I thought I'd cracked it....

[UnderMyKilt]

....then I get this rejection on a long story in 2 parts with no underage.

"Please fix the formatting of your punctuation. Generally, the rule is to have no spaces before most punctuation (periods, commas, exclamation points, etc.), and one space after them. Please read the essay "How to Punctuate Like a Pro" in the Writer's Resource section (link below) for more complete instructions."

In my view, this is a very very minor point, considering a lot of the poor stuff that is accepted, for people reading my stuff to pick up on and I have re-read a lot of the rejected piece (19 pages) and cannot find an example of the breach of rules as above.

I agree. It's a minor point and one that runs contrary to what many of us were taught in the typing classes of our generation. Space, space after a period is so ingrained into the muscle memory of my thumbs, especially when I'm typing fast, that there's no way I can break it without slowing down considerably.

I also studied journalism in high school and college where we did our own layouts and paste-ups for offset press lithography using IBM Wheelwriters and other variable space, font and pitch typewriters. Again, we were taught to double space after a period.

Another point is that some of us may be put extra space between words, or even something akin to....to show a pause or hesitation in thought or speech. Is this going to be cause for rejection as well?

 

[Haulover]

...
Another point is that some of us may be put extra space between words, or even something akin to....to show a pause or hesitation in thought or speech. Is this going to be cause for rejection as well?

No.

I've done it and it wasn't rejected.

An ellipsis is an accepted form in grammar.

 

[sr71plt]

I also studied journalism in high school and college where we did our own layouts and paste-ups for offset press lithography using IBM Wheelwriters and other variable space, font and pitch typewriters. Again, we were taught to double space after a period.

Another point is that some of us may be put extra space between words, or even something akin to....to show a pause or hesitation in thought or speech. Is this going to be cause for rejection as well?

Printers do (and always have) put a bit more leading between sentences, but not a full character's worth. The typewriter can't handle partial leading. The computer can/does.

" . . . " is what's proper to show pause or hesitation. Note the character spaces between the dots (all of them). That's a publisher's ellipsis. Computer programs don't do it the way publishers do.

 

[uksnowy]

Thanks to all and sundry, not quite the flaming I expected. I am not trying to wind anyone up, just the satisfaction of getting my stuff in.

I am using another story website and getting in there happily without the restrictions in here, but when I do post in here I try to make sure the underage thing is edited correctly, however saying that, I find my latest slipped by my net so rejected it is. Will consider a re-post after playing with it. But not bothered really - any more

 

[NicoleZ]

Erbs. of course Toe-may-toes.sked-jool. Moh-buhl. Lee-zhuhr. wah-ta (water). Oh, american dialects are just as good. I could make fun of american regional dialects all day. And that's nof even starting on canadians eh! Good thing we can all write and read

Hmm... too cheeky by half I see. I shall have to ponder a new story; "The Taming of Chloe". First, you'll have an appointment with Penny Atherton...

 

[Bramblethorn]

I agree. It's a minor point and one that runs contrary to what many of us were taught in the typing classes of our generation. Space, space after a period is so ingrained into the muscle memory of my thumbs, especially when I'm typing fast, that there's no way I can break it without slowing down considerably.

I learned that way too, but it's a work-around for a limitation that no longer exists.

If you can't shake the habit, there's an easy solution: write your story, let your thumbs do their thing, and then once you're done use a search-and-replace to turn all the double-spaces into singles for submission.

Another point is that some of us may be put extra space between words, or even something akin to....to show a pause or hesitation in thought or speech. Is this going to be cause for rejection as well?

Ellipsis between words for a Shatneresque...pause...is fine. But extra space between words? Do you mean like this?

I've never seen that in prose, and if I did encounter it here I'd probably read it as a typo or a formatting error rather than a timing cue.

Note that those extra spaces will be invisible if they coincide with a line break, and you can't control where readers get their line breaks, so this doesn't seem like a reliable method.

Maybe in poetry, if you're writing something like E.E. Cummings, but in prose it just seems likely to confuse readers.

 

[sr71plt]

I've never seen that in prose, and if I did encounter it here I'd probably read it as a typo or a formatting error rather than a timing cue.

That's while you will never see it from a publishing house product. They know the reader will assume it's publishing house sloppiness, so they wouldn't allow it in prose.

 

[Green_Knight]

" . . . " is what's proper to show pause or hesitation. Note the character spaces between the dots (all of them). That's a publisher's ellipsis. Computer programs don't do it the way publishers do.

The latest edition of Hart's Rules says that the ellipsis can be set as a single character (Unicode code point U+2026 horizontal ellipsis), and notes that many word processors will autocorrect three dots into a single glyph. It says that some publishers prefer either normal word spaces or fixed (narrower) spaces between the points. Personally, I prefer that if spaces have to be used between the points, fixed narrow spaces should be used rather than word spaces. This is because word spacing can become overlarge in justified text (especially if the text is not hyphenated), in which case the ellipsis would become unwieldy.

New technology has always changed the way things are printed — from the introduction of metal type, through the invention of the Linotype and Monotype machines, to the latest digital tools. The introduction of the single glyph ellipsis as part of the digital toolset is one such change. The redefinition of the em is another. Unfortunately, publishing is a very conservative industry and takes time to adapt to change. Sometimes it doesn't manage to adapt before economic forces created by technological change put it out of business.

 

[Green_Knight]

Ellipsis between words for a Shatneresque...pause...is fine. But extra space between words? Do you mean like this?

I assume that the text editor used here defeated your attempt at showing the example. It seems to automatically strip out double spaces.

 

[RejectReality]

I still put two spaces after every end of sentence punctuation mark, I don't change it before submission, and it goes through just fine. If that was a cause for rejection, every one of my 200+ submissions could have triggered it. I don't edit it for submission on any of the other sites where I post either. Same deal.

The number of spaces after aren't on Laurel's radar, unless you put a space after a punctuation mark and then a closing quotation mark. That will trigger her.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I assume that the text editor used here defeated your attempt at showing the example. It seems to automatically strip out double spaces.

Apparently so. Yeah, there were supposed to be multiple spaces there.

 

[RejectReality]

If you're talking about emphasizing every word of a statement individually, the standard format I've seen used and used myself is:

No. Fucking. Way.

It seems to be largely understood, and doesn't trigger rejections on any of the sites I post on. ( one of which is far more grammar stringent than here )

 

[Green_Knight]

I still put two spaces after every end of sentence punctuation mark, I don't change it before submission, and it goes through just fine. If that was a cause for rejection, every one of my 200+ submissions could have triggered it. I don't edit it for submission on any of the other sites where I post either. Same deal.

The number of spaces after aren't on Laurel's radar, unless you put a space after a punctuation mark and then a closing quotation mark. That will trigger her.

It may be that the text editor you're using strips out double spaces, like the one in which I'm typing this, as Bramblethorn discovered. Or maybe it's such a common problem that it's the first thing Laurel does.

The problem with double spaces is that it interferes with the way people read and absorb information because it breaks up the rhythm that people have become used to. That rhythm is important as it allows a steady flow of information to the brain. That is also why such things as typos, poor punctuation, etc have such an effect; they, too, cause the reader to pause while he or she works out what's going on.

That, of course, is a vast over-simplification. If you want to know more about the science of reading, this Wikipedia article isn't bad.

Good typography and the choice of typeface are also key elements. Lit stories fail on both these counts – for readability they probably rate about 2 out of 10 – which does make me wonder if it's worth making such a fuss about relatively minor punctuation errors.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

It's not that difficult, Chloe. An easy bit of a poem for you to start with.

Ole Mr Blanchflower Wot Allus Do the ‘nnouncements
At the Troshin' Fair Tell ‘em Wot’s On

Fust we hev on an expedition of thatchin’
Wot include layin’ and tyin’ and cross-hatchin’,
Follered at two by a tork on eel catchin’.

Then we hev the W.I. singin’ for yew
Thar own varsion of Jerusalem, wot’s bran new
(Tho’ Mrs Black int har cos she’s orf with the flu).

At three we’ll be a hevin’ the best tastin’ caerke
(Wot, this yar, ‘ll be judged by the Reverend Blake),
Then the Broadshire Battle Grup—arter a short break

Will be a doin’ thar Hastin’s (1066).
Larst we hev the Thrapston Morris Men and thar sticks,
Accompanied on harmonicals by Sid Hicks.
​

Cameron Self - Literary Norfolk

I'll hev you kno', round har we hev our own Professor o' Sociolinguistics at the university so dunt yew be talkin' a load o' ol' squit about our dialects.

So basically; Cashme ousside howbow dah?

 

[JaxRhapsody]

Thanks to all and sundry, not quite the flaming I expected. I am not trying to wind anyone up, just the satisfaction of getting my stuff in.

I am using another story website and getting in there happily without the restrictions in here, but when I do post in here I try to make sure the underage thing is edited correctly, however saying that, I find my latest slipped by my net so rejected it is. Will consider a re-post after playing with it. But not bothered really - any more

Yeah other sites let you write damn near anything...classy debauchery is what this site tries to be. No underage porn, the rape must be "rape," and loving wives must die for repentance.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

It may be that the text editor you're using strips out double spaces, like the one in which I'm typing this, as Bramblethorn discovered. Or maybe it's such a common problem that it's the first thing Laurel does.

The problem with double spaces is that it interferes with the way people read and absorb information because it breaks up the rhythm that people have become used to. That rhythm is important as it allows a steady flow of information to the brain. That is also why such things as typos, poor punctuation, etc have such an effect; they, too, cause the reader to pause while he or she works out what's going on.

That, of course, is a vast over-simplification. If you want to know more about the science of reading, this Wikipedia article isn't bad.

Good typography and the choice of typeface are also key elements. Lit stories fail on both these counts – for readability they probably rate about 2 out of 10 – which does make me wonder if it's worth making such a fuss about relatively minor punctuation errors.

Half finished words used to get to me when I was younger. The word wasn't short enough for the line it was on caus-
ing it to be finished on the next line, like that.

 

[uksnowy]

Good discussion going on here thanks, at least I triggered something.

I used a lot of . to indicate a loonngg pause in dialogue, that's all.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Good discussion going on here thanks, at least I triggered something.

I used a lot of . to indicate a loonngg pause in dialogue, that's all.

All you need to designate a long pause is an ellipsis... like this (setting aside arguments about type-setting standards - computers are computers, printers are printers, and technology changes).

Exaggerating the length of words as you have done above can backfire - I read the above example as "loon", not "long", a different meaning entirely.

 

[Handley_Page]

Half finished words used to get to me when I was younger. The word wasn't short enough for the line it was on caus-
ing it to be finished on the next line, like that.

A good Word Proc will generally insert the hyphens in the right place.

And it is well-known that a Seriffed fount is better for reading. The types such as Century Schoolbook, Bookman (which are slightly wider than most) are the best.
Times Roman (or even just "Times") and Palatino are compressed and not particularly good for reading.

 

[Green_Knight]

A good Word Proc will generally insert the hyphens in the right place...

Hmm, not sure about that. Arguments about hyphenation make most of the discussions on this forum look placid. For a start, there are differences between British and American hyphenation, which stem largely from the etymological and phonetic approaches to syllabification that the two languages take.

One of the golden rules of hyphenation – and perhaps the most important – is that the division should not misdirect the reader as to the pronunciation of the complete word. Perhaps the most famous example of a no-no is 'mac-hine'. However, this does not help where there are differences between the American and British pronunciations of a word.

For those who are interested in this complex subject and who want to know why hyphenation is needed and why good hyphenation is so important, I commend the little book Hyphenation by the late Ronald McIntosh which is now available in HTML form.

By the way, caus-ing is a totally acceptable word division.

 

[sr71plt]

A good Word Proc will generally insert the hyphens in the right place.

Actually, no known computer spellcheck program can handle hyphens. You need to check the dictionary on when/whether to use them.

If you're talking about end-of-line hyphenation of words, that went away with the typewriter. Computers respace the lines. The computer doesn't split words at the end of a line.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Hmm, not sure about that. Arguments about hyphenation make most of the discussions on this forum look placid. For a start, there are differences between British and American hyphenation, which stem largely from the etymological and phonetic approaches to syllabification that the two languages take.

One of the golden rules of hyphenation – and perhaps the most important – is that the division should not misdirect the reader as to the pronunciation of the complete word. Perhaps the most famous example of a no-no is 'mac-hine'. However, this does not help where there are differences between the American and British pronunciations of a word.

For those who are interested in this complex subject and who want to know why hyphenation is needed and why good hyphenation is so important, I commend the little book Hyphenation by the late Ronald McIntosh which is now available in HTML form.

By the way, caus-ing is a totally acceptable word division.

OMG! Someone wrote a book on hyphens? Now I know why I never took any classes in that writing stuff.

 

[sr71plt]

Word division hyphenation ceased to be an issue with the introduction of the computer (unless you're still using a typewriter--which doesn't feed into any word processing system other than a copy machine). Computerized material doesn't split words on the end of a line.

Hyphenation now is only relevant to combined word forms, which is too complex for computer spellcheck to handle.

 

[Green_Knight]

Actually, no known computer spellcheck program can handle hyphens. You need to check the dictionary on when/whether to use them.

If you're talking about end-of-line hyphenation of words, that went away with the typewriter. Computers respace the lines. The computer doesn't split words at the end of a line.

Nonsense. Even dear old Microsoft Word will have a stab at it and all page layout programs have a hyphenation function. Just take a look at any newspaper or decently-produced book and you'll find plenty of examples of hyphenation in use.

If you justify the text and then turn hyphenation off you will get ugly results. The word spacing will vary enormously between lines and that makes the text hard to read. The need for hyphenation depends, of course, on both line length/column width and word length. If you stick to one syllable words no longer than four or five characters with a typical book page width, you probably won't need hyphenation – perhaps that's what you're doing. In general, though, in newspapers, with narrow justified columns, hyphenation becomes vital if large or variable word spaces are to be avoided, as these examples from the Hyphenation book I mentioned earlier show:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070621165213im_/http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/images/gaps.gif

These problems occurred because the words histopathology and ambulancemen were not in the system's hyphenation dictionary but a similar result would occur if hyphenation were not used at all.

The way that hyphenation algorithms work is to calculate the difference between actual word spacing and ideal word spacing in a line of text. If one exceeds the other by more than an acceptable amount, the algorithm will look at hyphenation possibilities. This needs to be done not just for the line in question but for the whole paragraph or page, because there might be words elsewhere in the text that divide in a better way to give the desired result.

Most books, paperback and hardback, do use hyphenation, although the greater width of the book column means that hyphens are needed only occasionally and in some cases can be avoided by adjusting the word spacing in other lines in the paragraph to push words onto an adjacent line. However, even in a book, it is difficult to get a typographically acceptable result without the use of some hyphenation.

The big problem to day is that publishers are cutting their costs by doing away with the people who had the necessary skills to make a difference between a poor result and a good one.

 

[Green_Knight]

OMG! Someone wrote a book on hyphens? Now I know why I never took any classes in that writing stuff.

He not only wrote a book on it (it's quite a small book) but he also developed the best computer hyphenation program in the world.