One World Goverment

[BotanyBoy]

At least you acknowledge that socialism isn't necessarily bad.

It's not necessarily bad but it's un-American as it gets.

I agree that it can go horribly wrong, but so can capitalism. More so with capitalism imho, since it doesn't concern itself with the well being of citizens in times of economic crises.

Right....everyone is responsible for their own shit.

If you don't get out and hustle you're going to fuckin' starve.

Socialism does, in theory anyway if not always in practice.

Socialism only does so in good times.

Bad times is when capitalism says "everyone for yourselves" and socialism starts murdering people by the literal fuckin' train load.

Every socialist state that's fallen on hard times has killed tens of thousand if not millions.

Capitalism has never done any such thing, it just leaves those who don't produce out in the cold or at the mercy of charity.

U.S.A.: Flawed democracy with mixed economy, mostly capitalist.

How do you figure one of the most regulated and enforced economies of all time is mostly capitalist?

A reasoned debate on the relative merits of different economic & political systems is impossible without some sort of agreement over definition of terms. Agreed?

Sure.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You must be new here. Bot will agree to that in principle but will never agree to any terms or definitions but his own.

^ Thinks totalitarian state control over industry = capitalism...but only when it's going horribly wrong.

 

[KingOrfeo]

It's not necessarily bad but it's un-American as it gets.

Americanness is not ontological, it is circumstantial. There is nothing un-American, good or bad, that cannot in the right circumstances become as American as taco bowls.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

By the late 19th century, and after further articulation and advancement by Karl Marx and his collaborator Friedrich Engels as the culmination of technological development outstripping the economic dynamics of capitalism,[34] "socialism" had come to signify opposition to capitalism and advocacy for a post-capitalist system based on some form of social ownership of the means of production.

Same source

Remember, Wikipedia's editorial board is dominated by Leftist academics with a decided bias.

 

[KingOrfeo]

^ Thinks totalitarian state control over industry =

= not what we have now.

 

[BotanyBoy]

There is nothing un-American, good or bad, that cannot in the right circumstances become as American as taco bowls.

Except that whole freedom and individuality bit being core principals of what it means to be "M'erican!" .

And socialism is ANTI-freedom, diversity and individuality.

It FORCES everyone into compliance at the end of a gun.

There is no freedom or individual choice when it comes to socialism.

Just like I don't run my companies....the State of California and the FDA do.

I'm just a paper clerk/manager for a state run farm.

 

[Maidboy]

Who's maid are you boy?
You fuck weeds are in a totally different reality from the rest of the world.

None of your goddamn business, punk. The rest of the world is laughing at silly, ignorant dipshits like you.

 

[BotanyBoy]

= not what we have now.

I never said it was.

 

[KingOrfeo]

I never said it was.

You keep saying it over and over.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You keep saying it over and over.

I've never said we live under a totalitarian state.

And you can't quote me because you're full of shit.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Except that whole freedom and individuality bit being core principals of what it means to be "M'erican!"

No, not even that is ontological; an America without freedom would still be America, just like France without a king is still France.

 

[KingOrfeo]

I've never said we live under a totalitarian state.

Then what do you consider a totalitarian state? Only the obvious examples like NK, or is Sweden also totalitarian?

 

[BotanyBoy]

an America without freedom would still be America,

Only geographically.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Only geographically.

And culturally. Since 1788 France has had five monarchies, five republics and a fascist regime, yet through it all France has remained France, the same nation and culture. A country is not its political system, and America is no different from France in that regard.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Then what do you consider a totalitarian state? Only the obvious examples like NK, or is Sweden also totalitarian?

Really only the obvious...NK....China...Nazi Germany...the old Soviet Union.

It's the extreme endgame of socialism, the opposite of pure individual freedom or anarchy.

Sweden nor the US are quite there though both are just an

"emergency"
https://grammarwithteeth.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/dr-evil-aie-quotes.jpg?w=500

From winding up one, US being the far more likely/prone than Sweden as we have the police state to enforce it.

 

[trysail]

"This is why Rocket's moment in history is unique. That soot-blackened locomotive sits squarely at the deflection point where a line describing human productivity (and therefore human welfare) that had been as flat as Kansas for a hundred centuries made a turn like the business end of a hockey stick. Rocket is when humanity finally learned to run twice as fast.

It's still running today. If you examined the years since 1800 in twenty year-increments, and charted every way that human welfare can be expressed in numbers— not just annual per capita GDP, which climbed to more than $6,000 by 2000, but mortality at birth (in fact, mortality at any age); calories consumed; prevalence of disease; average height of adults; percentage of lifetime spent disabled; percentage of population enrolled in primary, secondary, and postsecondary education; illiteracy; and annual hours of leisure time— the chart will show every measure better at the end of the period than it was at the beginning. And the phenomenon isn't restricted to Europe and North America; the same improvements have occurred in every region of the world. A baby born in France in 1800 could expect to live thirty years— twenty-five years less than a baby born in the Republic of the Congo in 2000. The nineteenth century French infant would be at a significant risk of starvation, infectious disease, and violence, and even if he or she were to survive into adulthood, would be far less likely to learn how to read..."
​

-William Rosen
The Most Powerful Idea in the World: A Story of Steam, Industry, and Invention
New York, New York 2010.​

​

Wow! I don't know where William Rosen has been hiding all these years (the dust jacket blurb says Rosen is: "the author of the award-winning history Justinian's Flea: Plague, Empire, and the Birth of Europe, was an editor and publisher at Macmillan, Simon & Schuster, and the Free Press for nearly twenty-five years" ) but this book is a riveting, tour-de-force recounting of the Industrial Revolution that is beautifully written and thoroughly researched. Rosen is very clearly a bit of a polymath; he moves easily from the chemistry of iron and combustion to the geology of England's Midlands to the physics of Newcomen's steam engine to the inventions of John Smeaton.

This is a book that ought to be read by every person who purports to be educated.





​

 

[BotanyBoy]

And culturally. Since 1788 France has had five monarchies, five republics and a fascist regime, yet through it all France has remained France, the same nation and culture.

IDGAF....that's france and their bullshit.

A country is not its political system, and America is no different from France in that regard.

No it's not but the USA was FOUNDED upon a political principals that are outlined in the Constitution and DOI.

Unlike France which has a much older lineage and was never established as a "Fuck you and your socialist bullshit." country like the USA was.

 

[trysail]

IDGAF....that's france and their bullshit.




No it's not but the USA was FOUNDED upon a political principals that are outlined in the Constitution and DOI.

Unlike France which has a much older lineage and was never established as a "Fuck you and your socialist bullshit." country like the USA was.

Face it, you're dealing with a latent fascist and a closet dictator who finds genuine freedom abhorrent.


He'd very much prefer that we all goose-step in accord with his orders.



​

 

[Hard_Rom]

And culturally. Since 1788 France has had five monarchies, five republics and a fascist regime, yet through it all France has remained France, the same nation and culture. A country is not its political system, and America is no different from France in that regard.

Bog No! I had hopes that if the USA adopted a Westminster style of government there would be some hope. Damn!

 

[BotanyBoy]

Face it, you're dealing with a latent fascist and a closet dictator who finds genuine freedom abhorrent.


He'd very much prefer that we all goose-step in accord with his orders.



​

I know, but it's fun.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Bog No! I had hopes that if the USA adopted a Westminster style of government there would be some hope. Damn!

Why does everyone want the USA to be so European so badly?

 

[Hard_Rom]

Why does everyone want the USA to be so European so badly?

The UK much of the time does not include itself in Europe. Canada, Australia and New Zealand are far from Europe. We just want the US to rejoin the Anglosphere family. Japan and Israel are not European. Aside from Ireland and the UK no European governments are of the Westminster system. They all have republican style governments.

So why does the US want to be like the Europeans?

 

[KingOrfeo]

The UK much of the time does not include itself in Europe.

Yeah, what's that all about?! It's like saying Asia does not include Japan, it's geographically true but culturally false.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Yeah, what's that all about?! It's like saying Asia does not include Japan, it's geographically true but culturally false.

Actually geographically false and culturally true. Geographically both Japan and the British isles are connected to the continent near by. It is the relative isolation which made for a cultural difference. Only the UK and Ireland use a Westminster style of government. The Euros are all republicans. Japan also uses a Westminster style of government.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Aside from Ireland and the UK no European governments are of the Westminster system. They all have republican style governments.

It doesn't require a monarchy, it could have a ceremonial president. What distinguishes a presidential or separation-of-powers system from a parliamentary system is an executive (a real one) who is elected separately from the legislature and has an independent mandate.