Halloween Contest Off-Topic Thread

[NicoleZ]

With the voting shenanigans going on, the Halloween Contest is completely meaningless as a contest of literary skills. The voting system employed is not only open to abuse it, invites it, something which renders it a complete joke. And a very bad joke at that, one which leaves a sour taste of vomit behind.

[The first ten posts of this thread were originally part of the Contest Support Thread, but have been split off from it -AH Mod]

 

[oggbashan]

With the voting shenanigans going on, the Halloween Contest is completely meaningless as a contest of literary skills. The voting system employed is not only open to abuse it, invites it, something which renders it a complete joke. And a very bad joke at that, one which leaves a sour taste of vomit behind.

None of these contests are about "literary skills".

They are about popularity.

The sweeps try to reduce the impact of dubious votes.

Whatever you think about the voting system, any story entered into a contest gets more attention than a non-contest story. Some of that attention can be malicious and offensive but that is to be expected anywhere you post on the internet.

 

[lovecraft68]

With the voting shenanigans going on, the Halloween Contest is completely meaningless as a contest of literary skills. The voting system employed is not only open to abuse it, invites it, something which renders it a complete joke. And a very bad joke at that, one which leaves a sour taste of vomit behind.

All true, but as OGg says its about popularity in some cases, other times, when its an author that is new or little known, I think they fly under the radar and the trolls don't go after them. But once they win one? Now they're 'marked'

There's been suggestions on how to do things differently, but nothing that would seem to work and let's face it, the site is not going to put any effort in. They start it, they run the sweeps and then they announce winners and pay out.

To me, its the sweeps themselves that are an issue because a bunch of people have learned how to manipulate them. The new trick is to strive for less votes and earn a lot of one bombs.

It has worked and will until the site eventually decides to notice it and maybe switches up the sweeps a bit

So best thing to do is go for the ride and again, quoting Ogg, you get some extra eyes on your piece.

 

[NicoleZ]

None of these contests are about "literary skills".

They are about popularity.

Very true - and yet completely false as it is perfectly possible for a small group of people to target specific high-scoring stories and dive bomb them, intelligently, down to around 4.00 without doing anything overtly suspicious.

The sweeps try to reduce the impact of dubious votes.

Please, do not blow crystal smoke in my eyes.

Whatever you think about the voting system, any story entered into a contest gets more attention than a non-contest story.

Again, this is not true. The voting system is a shambles and you know it, so please, do not pretend otherwise! It is perfectly possible to devise a voting system that is not only more relevant but also makes dive bombing impossible.

Some of that attention can be malicious and offensive but that is to be expected anywhere you post on the internet.

So that makes it alright, does it? We spend days, weeks or even longer in order to produce something special and we're just supposed to shrug our shoulders? Or should we perhaps retaliate, indiscriminately as it's not possible atm to identify the parties responsible, by gathering all our friends and acquaintances and mercilessly dive bomb every entry to the extent that the "winner" has an average score of 1.68?

You know from personal experience that I will not do something like the above. If a story in its current form is not good enough to merit a four or a five, I either do not vote or contact the author in question directly.

 

[NicoleZ]

So best thing to do is go for the ride and again, quoting Ogg, you get some extra eyes on your piece.

I know this:

This is the final competition I will bother to enter and once it is over I will probably join NOIRTRASH and disable both voting and anonymous comments - if even that.

It is not about winning or even placing. It's about getting a fair evaluation of what I write from people who not only recently advanced beyond the "See Spot run. Run Spot, run!"-stage.

 

[Dream_Operator]

With the voting shenanigans going on, the Halloween Contest is completely meaningless as a contest of literary skills. The voting system employed is not only open to abuse it, invites it, something which renders it a complete joke. And a very bad joke at that, one which leaves a sour taste of vomit behind.

I agree, why not just call it the 2016 Annual Halloween Troll and Minion hate/support contest, because that's all it has become. LOL.

Sad.

 

[oggbashan]

If you honestly feel that you are wasting your time entering the contests, then don't. Those who try to manipulate the ratings are not worth your anger, just your contempt.

One change that has been detrimental is the ability for everyone to see the ratings. In earlier contests it was more difficult to find out which story had the highest rating.

I have been entering the contests, and supporting those others who do, for over a decade. I'm not going to stop entering because each contest entry attracts attention to my other stories as well. I get 1-bombs, and two and three votes as well, sometimes across a range of my stories. Very few bother to bomb all 200+ oggbashan stories. They look for my few Hs and go for them.

But I don't have a huge investment in wanting to win a contest. Yes I have four Ws but three were for essays, not stories.

However flawed the contests are I think they are a good exercise for an author. Writing to a theme is a useful practice.

But if you think so badly of these contests, then don't enter. If you don't? You can't win but you can't lose either.

 

[Dream_Operator]

If you honestly feel that you are wasting your time entering the contests, then don't.

Spot on Ogg, why bother.

Lovecraft admitted in this (or perhaps another) thread that his fans would "target" early contest authors with impunity, regardless of the quality of their stories.

Again, why bother.

 

[NicoleZ]

Those who try to manipulate the ratings are not worth your anger, just your contempt.

Since this is obviously not a new problem, why hold a contest at all when you know beforehand that the results are going to be rigged, the winner decided by a small clique and not an anonymous body of voters? It actually beggars belief that you say this as if it's no more than inconvenience such a shower on your day out for a picnic!

However flawed the contests are I think they are a good exercise for an author. Writing to a theme is a useful practice.

An exercise in what exactly? If a writer wants to improve her or his writing by writing to a different theme, she or he doesn't need a competition in order to so. Don't confuse coincidence with causality!

But if you think so badly of these contests, then don't enter. If you don't? You can't win but you can't lose either.

Well. Since it is the first contest since I joined, I couldn't very well have had an idea as to what it would be like beforehand, now could I? I thought it would be fun and be fought in a convivial spirit, more the fool I. I thought that between writers, there would be a camaraderie of goodwill and helpfulness towards each other. Again, more the fool I.

I see much fun being poked at Scouries for his alleged delusions of grandeur but it appears that his, if indeed it is so, are of the harmless kind. What really beggars belief that this is a problem that has been known for at least a decade to judge by your words, yet nothing is ever done about it.

 

[lovecraft68]

Spot on Ogg, why bother.

Lovecraft admitted in this (or perhaps another) thread that his fans would "target" early contest authors with impunity, regardless of the quality of their stories.

Again, why bother.

You best go find that and quote it here for the class because I don't recall saying it in that manner.

I have said that there are fans of a lot of authors who will bomb other stories both in contests and on the top lists including my stories and I'm sure I have readers that are no different. That's not an original thought, anyone whose been here awhile and pays attention to top lists sees it all the time.

Your post is making it sound as if I sic readers on people.

Which really fucking kills me because we all know who the authors are here that do this. Just go find Redzinger and ask her about the bombs and nasty anon remarks she received in a contest last year and whose story she commented on that earned that.


In fact the Summer Loving first place winner has been bombed relentlessly after the contest because her story would have gained the number one all time spot in the category and its not readers doing it and that spot is held by the same person I'm referring to in the previous category.


And that wasn't readers doing it but the merry little band of authors who have been sabotaging these contests for the last two years and plenty of proof of that has been shown.

And they'll continue to do so exactly because of the "why bother" attitude and its too bad that's the sites attitude as well because they see it and don't want to have to make an effort.

But back to my first sentence, you need to go prove your statement. Or you know, what? Don't bother, let people think what they want.

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.

So back to the regularly scheduled head in the sand programming before this ends up in a 'off theme' thread that looks like I started it. Meantime pay attention on the last night to submit for the contest.

 

[PennLady]

So that makes it alright, does it? We spend days, weeks or even longer in order to produce something special and we're just supposed to shrug our shoulders? Or should we perhaps retaliate, indiscriminately as it's not possible atm to identify the parties responsible, by gathering all our friends and acquaintances and mercilessly dive bomb every entry to the extent that the "winner" has an average score of 1.68?

You know from personal experience that I will not do something like the above. If a story in its current form is not good enough to merit a four or a five, I either do not vote or contact the author in question directly.

If you spend days or weeks on a story that you then post on a free site that requires nothing from readers (or authors), well then, you do and you take your chances. The readers here don't owe the authors (and I'm one of them) anything. It's not ideal, but it's the way it is. (Nor do the authors particularly owe the readers anything, except for perhaps a decently-written, entertaining and complete story.)

We can only control our end of things as authors -- post stories or don't, allow voting or don't, allow comments or don't, delete comments for whatever reason.

It is a shame that the voting can be pretty easily manipulated, and although I think the sweeps are an effort to try to level the field, they can only do so much.

People post in the contest because they want to and some because there's a quicker turnaround between submitting and posting. Plus the contest page lists the stories so there's a separate place that keeps those stories in one place for readers to find.

For me a lot of this does come down to: it's a free site. If you don't like the way it's run, you can post elsewhere.

 

[EverLux]

In fact the Summer Loving first place winner has been bombed relentlessly after the contest because her story would have gained the number one all time spot in the category and its not readers doing it and that spot is held by the same person I'm referring to in the previous category.

I was warned ahead of time that participating in contests would be an infuriating rollercoaster experience. Those same people also warned me about the unfairness of Lit politics' affect on voting. Even still, I wasn't prepared for just how difficult it would be to watch something I poured my heart into get repeatedly and brutally bombed.

And, like LC mentioned, it didn't get any better after winning. I was able to enjoy it and be excited for about an hour before the bombing started again. Even worse were the immediate implied and outright accusations of favoritism (huh?) or a manipulation of the votes by Laurel, which made me question whether or not I really did deserve the win.
(Don't get me wrong, I'm beyond thrilled and grateful, but the aftermath was disheartening.)

All that being said, I will absolutely participate again. I just won't look at the ratings until the very end. (Ha! Yeah right.)

Sure, it blows that the ratings can be so affected by a group of people who have way too much time on their hands and nothing else to do with it. You're clearly not alone in thinking that. But like others said, participate or not. It's your choice.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Me, I'm new to all of this so it's a bit of an eye-opener. Never realized there was all of this manipulation of ratings going on like that in the competitions but hey, no skin of my nose.

Somebody 1* bombing me doesn't make me a better or a worse writer. My Halloween story got a lot of views - way more than I ever expected, it also got me favorited as an author by a lot of readers and it resulted in a jump in views on quite a few of my other stories - and got me a lot of online and offline feedback, which is what I'm after. It'd be nice to win, but honestly, I don't expect to and really, it's not a big thing for me. My main aim is exposure, readers and working on my writing.

As far as I'm concerned, winning for me is actually getting myself published and starting to make money from my writing and I'm a long way from that yet. So I'll just keep entering competitions, work on improving my writing and going with the flow as far as Lit's concerened. It is what it is and as long as I'm clear on whats going on, I'm good. So I'd like to thank you all for spelling out the situation and the pitfalls.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Even worse were the immediate implied and outright accusations of favoritism (huh?) or a manipulation of the votes by Laurel, .....

Oh, so you've had that too. I got those comments on one of my stories coz the ratings were high for the category. I wrote the main troll in as a character in one of my stories (he got beaten up in a biker bar - that was a fun scene to write). Anyhow, I was warned when I first started writing here - went in with my eyes open but I do empathize with you.

On the other hand, writers write, trolls troll. It's what they do and personally, I really don't care about them. They're losers and they know it.

 

[TxRad]

This will probably get this thread locked but here goes.

I've been here since before the sweeps were sweeps. Yes, there were cleanup of the votes but nothing like today. Then scouries came along and the sweeps got deeper and more complicated. The first story of his that the sweeps hit took five or six hundred votes off and his score went from 4.8 something down to almost below the 4.5 mark and other people lost two or three hundred and their scores went up by .3 to .5.

In later contests, he spread the votes around so others were lossing large numbers otherwise he stuck out like a sore thumb. Of course it was all the AH's fault and Laurel playing favorites. Laurel could care less who wins. what does she gain by playing favorites?

Scouries dropped out of the contest and dropped out of Lit except for his fake threads and contest. He posts stories at another site or so I've been told. A point that should be made is that although he hasn't posted a story here in over four years, he is still at number seven on the favorites list. Funny how that works.

Then we had the fans getting into the act. Up voting their favorites and down voting the competition.

Another question is how many of the trolls we have today are scouries 'fan' from the other site. He is the self-proclaimed number one writer on Lit but he has never won any kind of contest on Lit. A lot of incentive to hate the contest here.

Now we have the group. They also have no love for the AH among other things. They also are trying to break into the e-book market. Part of their advertising is that they are all award winning authors here on Lit. Yes, they have won or at least placed in contests here. Want to know their secret? Send me a PM and I'll give you their winning formula and yes it works. With the formula in mind, go back and read the contest winners, first through third for the last eighteen months worth of contests.

And now we have authors who decided that the contest is too rough for them. They don't know what rough is. Try mainstream publishing and watch the rejection slips pile up knee deep.

A little history lesson for the newbies.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

After 9 years I conclude management has no clue how to fix contests or much else.

I conclude, too, other sites solved their contest problems, and the fixes are likely available for a fee.

This state spent billions and decades working on a unified system to integrate all the state agencies, but it never happened.

ObamaCare is a fiasco, too.

Yet we tossed a score or so of scientists together and created nuclear energy in two years or so.

 

[Sammael Bard]

And now we have authors who decided that the contest is too rough for them. They don't know what rough is. Try mainstream publishing and watch the rejection slips pile up knee deep.

Knee deep? That's really nothing.

I had it up to my neck.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

And TEX wrote with a hunk of charcoal by the fire.

 

[Darkniciad]

The current theory is as follows: A cabal of authors ( fewer than 20 ) is engaged in the following practices, which give them an unfair advantage in the contests. Entering at the last minute. Voting and commenting on each other's stories as soon as posted. Maliciously choosing a category with fewer readers than the "proper" category. Adding an off-putting scene a certain distance into the story for the sole purpose of making all but the most hardcore fans back-click.

Let's begin with "Entering at the last minute".

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?p=69412239&highlight=day-1#post69412239

This is the most recent example of me demonstrating that this is complete and utter hogwash. Throughout the entire history of the contests, there is a general parity of early and late entries placing. When asked to narrow the timeframe to the last five years, early entries actually gained a statistically significant advantage over late ones.

And no matter how you slice it, stories entered near the middle of the contest win more often than stories on either end.

There is a full week of voting following the end of the submissions period. Most of the voting on a story happens within the first two days. A week is more than sufficient for a last-minute entry to have the same pattern of voting as a day-1 story.

The secondary element of this complaint is that "Late entries avoid some of the sweeps." The problem with that is that few to no sweeps happen before the end of the submission period. Those lesser sweeps that do occur may very well be related to other causes, such as toplist manipulation, author requested sweeps, etc.

This theory too is complete nonsense.

Now, let's move on to the cabal voting for each other to boost their ratings early. Most of the people making these allegations have in excess of 2000 people listing them as a favorite author. Considering this "cabal" has fewer than 20 members, it takes only 1% of the people who have listed them as a favorite author to exceed the number of members in this "cabal".

So, first and foremost, the "advantage" being decried is myopic. Authors with large fanbases can easily exceed the number of votes and comments alleged to be left by the "cabal"

Why would gaining early votes be advantageous? First, early five votes get you a Red H earlier, which attracts more people to your story. Because of the lag between when the story is live and it appearing on the new story list, it may even show up with a red H. This can be quite good for picking up more readers than you might have otherwise.

Problem with this theory? It's in direct opposition to another portion of this ridiculous nonsense, which says that the authors are purposely attempting to minimize the number of people reading and voting on their story. So, to subscribe to this, you have to believe they're cheating by trying to get people to read them, while simultaneously cheating to keep people from reading them.

Comments are the same thing. A string of positive comments may very well attract more people to your story. How does that jive with saying that the authors are attempting to limit the number of people reading and voting?

It doesn't.

What it does is insure that no matter what the targeted people do, the bases are covered. There's always a "gotcha!"

Meanwhile, on another site where the contests are entirely judged by a large, mixed panel of authors, moderators, and engaged readers, there are people screaming bloody murder that views and votes should be added into the equation because the winners didn't have as many of those as they did.

There is no contest structure that people will accept. There's always a cheater or a site bias, and as soon as it's stated, other people pile on the bandwagon, because they want to believe it.

For the record, scouries hasn't posted a story on the other site since the last one he posted here, back in '12, unless he's doing so under a secret pen name. He's never been a presence on the forum there, and so is even more of a non-entity there than he is here. It's unlikely anyone is striking back at Lit on his behalf from there, as probably few people even remember he existed.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled flavor of the month winner-shaming witch hunt.

 

[TxRad]

Knee deep? That's really nothing.

I had it up to my neck.

I got lucky and got discovered at the knee deep mark.

 

[sr71plt]

I got lucky and got discovered at the knee deep mark.

I worked in publishing and was able to bypass the agent stage. Otherwise I wouldn't have done it. I enjoy the writing; I most certainly don't enjoy the marketing.

 

[Sammael Bard]

I got lucky and got discovered at the knee deep mark.

Lucky for you. I was just starting out back then. Zero contacts. Zero supporters. Even dad was like 'leave it be, son'. The first few rejections really stung though. It sucks out your confidence.

 

[SamScribble]

I worked in publishing and was able to bypass the agent stage. Otherwise I wouldn't have done it. I enjoy the writing; I most certainly don't enjoy the marketing.

When my first book came out, my publisher arranged a little ‘tour’ – six cities, 13 ‘speeches’, and a few book signings. After the first speech, I realised that the only way that I was going to survive was to become ‘someone else’. So for my second presentation I did a sort of stand-up routine. The subject of my book was seriously serious, but my 20 minutes on the platform was anything but. It worked. We sold heaps of books. But I also realised that most people probably wouldn’t get around to reading them. They had enjoyed their glass of wine. They seemed to have enjoyed my rambling gags. (At least they laughed and applauded enthusiastically.) And now they could go home.

Hey, at least I got a second book out of it.

 

[NicoleZ]

Well,

It is rather interesting to learn from others what has gone on here before I joined and I wish I had known in advance. As I was curious and had read about one-bombing, I have kept an eye on the stats and this is what I observed:

* After two votes had been cast (~800 views), the score was 4.50 which means that it had been given a 4 and a 5. There was also one heart.

* After five votes (1610 views), the score had dropped to 3.80 and as there was now two hearts, this means that scores of 5, 4, 1 had been awarded (work the maths if you do not believe me). This is where I began to wonder what in bogs name was going and from then I've kept a close look.

* After six votes votes (1813 views), the score was 3.67 and the person responsible for the 3 had written a comment: "Ok. Not a bad story I skipped about half of it, for me it was too long but still not too bad." So, as a writer I am to be punished because some ignoramus thinks it's too long and hasn't even bothered to read it?

* After eight votes (1918 views), the score was a pathetic 3.25 as one more 1 and a 3 had been entered.

* After this, the story was doomed. It does not matter that as of 24 hours ago (4163 views) a further six people had favourited it and it's received another 5 x 5 plus one 4. Over the last 24+ hours, no more than a further 270 people have bothered to read it.

Job done! Congratulations! Your combination of 1-bombs and 3-boms which a sweep will never notice have achieved their purpose. Well done...

As for the obvious retort about me not considering the possibility that it simply isn't good enough, well. First, more than one voter on my first story (which on two separate occasions was 1-bombed to get it off the hot-list) have written "This story deserves 10 stars". Second, as my RL efforts (completely different genre) have been reported on the front pages of major online newspapers and internet news outlets, not only in the UK, but also countries such as Japan, Indonesia and Sweden amongst others, I have a fair idea about the quality or lack thereof in my work.

As a consequence, I have withdrawn the story by setting the "Public vote" to "No" and removed the "Public Comment Board option". Because of the genuine votes and people who have favourited it, I have for the time being not withdrawn it completely.

 

[Bramblethorn]

* After two votes had been cast (~800 views), the score was 4.50 which means that it had been given a 4 and a 5. There was also one heart.

* After five votes (1610 views), the score had dropped to 3.80 and as there was now two hearts, this means that scores of 5, 4, 1 had been awarded (work the maths if you do not believe me).

...or possibly 5-3-2, but I agree that 5-4-1 is more likely.

After six votes votes (1813 views), the score was 3.67 and the person responsible for the 3 had written a comment: "Ok. Not a bad story I skipped about half of it, for me it was too long but still not too bad." So, as a writer I am to be punished because some ignoramus thinks it's too long and hasn't even bothered to read it?

Pretty much, yes. It's not much fun, but that's how popular voting works. Readers have all sorts of preferences and they vote according to those preferences, whether that's "short stories with lots of sex" or "I hate BDSM" or "I want a happy ending" or "hairy armpits are the only thing that get me aroused". Most any creative choice you make is going to annoy some of those readers. Anybody putting their story up for public voting needs to make their peace with that, because the readers aren't going to change their tastes for our sake.

But for what it's worth, length generally helps your ratings overall, because most of the readers with short attention spans won't bother to skip to the end and downvote; they'll just click out. If you don't believe me, have a look at the stories on the all-time Hall of Fame here.

If you want to get a higher class of response there are other options. Folk like Lien Geller and Soulful Bard have review threads up in Story Feedback and they always give thoughtful feedback on people's stories, even if it doesn't come with a cash prize.

* After this, the story was doomed. It does not matter that as of 24 hours ago (4163 views) a further six people had favourited it and it's received another 5 x 5 plus one 4. Over the last 24+ hours, no more than a further 270 people have bothered to read it.

It's pretty common for views to taper off a lot after the first few days, no matter what the rating. For example, one of mine in Lesbian had these view counts in its first four days:

Day 1: 14289 (+14289)
Day 2: 17347 (+3058)
Day 3: 18983 (+1636)
Day 4: 19127 (+144)

It took more than two months for that story to reach double the view count it got on Day 1.

When your story's on the first couple of pages of the New Stories portal, it's very easy for readers to find. After a couple of days it will get buried in the depths of New Stories (plus many of those who frequent NS will have already read it), and that makes it much harder to draw new readers.

Job done! Congratulations! Your combination of 1-bombs and 3-boms which a sweep will never notice have achieved their purpose.

I wouldn't assume that. I've seen sweeps remove quite a few 3s and 4s on my stories (and sometimes 5s) - but if you've already taken it out of the running, it's a bit late now.