Let's talk about fascism

[richard_daily]

No. That's absolutely, and unequivocally false.

I assign the term to government control over the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services.




If it's not government control over the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services then what is it?



If regulations giving the government control over the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services isn't socialism then what is it?



Then so are Stalin, Mao, Pot, Castro, Kim and several other LOVELY socialist.

I was talking about USA, last 30 years....much closer to modern L v R issues and for more representative of current events. But if you want to go a full century worth of "which team has the biggest jerks" that's cool too!

You don't understand what "government control" means... Are you simply reading conservapedia to get your understanding of that?

It's way off base... regulations are NOT government control. No matter how hard you want them to be.

And none of the people you listed, except maybe Castro were socialists in any way, shape, or form.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Fascism is not possible without authoritarian, right-leaning, militaristic control.

So what do you call it when it's an authoritarian, fully left, militaristic control?

 

[BotanyBoy]

You don't understand what "government control" means... Are you simply reading conservapedia to get your understanding of that?

It's way off base... regulations are NOT government control. No matter how hard you want them to be.

If regulations aren't government control then what are they?

Last I checked that's EXACTLY what regulations are.

And none of the people you listed, except maybe Castro were socialists in any way, shape, or form.

BAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Sorry but socialism =/= warm n' fuzzy, every one of them was socialist at their core despite their various spins on it.

And each was squarely on team lefty.

 

[richard_daily]

So what do you call it when it's an authoritarian, fully left, militaristic control?

It can be totalitarian, authoritarian, or a dictatorship. However, there aren't many left-leaning militaristic regimes. Meduro is arguably left-leaning, but pol pot, pinnochet, or stalin were not. Stalin rejected the core tenants of socialism and marxism and he was firmly right of center.

So if you want to argue that Nicolas (sp?) Meduro is a left-leaning autocrat, I'll give you that. I can't think of another modern example though.

 

[richard_daily]

If regulations aren't government control then what are they?

Last I checked that's EXACTLY what regulations are.




BAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Sorry but socialism =/= warm n' fuzzy, every one of them was socialist at their core despite their various spins on it.

And each was squarely on team lefty.

No, each wasn't on team lefty. Read up on your history.

Castro, absolutely leftist... The rest, not at all. However, Castro wasn't an ardent socialist.

 

[richard_daily]

If regulations aren't government control then what are they?

Last I checked that's EXACTLY what regulations are.

a : to govern or direct according to ruleb (1) : to bring under the control of law or constituted authority (2) : to make regulations for or concerning regulate the industries of a country

Are you attempting to argue that ALL laws are socialist?

Come on...

 

[BotanyBoy]

No, each wasn't on team lefty. Read up on your history.

I've done plenty of reading, and Stalin/Mao were leftist.

But if you want to argue that red china and the Soviet Union were a bunch of freedom loving capitalist right wingers then go ahead and make your case...I'd love to hear that!

 

[richard_daily]

I've done plenty of reading, and Stalin/Mao were leftist.

But if you want to argue that red china and the Soviet Union were a bunch of freedom loving capitalist right wingers then go ahead and make your case...I'd love to hear that!

Stalin imprisoned leftists... He railed against environmentalism, and rejected the teachings of Marx (who was a leftist). You can argue that state ownership is inherently left wing, but I'd argue that there are plenty of examples where that's not the case.

Why do you think Stalin was left wing? I think that's the real question.

You can ascribe early sentiments of Mao as leftist, but as he became more authoritarian, his actions shifted further and further to right-leaning authoritarianism, especially clear in his support of Chiang Kai-shek, who was a right-wing authoritarian through and through.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Are you attempting to argue that ALL laws are socialist?

Come on...

No, and I never have. I've never even said that socialism is inherently a negative or bad thing.

I'm saying laws/regulation (Government) controlling the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services are socialist.

Example:

Law: Don't murder people, not socialism.

Law: All people are entitled to equal protections under the law, not socialism.

Law: Everyone producing product x has to clean up their shit, socialism, generally positive.

Law: If you want to sell your product you have to do so through one of two licensed distributors for whatever shit price they toss you, or you're going to prison. ALSO socialism, generally negative.

 

[richard_daily]

No, and I never have. I've never even said that socialism is inherently a negative or bad thing.

I'm saying laws/regulation (Government) controlling the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services are socialist.

Example:

Law: Don't murder people, not socialism.

Law: All people are entitled to equal protections under the law, not socialism.

Law: Everyone producing product x has to clean up their shit, socialism, generally positive.

Law: If you want to sell your product you have to do so through one of two licensed distributors for whatever shit price they toss you, or you're going to prison. ALSO socialism, generally negative.

None of those are examples of socialism.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Stalin imprisoned leftists.

Only the leftist who didn't agree with him.

.. He railed against environmentalism, and rejected the teachings of Marx (who was a leftist).

Environmentalism isn't left and not fully, only the democratic aspects of Marxism.

You can argue that state ownership is inherently left wing, but I'd argue that there are plenty of examples where that's not the case.

Not really.

I also use a more classical liberal view of L v R.

There is pro state control on the left and anarchist on the right, like most living in the real world this is a sliding scale, the more government control the further left.

Why do you think Stalin was left wing? I think that's the real question.

Because he fit the criteria, he LOVED huge government with more government on top of that government buried under some more government all there to micromanage the economy.

Make sure nobody is out to make something for themselves like the evil capitalist pigs!!

You can ascribe early sentiments of Mao as leftist, but as he became more authoritarian, his actions shifted further and further to right-leaning authoritarianism, especially clear in his support of Chiang Kai-shek, who was a right-wing authoritarian through and through.

Authoritarian isn't right wing.

I don't know enough about Kai Shek to have an opinion but considering you've called Soviet Russia and Red China right wing I'm hesitant to believe that.

 

[BotanyBoy]

None of those are examples of socialism.

How is government control over the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services not socialism?

 

[Hypoxia]

Why do you think Stalin was left wing? I think that's the real question.

Lefty politics include empowerment of the people, tolerance of diversity, equality of opportunity, freedom of expression, dignity and respect of individuals and groups, etc. Stalin was certainly no leftist. No authoritarian regime can be liberal. All dictatorships are repressive.

Ah, fascism. Mussolini invented the art form. He defined it: "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Corporatist America has thus been a fascist state for quite a while. The corporate tools who run gov't are fascists, Gups and Dums alike. Nazi and rebel flag-wavers are a noisy fringe. Wall street is the beating heart.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Lefty politics include empowerment of the people, tolerance of diversity, equality of opportunity, freedom of expression, dignity and respect of individuals and groups, etc.

The left fucking hates those things. ESPECIALLY freedom of expression which is pretty much inherently anti-dignity and respect of individuals and groups.

Stalin was certainly no leftist. No authoritarian regime can be liberal. All dictatorships are repressive.

Yes he was, you're just conflating liberalism (which is out in right field with the libertarians) with leftism which doesn't have a fucking thing to do with diversity and equal opportunity or freedom of expression.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Lefty politics include empowerment of the people, tolerance of diversity, equality of opportunity, freedom of expression, dignity and respect of individuals and groups, etc. Stalin was certainly no leftist. No authoritarian regime can be liberal. All dictatorships are repressive.

Ah, fascism. Mussolini invented the art form. He defined it: "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Corporatist America has thus been a fascist state for quite a while. The corporate tools who run gov't are fascists, Gups and Dums alike. Nazi and rebel flag-wavers are a noisy fringe. Wall street is the beating heart.

The funny thing is that morons think that is capitalism.

 

[richard_daily]

The funny thing is that morons think that is capitalism.

That's how it works in this country.

 

[Rightguide]

Only the leftist who didn't agree with him.



Environmentalism isn't left and not fully, only the democratic aspects of Marxism.



Not really.

I also use a more classical liberal view of L v R.

There is pro state control on the left and anarchist on the right, like most living in the real world this is a sliding scale, the more government control the further left.



Because he fit the criteria, he LOVED huge government with more government on top of that government buried under some more government all there to micromanage the economy.

Make sure nobody is out to make something for themselves like the evil capitalist pigs!!



Authoritarian isn't right wing.

I don't know enough about Kai Shek to have an opinion but considering you've called Soviet Russia and Red China right wing I'm hesitant to believe that.

He doesn't see a political scale that envisions two extremes with total government on the extreme left (Communism) and no government on the extreme right (anarchy). Too much for the small minded and dishonest leftist to admit because it rightly places all forms totalitarianism on the same side of the scale. Today's liberal hates to admit his ever so close associations with totalitarianism.

 

[richard_daily]

He doesn't see a political scale that envisions two extremes with total government on the extreme left (Communism) and no government on the extreme right (anarchy). Too much for the small minded and dishonest leftist to admit because it rightly places all forms totalitarianism on the same side of the scale. Today's liberal hates to admit his ever so close associations with totalitarianism.

You're an idiot.

Anarchism isn't on the right. It never has been associated with the right, until the alt-right tried to co-opt it. You're a fool who falls for re-branding, hook, line and sinker.

Have you ever heard of the FAI or the CNT? The West Virginia Coal wars? John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry? Do a little research before you randomly spout off terms you have no comprehension of.

Totalitarianism is a right wing anti-egalitarian model. Just like fascism.

You can try to confuse and conflate all you want, but history shows us otherwise.

 

[BotanyBoy]

That's how it works in this country.

Just because people like to pretend the US is capitalist doesn't make the corporatocracy we have capitalism.

He doesn't see a political scale that envisions two extremes with total government on the extreme left (Communism) and no government on the extreme right (anarchy).

It's absolutely beyond comprehension apparently.

Too much for the small minded and dishonest leftist to admit because it rightly places all forms totalitarianism on the same side of the scale.

I don't think they are small minded, just human.

Just trying to protect the sanctity of their own ideology....like parents who pretend their lil shit could NEVER do a thing like act like a little shit head.

Today's liberal hates to admit his ever so close associations with totalitarianism.

I'm about done with the flagrant misuse of the term liberal too.

Today's "liberal" as commonly referred to by american partisans is almost always a run of the mill socialist/social justice Democrat.....not at all liberal.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You're an idiot.

Anarchism isn't on the right. It never has been associated with the right,

BAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

It's only the freest of markets and the capitalists wet dream, totally not right wing at all.

Totalitarianism is a right wing anti-egalitarian model. Just like fascism.

What exactly do you think the difference between right and left is??

You can try to confuse and conflate all you want, but history shows us otherwise.

No shit....Stalin, Mao, Pot, Castro, the Kims, all the biggest lefties out there are some of the most tyrannical murderous states that have EVER existed.

 

[richard_daily]

BAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

It's only the freest of markets and the capitalists wet dream, totally not right wing at all.

No, that's not what anarchy is...


Definition of anarchism

1
: a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

2
: the advocacy or practice of anarchistic principles

Have you ever heard of May Day? The international workers holiday?

Do you believe that it was brought into being by those on the right?

What exactly do you think the difference between right and left is??

Social issues.

The right is for authoritarian religious control over thought. The left is for free-thinking, individual rights and liberty.

No shit....Stalin, Mao, Pot, Castro, the Kims, all the biggest lefties out there are some of the most tyrannical murderous states that have EVER existed.

Again, can you tell me what made Stalin a leftist?

Other than "he fit the profile"?

Give me some specifics. Some policies and actions that he implemented that are left wing in nature.

I'll look forward to your honest, educated, and well-reasoned response.

 

[BotanyBoy]

No, that's not what anarchy is...


Definition of anarchism

1
: a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

Sounds like a free market capitalists paradise and the exact opposite of socialism which advocates government control over fuckin' everything.

Social issues.

That's where we semi-disagree.

Social issues are ancillary to the primary social issue, economics.

Socialism (government control) being on the left, capitalism (individual/private control in a free market) is on the right.

The right is for authoritarian religious control over thought.

That's a theocracy which could be argued a mutant proto-conservatism and thus kinda right wing.

But on the Government control (socialism) <-----vs-----> Personal freedom (anarchy) scale.....it's also at it's core left wing. You're just swapping state for church to the same effect.

The left is for free-thinking, individual rights and liberty.

So you're saying your hugely anti-nanny state, pro-individual rights, minimalist government control, free market capitalist libertarians and classical liberals....are left wing??

https://goldsilverbitcoin.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PJ-Ron-Paul-1.jpg

But Stalin who was all about the iron fisted Soviet god state controlling everything was right wing?

Wow...Soviet Russia was right wing folks!! LOL

Again, can you tell me what made Stalin a leftist?

His advocacy for state control AND ownership over the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services.

Soviet Russia was left wing, not right.

 

[richard_daily]

These look like left-wingers, don't they?

https://farm6.static.flickr.com/5452/30805615955_be6df92b62_b.jpg

 

[BotanyBoy]

These look like left-wingers, don't they?

Nationalist ones it looks like.

If you talked to them I doubt very much they believe in things like free market capitalism and individual liberty.

I bet they love a police state and government control, different package and sales pitch!

But the same fundamental behavior.

Just like all the other kinds lefties.

 

[richard_daily]

Nationalist ones it looks like.

If you talked to them I doubt very much they believe in things like free market capitalism and individual liberty.

I bet they love a police state and government control, different package and sales pitch!

But the same fundamental behavior.

Just like all the other kinds lefties.

3rd position fascism has been around for a long time, but no, that's not what they believe in. If you think they do, you're ignorant to reality.

Look at the website on the banner and try to to tell me that they're lefties. I dare you to.