CinC Trump Bans Transgenders In The Military

[SgtSpiderMan]

Let me guess, you didn't quote it because you know god damn good and well I never said "100% of trans people in the armed forces want/get surgery." anywhere in that fuckin' post.

Will your dishonesty never end?



To be fair only the ones on the right seem to be fat bodies and they appear to be European....the standard that (D)'s aspire to.

LOL. Called it.

 

[BotanyBoy]

LOL. Called it.

You have to point out where I said what you claim I did before I can backpedal from it.

So...LOL no you didn't you're just making shit up.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

You have to point out where I said what you claim I did before I can backpedal from it.

So...LOL no you didn't you're just making shit up.

It's still there inpost 219. 15,000 out of 15,000 is 100%. Keep on back pedaling.

 

[Worm]

If a dude wants to cut his dick off it is a mental disorder. He/She/It shouldn't be in the military.

/end

 

[GimpyIntellect]

What is they used their dick as a weapon?

Penis grenades everywhere!

 

[Worm]

What is they used their dick as a weapon?

Penis grenades everywhere!

https://www.extremerestraints.com/images/resized/a/ae604a_282_325.jpg

 

[BotanyBoy]

It's still there inpost 219.

I'm not seeing anywhere in that post where I say.

"100% of trans people in the armed forces want/get surgery."

Care to quote and bold that claim for everyone to see??

15,000 out of 15,000 is 100%.

OHHHH so the problem, again, is that you can't read.

Me shit talking Dan's absurd claims is not me claiming "100% of trans people in the armed forces want/get surgery." no matter how badly you want that to be the case.

Keep on back pedaling.

Can't backpedal from something I didn't claim, there is still hope for you https://www.hookedonphonics.com/

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

I'm not seeing anywhere in that post where I say.

"100% of trans people in the armed forces want/get surgery."

Care to quote and bold that claim for everyone to see??



OHHHH so the problem, again, is that you can't read.

Me shit talking Dan's absurd claims is not me claiming "100% of trans people in the armed forces want/get surgery." no matter how badly you want that to be the case.



Can't backpedal from something I didn't claim, there is still hope for you https://www.hookedonphonics.com/

You were directly quoted saying it, not Dan. Nice try. At this rate you'll be able to win next year's Tour de France if you're allowed to go backwards.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You were directly quoted saying it, not Dan.

No I wasn't, and I never claimed Dan said "100% of trans people in the armed forces want/get surgery." either.

Quote that where and highlight the words where I claim or I said Dan claimed "100% of trans people in the armed forces want/get surgery." for us all to see.

You won't because you can't.

You have a SEVERE literacy problem SGT, you might want to get that looked at.

 

[Que]

No I wasn't, and I never claimed Dan said "100% of trans people in the armed forces want/get surgery." either.

Quote that where and highlight the words where I claim or I said Dan claimed "100% of trans people in the armed forces want/get surgery." for us all to see.

You won't because you can't.

You have a SEVERE literacy problem SGT, you might want to get that looked at.

He doesn't believe in literacy tests.

 

[KimGordon67]

I have looked for years and have not found anything supporting your claims. (I am probably the first person here at Lit questioning the politicizing of transgenderism, did a thread 3 years ago)

It is possible that you have knowledge that I don't possess. If you will present it, I will read it. Your post was very specific, even noting "a number of grounds", so it stands to reason you should have the evidence and what these grounds are at your fingertips.

I'll admit that I haven't read these specific articles, as suicide rates among the general trans population isn't my specific area, but I'm familiar enough with the general literature to know that more recent arguments around depression, suicide, etc rates among the trans population are linked more to social attitudes than a specific psychological issue inherent in trans people themselves. The abstracts, specifically the conclusions, of these pieces tend to support that argument - these were just ones that I found with a pretty simple search on Google Scholar:
http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2016-54162-001
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301424
https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2

I'm not sure if you want more, but there certainly ARE more.
The theory would also tend to be supported by the fact that, to the best of my knowledge suicide/depression/etc rates are much lower among trans populations in non-western cultures, where there is usually a more social recognised 'space' for these populations. (I don't have evidence for that immediately to hand, and would need to go searching, but I'm pretty confident it is the case.)

It's not really rocket science. If you're part of a group that's socially marginalised, regularly subjected to abuse and violence, etc, one would expect the suicide/depression/etc rates to be higher among that group. That's not evidence that the group is 'more mentally ill' than any other group in society except inasmuch as the suicide/depression/etc is related to social marginalisation.

For trans people, the other clear issue is, should they want it, lack of easy access to the means to transition. However, this is a more complex issue, as in non-western cultures which are less inclined to have a strictly binary gender system, there is usually little-to-no desire to 'transition', so it's difficult to tell if the issues related to the lack of ability to transition are related to the strict binary nature of contemporary western systems, and the pressure to fit into that.

 

[KimGordon67]

Like, lets do some basic arithmetic, LITERALLY!!

15,000 transgender folks, average gender reassignment surgery is about 160k + 1500 a year in hormone therapy plus pay during the month off for surgery and several months they aren't working beyond getting big col. some coffee because recovering from their surgery. Let's just call that 50k.

210,000 x 15,000 = what Dan? Not 8 million.

Ruined, literally by basic arithmetic



Also...transgender folks are literally only 0.3% of the population, keeping things proportional there would only be 3850 in the military. Over 15,000 is a little more than hopeful, even for the SJW loonies much less anyone capable of basic arithmetic.

Ruined. Literally.

This argument is just silly. I'll admit that I've not read the entire thread, but I'm assuming that the basic argument is that trans folk shouldn't be in the military because of the high medical costs? So you firstly demonstrate that the medical cost would, indeed, be astronomical ... but you then cut your argument off by saying there actually aren't as many trans folk in the military as everyone is saying ... so wouldn't the medical costs then be commensurately less.

Also, the fundamental problem with your initial calculations (and any other similar calculations) is that you're assuming every trans person who enters the military is pre-operative AND that every single one of them wants to have surgery. I'd be truly surprised if the first point is true, and the second point definitely isn't - there's a fairly significant chunk of the trans population who don't want surgery. (And there'd probably be more if people weren't so obsessed with the 'are you really a 'man' or a 'woman' question, and just stopped caring about things that are fundamentally none of their business.)

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

I'll admit that I haven't read these specific articles, as suicide rates among the general trans population isn't my specific area, but I'm familiar enough with the general literature to know that more recent arguments around depression, suicide, etc rates among the trans population are linked more to social attitudes than a specific psychological issue inherent in trans people themselves. The abstracts, specifically the conclusions, of these pieces tend to support that argument - these were just ones that I found with a pretty simple search on Google Scholar:
http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2016-54162-001
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301424
https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2

I'm not sure if you want more, but there certainly ARE more.
The theory would also tend to be supported by the fact that, to the best of my knowledge suicide/depression/etc rates are much lower among trans populations in non-western cultures, where there is usually a more social recognised 'space' for these populations. (I don't have evidence for that immediately to hand, and would need to go searching, but I'm pretty confident it is the case.)

It's not really rocket science. If you're part of a group that's socially marginalised, regularly subjected to abuse and violence, etc, one would expect the suicide/depression/etc rates to be higher among that group. That's not evidence that the group is 'more mentally ill' than any other group in society except inasmuch as the suicide/depression/etc is related to social marginalisation.

For trans people, the other clear issue is, should they want it, lack of easy access to the means to transition. However, this is a more complex issue, as in non-western cultures which are less inclined to have a strictly binary gender system, there is usually little-to-no desire to 'transition', so it's difficult to tell if the issues related to the lack of ability to transition are related to the strict binary nature of contemporary western systems, and the pressure to fit into that.

I sincerely appreciate your thorough response. But still, your response contains no evidence. The abstracts to papers present no evidence either. I've never any evidence. Honestly I would love to see evidence because then I would start thinking the "correct, enlightened" way on the issue and not be afraid to voice my opinion IRL. I can't be the only one who feels this way. So please, where is the evidence? Where are actual facts and stats?

 

[KimGordon67]

I sincerely appreciate your thorough response. But still, your response contains no evidence. The abstracts to papers present no evidence either. I've never any evidence. Honestly I would love to see evidence because then I would start thinking the "correct, enlightened" way on the issue and not be afraid to voice my opinion IRL. I can't be the only one who feels this way. So please, where is the evidence? Where are actual facts and stats?

Evidence of what, exactly?

Sorry ... see below. I tracked back and found your original question that I was responding to (which I forgotten the details of the interim). See below.

 

[KimGordon67]

Sorry, the last link didn't seem to work, but it goes to an article titled 'Intervenable factors associated with suicide risk in transgender persons: a respondent driven sampling study in Ontario, Canada'.
The Conclusion in the abstract reads:
"Large effect sizes were observed for this controlled analysis of intervenable factors, suggesting that interventions to increase social inclusion and access to medical transition, and to reduce transphobia, have the potential to contribute to substantial reductions in the extremely high prevalences of suicide ideation and attempts within trans populations. Such interventions at the population level may require policy change."

That's seems like evidence that social exclusion is fairly directly correlated to suicide ideation to me.

Do you have facts and stats to prove your assertion that, if I'm correct, trans people are somehow inherently mentally ill?

 

[BotanyBoy]

This argument is just silly. I'll admit that I've not read the entire thread, but I'm assuming that the basic argument is that trans folk shouldn't be in the military because of the high medical costs?

No my argument is that DanC is full of shit.

So you firstly demonstrate that the medical cost would, indeed, be astronomical ... but you then cut your argument off by saying there actually aren't as many trans folk in the military as everyone is saying ... so wouldn't the medical costs then be commensurately less.

Also, the fundamental problem with your initial calculations (and any other similar calculations) is that you're assuming every trans person who enters the military is pre-operative AND that every single one of them wants to have surgery. I'd be truly surprised if the first point is true, and the second point definitely isn't - there's a fairly significant chunk of the trans population who don't want surgery.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa.....I was shit talking Dan, not trying to get the best calculations of the medical costs of social experimentation in the military.

And there'd probably be more if people weren't so obsessed with the 'are you really a 'man' or a 'woman' question, and just stopped caring about things that are fundamentally none of their business.

That is fundamentally every soldiers bidnizz.

Male soldiers are held to MUCH higher physical standards in the military and that is considered some serious shit, especially in combat arms. Nobody wants a half stepper watching their back.

Easiest way to solve that would be to make it 1 standard by MOS's and quit giving females a damn near 50% handicap. Then none of it would matter, you meet the standards of the job or gtfo.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I sincerely appreciate your thorough response. But still, your response contains no evidence. The abstracts to papers present no evidence either. I've never any evidence. Honestly I would love to see evidence because then I would start thinking the "correct, enlightened" way on the issue and not be afraid to voice my opinion IRL. I can't be the only one who feels this way. So please, where is the evidence? Where are actual facts and stats?

I left two links in your thread that you might find very interesting.

 

[Ishmael]

Sorry, the last link didn't seem to work, but it goes to an article titled 'Intervenable factors associated with suicide risk in transgender persons: a respondent driven sampling study in Ontario, Canada'.
The Conclusion in the abstract reads:
"Large effect sizes were observed for this controlled analysis of intervenable factors, suggesting that interventions to increase social inclusion and access to medical transition, and to reduce transphobia, have the potential to contribute to substantial reductions in the extremely high prevalences of suicide ideation and attempts within trans populations. Such interventions at the population level may require policy change."

That's seems like evidence that social exclusion is fairly directly correlated to suicide ideation to me.

Do you have facts and stats to prove your assertion that, if I'm correct, trans people are somehow inherently mentally ill?

So in essence this study is saying that the rest of society must change (How? Legal sanctions?) and that society must also bear the financial burdens of the treatments, both medical and psychological, for a group of people for which there is NO known biological reason for their desires/behavior?

And quite frankly, why is a 40% suicide rate for such an infinitesimally small population group considered some sort of tragedy? It's virtually Darwinian in it's aspect.

There is a whole list of 'types' that I choose NOT to associate with and as long as I/you/we have the right of 'free association' that will be so. For all of their altruistic mouthing off even those advocates have their own lists, the mere existence of which renders their arguments but hollow sophism's.

Ishmael

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Sorry, the last link didn't seem to work, but it goes to an article titled 'Intervenable factors associated with suicide risk in transgender persons: a respondent driven sampling study in Ontario, Canada'.
The Conclusion in the abstract reads:
"Large effect sizes were observed for this controlled analysis of intervenable factors, suggesting that interventions to increase social inclusion and access to medical transition, and to reduce transphobia, have the potential to contribute to substantial reductions in the extremely high prevalences of suicide ideation and attempts within trans populations. Such interventions at the population level may require policy change."

That's seems like evidence that social exclusion is fairly directly correlated to suicide ideation to me.

Do you have facts and stats to prove your assertion that, if I'm correct, trans people are somehow inherently mentally ill?

This is not evidence, it is a conclusion. Furthermore it says "suggesting" "potential" to "contribute" to reductions in suicide ideation. This is a big maybe. I don't understand how you can be so sure of an outcome when you yourself have not reviewed any actual facts.

I made no assertion that trans people are inherently mentally ill.

Back to your original post:

The 'suicide rate' argument is fundamentally flawed on a number of grounds. But let's just go with that logic for a moment. In the US, men are 3-5 more likely to commit suicide than women. So I guess we should also exclude men from military service?

Recent research is pretty clearly demonstrating that issues like suicide are higher among the trans population because of discrimination and marginalisation, not something that's inherent to being trans. 'Discrimination and marginalisation' would include things ... like, hmmm? ... maybe excluding a particular group from serving in the military?

What are the grounds?

Where is this recent research?

 

[RobDownSouth]

Transgenders offend Funkenstein, Vetteman and Gump by their very existence, we get it.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

What ever happened to good old fashioned life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?


When did it become "persecution, retribution and the conforming with the norm"?

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Transgenders offend Funkenstein, Vetteman and Gump by their very existence, we get it.

You have no idea about what "offends" me. Why can't you simply disagree with me and explain why if you are so inclined? Making things up like this does nothing for the discussion. There is no value in your post, why bother, why waste everyone's time?

 

[Rightguide]

Wrong post

 

[dan_c00000]

average gender reassignment surgery is about 160k + 1500 a year in hormone therapy

I'm curious where you're getting these numbers from.

He just made up those numbers. I did not quote any specific price for gender reassignment surgery.

So let's look at some prices:

The Philadelphia Center for Transgender Surgery Male to Female costs a little over $140k. So about $20k less than bot's made up number. Female to male is about $125k. So about $36k less than bot's made up number.

That's of course before any health insurance is applied. Now a company like Goldman Sachs has been covering stuff like this since 2008.

Does the military? Yup. Even Tucker Carlson's bullshit site covered the news.

Ultimately, bot made up a lie (I provided pricing for gender reassignment surgery) and then lied about the price.

Take about utter asshole destruction.

 

[BotanyBoy]

What ever happened to good old fashioned life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Socialism is stomping the last of it out.

Congrats, your team won.

He just made up those numbers.

No I didn't, you said 15k in the military and my price for surgery was between the high end I found online and the low end, which isn't much lower than what you quoted.

You ever come up with a link to where I claimed to have a PhD?

You're the liar Dan, and always will be.