the two of them would be all that the garden needed. It was only after the apple incident that Eve was cursed with the pains of childbirth and a crampful, bleeding uterus. I suppose that was also the time that Adam got his balls.

 

[Hypoxia]

Some believe that humanity was originally supposed to be a one-off; that Adam was expected to be happy alone. Then when Eve became necessary, the two of them would be all that the garden needed. It was only after the apple incident that Eve was cursed with the pains of childbirth and a crampful, bleeding uterus. I suppose that was also the time that Adam got his balls.

That must have been in some apocrypha or pseudepigraphia that I mossed. Probably in the 6th or 7th Book of Moses. I never got past the signifyin' stuff. And the apple story told from the POV of the 'serpent' (talking iguana). "Hey, I was just bringing the latest rule update from Lord {JHWH}. Now look at all the shit that came down -- and ME to blame!"

 

[phrodeau]

That must have been in some apocrypha or pseudepigraphia that I mossed. Probably in the 6th or 7th Book of Moses. I never got past the signifyin' stuff. And the apple story told from the POV of the 'serpent' (talking iguana). "Hey, I was just bringing the latest rule update from Lord {JHWH}. Now look at all the shit that came down -- and ME to blame!"

Adam and Eve were made immortal. God told them that the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge would cause them to die. The serpent said they wouldn't die, so they ate it. God saw them eat it, so He made them die, eventually. That's the wages of sin. God cursed Eve at the time, making women the ones to bear children.

This is found in Protestant, Catholic and Jewish commentaries.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

What is this "nothing" of which you speak?

I am referring to the BEFORE the Universe was created. There was nothing. Unless you believe that the matter created it's self or is self existent, but that wouldn't be scientific. Matter cannot exist on it's own.

 

[Hypoxia]

This is found in Protestant, Catholic and Jewish commentaries.

Commentaries are fun. What Genesis SAYS is that a creature of the lord gave Man and Woman fresh instructions. The rest is spin.

I am referring to the BEFORE the Universe was created. There was nothing. Unless you believe that the matter created it's self or is self existent, but that wouldn't be scientific. Matter cannot exist on it's own.

Sez who? You seem to misapprehend the scientific method, which consists of questioning and testing. We have various hypotheses (not testable theories) of cosmological timelines but how do such relate to observable reality? Untestable hypotheses (such as all theology) are fun as mental masturbation. What's north of the North Pole? What happened before Creation? These are meaningless questions.

 

[phrodeau]

I am referring to the BEFORE the Universe was created. There was nothing. Unless you believe that the matter created it's self or is self existent, but that wouldn't be scientific. Matter cannot exist on it's own.

What color was your soul before you were born?

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

What color was your soul before you were born?

I don't know I've never seen it. But I have seen matter and energy and know that scientifically, it is impossible for them to exist.

 

[Richard_P_Feynman]

I don't know I've never seen it. But I have seen matter and energy and know that scientifically, it is impossible for them to exist.

By what logic?

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

By what logic?

The logic of science. The logic of any reasonable human being. Something cannot materialize from nothing. It's the 3rd law of thermodynamics. Matter and Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only converted one to another.

 

[Richard_P_Feynman]

The logic of science. The logic of any reasonable human being. Something cannot materialize from nothing. It's the 3rd law of thermodynamics. Matter and Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only converted one to another.

Are you referring to the fact of the existence of somethingness rather than nothingness? Almost by definition, any ultimate explanation for existence would be extra-natural to the laws of physics as they are currently understood. Neither is there anything logically contradictory about the fact of an arbitrary something existing rather than not existing.

And you're probably referring to the first law of thermodynamics. The third law has to do with entropy of systems at absolute zero.