Biased and unbiased feedback

[Daniel_Matthews]

Sometimes, I give feedback on stories. I send anonymous comments explaining what I liked and what I didn't. Recently, I criticised one author, saying his story was hackneyed and had nothing original to it, the character was like a piece of cardboard with no feelings with etc. The author was quick to reply, saying I was being a "biased dick".

I was like, "whoa, I just showed the mirror, man!". Pretty sure nothing was " biased ". I hate a lot of stuffs being written in a smut, but I say it beforehand if I have a pet peeve for something.

So anyway, my q is this:

How do you say if a given feedback is biased or unbiased? How do you know when it's helpful or not? Do you have any, so to speak, pointers?

The question is for both the author and feedback-giver.

 

[sr71plt]

All comment, written and spoken, is biased to some extent. You can't help responding from your history of experience.

 

[legerdemer]

As a feedback giver: regarding content and style, I certainly am biased - by my experience and my tastes. In other things - some of the mechanics of writing (grammar, spelling) - I can be much more objective.

As an author, I recognize that what I said above is true of anyone leaving me a comment. Sometimes criticisms resonate and feel right, when I look back on the story - I can see the commenter has made a valid point, and that I might improve the story if I consider the suggestion offered it. If I'm lucky, I'll get multiple comments on a story and they will reinforce each other - but I'm rarely that lucky.

 

[RejectReality]

If that's a reasonable facsimile of the email you sent, and not just witty shorthand for the purposes of your post, then I'm not surprised at the response.

It's not exactly constructive criticism when presented that way.

I'd be willing to wager that a large percentage of writers on Lit aren't looking for any criticism, but nobody's looking for the textual equivalent of hurling rotten tomatoes. The thicker-skinned may take note of it, and others will ignore it, but you're going to get a lot of the same hurled right back at you from the rest.

 

[robertreams]

Sometimes, I give feedback on stories. I send anonymous comments explaining what I liked and what I didn't. Recently, I criticised one author, saying his story was hackneyed and had nothing original to it, the character was like a piece of cardboard with no feelings with etc. The author was quick to reply, saying I was being a "biased dick".

I was like, "whoa, I just showed the mirror, man!". Pretty sure nothing was " biased ". I hate a lot of stuffs being written in a smut, but I say it beforehand if I have a pet peeve for something.

So anyway, my q is this:

How do you say if a given feedback is biased or unbiased? How do you know when it's helpful or not? Do you have any, so to speak, pointers?

The question is for both the author and feedback-giver.

Wow if i wrote that in forum, all sorts of people would be jumping all over my case for being a cruel grammar nazi, trying to destroy the writer's creativity and cramp his style. LOL I just had a writer apologize to me in a private comment, that she had "acted childish" over one of my criticisms, and my objections were correct. That critique was over a year ago. I guess my criticism is not as biased this year as it was last year. LOL.

Literary criticisms are of course biased, but not nearily as biased as a WRITER'S RESPONSE to criticism can be.

 

[le_kitty]

Yes, it's quite difficult to be partial and objective. Especially with the arts, it's fundamentally subjective. Even with logic, every time we argue or debate, behind our logic, we're driving, to some extent, with emotion. Also, good writers want to affect readers. To take them on a journey and have them feel. Obviously we want to hear positive things, even people who claim to want to be chewed out. How well someone can react, deal and assimilate constructive criticism (especially if negatively flavoured) is also highly dependent on what they're like as a person. It makes sense to judge a piece of work purely on merit, but it's easy to forget that a huge amount of effort might've gone into it.

I have had good mentors, bad mentors and people with their own issues, as mentors. It will all come through. I'm very hesitant about the whole thing now and have quit on a mentor after the first lesson because they left a bad feeling in me, regarding my work. But with any kind of working relationship that isn't necessarily 100% equal, like a teacher student one, it can be easy to tread on their confidence in an attempt to push them to be better.

The truth matters. Good mentoring matters. But people generally remember how you make them feel. Sure, it seems against principle, but people are animals. It's easy to forget when critiquing or teaching, but nobody wants to be shit. The key is to combine the truth with good delivery of how to improve. Inspiring them also helps.

Having said that, there are certainly people who can take having metaphoric bricks thrown at them. Kudos if you can!

 

[NaokoSmith]

When we give feedback to students, the advice is to give some positive feedback at the start and finish, and sandwich our more critical remarks between some encouragement.

I think the best feedback I've seen is from Darcy Bussell in the Strictly Come Dancing competition. She says something critically constructive that tells the dancers how to improve, and she does it in a way that comes across to the dancer as about their dancing as if that's a skill they are building, rather than about some intrinsic essence of their person.

 

[oggbashan]

One of the real difficulties about leaving feedback, or even in writing posts, is that all the reader sees is the bare text. Smilies don't carry the same weight as tone and expression do in face to face speech.

Any criticism of an author's story, no matter how well deserved, is likely to hurt the author's pride in their creation. Your words are probably interpreted in the harshest possible way - unless the author is sufficiently well balanced to recognise genuinely constructive criticism, and to discount simple abuse.

I make mistakes in my stories. I seem to make at least one in each story that I never notice until it is posted. Feedback that identifies that mistake is helpful. It still hurts that I made the error. Pointing it out to me? I can accept that.

Some of my stories are Femdom. Some readers feel threatened by that and respond with degrees of virulent abuse. That's their problem, not mine. Criticism that transfers from the story to attacking me personally? I just write the stories. I don't live them, nor any of my stories. I wouldn't enjoy many of the scenarios in my stories. I'm an author, not a woman's slave or sex-toy. I see writing Femdom as a slight counterbalance to some of the Lit stories abusing and degrading women.

Am I a "sufficiently well balanced" author to accept constructive criticism? I try to be but it doesn't always work. The more accurate and justified the criticism, particularly from someone I know is sympathetic to my work, the more hurt I feel at first. I have to get beyond that before I can deal rationally with the comments.

I have explained before why I don't tend to leave comments on stories - in my English Literature studies I was taught comprehensive deconstruction of literature, and once I have done that I lose any enjoyment I might have had in a list of literary device names, grammatical details and plot analysis. I was taught to examine the trees, the branches, the twigs, the leaves, and never the forest.

I welcome comments (and votes) on my stories whether the comments are justified or not. I appreciate the effort that writing a comment takes. I can be hurt by them, but I will read every word to try to understand exactly what the commentor intended me to notice, even if it says "This story is crap.".

 

[YDB95]

There are different types of bias. For example, there are some categories of Lit stories that I know aren't going to appeal to me at all no matter how well-written they are. If I do read them and don't like them, then it's fair to say I was biased. If I am asked for an opinion in such a case, I do try to stick to focusing on what I did and didn't like about the author's writing style and ability, regardless of my opinion of the subject matter. But of course I'm going to be more lenient if I do like the story being told than if I don't.

I do see a major difference between a negative comment that explains why the reader didn't like the story and what might have been done to improve it, and one that just hurls insults at the author. But that's not necessarily the result of bias, although it could be.

 

[lovecraft68]

All comment, written and spoken, is biased to some extent. You can't help responding from your history of experience.

I agree with this all feedback is based on personal taste which is based on experience both good and bad and a variety of other things including even upbringing to a point.

I think erotica is more heavily biased because everyone has their kink, but also their squicks or the things that make them roll their eyes and when one of the latter shows up, its a knee jerk reaction to be negative about it just as it is to be positive.

I think the same can en said of authors, get a great comment and you're like "That's right, they get it!" Get a real crappy one and its "Oh, you don't know what you're talking about you idiot."

But...most authors refrain from the knee jerk response. I think the worst thing an author can do-my bias I guess-is to respond to a negative comment in an insulting manner. Shows thin skinned immaturity as I'm sure they never blast anyone for telling them how awesome they are.

Except for LW it is very rare to see a story get a lot more negative than positive so for every "I hated this" there's far more "Good job" and that should be what we focus on here.

Also worth mentioning that had the op linked the story he commented on wee would see a lot of good comments. OP hated for whatever his reasons were which is his right, but his trash is a lot of people's treasure its how it works around here.

 

[lovecraft68]

Sometimes, I give feedback on stories. I send anonymous comments explaining what I liked and what I didn't. Recently, I criticised one author, saying his story was hackneyed and had nothing original to it, the character was like a piece of cardboard with no feelings with etc. The author was quick to reply, saying I was being a "biased dick".

I was like, "whoa, I just showed the mirror, man!". Pretty sure nothing was " biased ". I hate a lot of stuffs being written in a smut, but I say it beforehand if I have a pet peeve for something.

So anyway, my q is this:

How do you say if a given feedback is biased or unbiased? How do you know when it's helpful or not? Do you have any, so to speak, pointers?

The question is for both the author and feedback-giver.

I'll preface this by saying everyone has the right to their opinion and to express it as they wish. But you are looking for responses from authors and readers and this is my take as both
The fact you post your negative opinion as anonymous takes away credit in the eyes of authors and other readers who use their handle. anytime anon spouts off the other readers reactions are "Don't even have the balls to say that under a name?" and people deem you a troll.

I personally wouldn't give your remark the time of day. And like many would roll my eyes "Of course he's anon, wouldn't want me to go find his stories, oh, wait, he's most likely never written any."

So of you want to have your opinion even remotely considered by the author or his other readers grow a pair and post under your name.

That advice may be biased in and of itself based on my personal opinion and the fact I comment under my name even if its not glowing. I'm willing to put my name with my opinion. Its still only my opinion, but at least I'm showing the back bone to lay myself bare to that person 'coming after' my work here.

Throwing stones on the net in general is easy, doing it under anon is like a six year old thumbing his nose and going "Nyah, nyah"

Then you come here to whine about the person taking another pot shot at them, but not naming them again to not give them a chance to defend themselves to you.

So honestly speaking this is as my nephew is fond of saying a "Dick move, bro."

But that's why the site gives us the option to deal with anymouse or not as we choose. I choose to both because a lot of anon is good, but also the meek mouses are always good for a laugh from me and like minded authors.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGd1eiLKY_8

An excellent vid about feedback. Notice how the experts give it to them straight.

Pink Floyd was never as good after Syd Barrett died.

With Syd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQH8LcAsEvA

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I'm extremely blessed no one much liked me from the start of life, beginning with my mom trying to murder me at 3. Other rejections are easy. But most don't like me, and my feelings are miles from harm by anyone.

Criticism is a two edged blade. Reviewees assess reviewers at the same time, and shitheads reveal themselves.

There are two standards with writing: Errors of spelling, punctuation, format, and grammar, AND Utility Errors, what works and doesn't. Most criticism concerns what doesn't work for the reader.

 

[Sammael Bard]

It's always going to be partial because in the end, it is someone's opinion. Opinions have no predefined scales. You just have to find the best one and roll with it.

In my experience, the best feedback are the ones that tell you how to improve, rather than only telling you what's right or wrong with the story.

If you're going to tell an author how much he sucked, there are more chances of him going defensive and close his ears to everything else you have to offer. If you're only going to all praises, be prepared for a hyper-inflated ego. Either scenario defeats the very purpose of feedback.

My purpose of giving feedback is to make the author listen to what I have to say. When someone says they found my feedback useful, I feel that it was time well invested.

I think you should also try Naoko's sandwich approach (combining positive with negative). That's a great method to get your point through.

 

[NotWise]

The best reader feedback I got came from carolinadreamer two or three times. Detailed, constructive and to the point.

I don't know what to think about the "more, more, more" sort of comments. Maybe they're upset that the story was short so they one-bomb, or maybe they liked the story and want to keep reading.

 

[SecondCircle]

I think feedback is going to be inevitably biased to some degree.

There are misconceptions on both sides of feedback though. Readers no doubt often express distaste for negative constructive feedback, while adoring all the glowing praise. This I think we are familiar with. What with all the "you can't please em all" or "grow thicker skin" advice that is constantly seen. We understand the readers side.

But seldom do we think about our own feedback and its implications. In the past people have told me I do good "reviews" or "critiques". I actually do neither. When I read and leave feedback, I'm not providing some professional opinion on the body of work... I'm just being a reader and letting you know what I think. I'm no editor or grammarian. I'm not going to tell you about all of your mechanical errors unless they were so incredibly distracting that it took away from my reading experience. Nor am I an expert in prose or characterization or anything like that. I won't tell you anything more than "I thought this character was really great" or "this character seemed flat or two dimensional."

In other words, I've cooked steaks before. I'm no chef. I can still tell you if the steak you cooked me was good or bad according to my tastes. I might tell you it's tough or bland. I might say it's rich and savory. What I won't do? Is tell you that your soy sauce was a mistake, that you shouldn't have used it. That you can only cook a steak one way, MY way. THAT is when feedback goes wrong.

Not saying the OP was imposing his/her will upon the reader (it wasn't, it was just an opinion on how the steak tasted), but sometimes we must examine our feedback a bit. I may not care for how a particular scene played out or what style was used. But notice earlier I said "according to MY tastes". Something that I don't like may be something that someone else DOES like.

Really what it boils down to is... there's things that can be flat wrong like punctuation or run on sentences or plotholes. But very many other things are subjective. BIAS in other words. Which is why if someone shows me a story and asks "what do you think?" Then I do that. And only that. I can only give my opinion. It might sound like, "Hmm. The pacing is really slow for me here. I like their interactions, the dialogue sounds real and flows. I didn't care too much for that twist, but it wasn't predictable. There were some places were the sentences ran together and I couldn't tell what you were trying to say, but it wasn't all that distracting in the big picture. The sex was really hot I thought. Pretty good overall, just not my cup of tea."

The recurring theme there being "in my opinion". As in, I'm not telling the writer that they are necessarily wrong in how the story was written. I'm just making my own observations. I may have thought the "sex was hot" while the next man may think it was repulsive. Barring just general technicalities, I won't ever tell a writer "this was wrong because I didn't like it".

Lotta times people cast feedback (their opinion) like it's the gospel. We have to remember as readers some things are just a matter of opinion. As writers when we receive feedback, we must remember this too. One reader might tell you your story is clunky and unreadable. Another may think it's fine. I don't think thicker skin should be prescribed, I just think a little understanding goes a long way. Even if a reader tells you your writing is filth or shit or clunky or whatever, just note that each reader has his or her own preference. I've never understood why a writer gets supremely butthurt at someone just giving an opinion. Even if it's the worst opinion ever. So what? Take it or leave it and move on to writing the next story. Change what you will if you see fit. If not, don't.

 

[oggbashan]

Any feedback at all is much more than the average reader will do after reading a story.

Even the abusive feedback shows that the story has affected the reader so much that they want to take the effort to leave a comment.

Value your feedback - all of it. You have produced a reaction from the reader.

 

[sr71plt]

Might be time to point out again that Literotica isn't a critique site; it's a free-use reading site with a limited threshold of submission acceptance. You can assume that authors post stories here to receive constructive (or destructive) critique, if you like, but I think you're wrong to do so and deserve a "take a hike" response unless the author has explicitly requested critique--either explicitly on the story itself, by posting to the Story Feedback forum, or for asking in direct PMs for comment. And, no, I don't think that leaving comments on constitutes direct request for critique.

I think most are posting stories here as a form of release and seeking approval. And the ones I read, I read in that vein--unless they've asked for critique. If I comment at all it's to share their sense of enjoyment in having written it.

There's no way to vet here that someone giving a critique has any better understanding of how/what to write than the author of the story has, so unless they've established a good reputation for giving critiques here and the author has asked them for development help, I say you have no kick for not being received well for providing unrequested criticism.

 

[Bramblethorn]

When we give feedback to students, the advice is to give some positive feedback at the start and finish, and sandwich our more critical remarks between some encouragement.

We were taught to do that at my work... and then a couple of years later, taught not to do it. the argument against was that if you train people to expect a "shit sandwich", then any time you say something nice they'll just be waiting for the other shoe to drop. *shrug*

Some of the more helpful advice was to be prompt and specific with feedback, and to focus on the behaviour not the person ("when you're late it makes it hard for us to do our jobs" not "you're lazy").

 

[SecondCircle]

We were taught to do that at my work... and then a couple of years later, taught not to do it. the argument against was that if you train people to expect a "shit sandwich", then any time you say something nice they'll just be waiting for the other shoe to drop. *shrug*

Some of the more helpful advice was to be prompt and specific with feedback, and to focus on the behaviour not the person ("when you're late it makes it hard for us to do our jobs" not "you're lazy").

I agree.

I think a good rule of thumb is to be respectful. You don't have to sugar coat anything. You shouldn't have to. Tell your opinion as directly as possible. But neither do we need to be unnecessarily callous. If the story offended you or wasn't to your liking, move along. There's a good chance you'll find one you like. If you feel something just has to be said, then do so. But we always have a choice in whether we are unnecessarily rude or not. A comment such as this literally has to be typed out for example.

 

[SecondCircle]

Might be time to point out again that Literotica isn't a critique site; it's a free-use reading site with a limited threshold of submission acceptance. You can assume that authors post stories here to receive constructive (or destructive) critique, if you like, but I think you're wrong to do so and deserve a "take a hike" response unless the author has explicitly requested critique--either explicitly on the story itself, by posting to the Story Feedback forum, or for asking in direct PMs for comment. And, no, I don't think that leaving comments on constitutes direct request for critique.

I think most are posting stories here as a form of release and seeking approval. And the ones I read, I read in that vein--unless they've asked for critique. If I comment at all it's to share their sense of enjoyment in having written it.

There's no way to vet here that someone giving a critique has any better understanding of how/what to write than the author of the story has, so unless they've established a good reputation for giving critiques here and the author has asked them for development help, I say you have no kick for not being received well for providing unrequested criticism.

This is true. It isn't a critique site or a review site or even a "receive cool feedback" site.

But it also does not prohibit these things either. It's relatable to YouTube in a sense. No one goes to YouTube specifically to comment or subscribe or like a video. Usually it's just for viewing purposes. Entertainment. Like Lit. Lit is for readers. It's a reading site. But that doesn't mean that some readers aren't going to tell you if they did or didn't like the story and for what reasons. If advice or observations are given, it's not always called for, but it also isn't a tremendous deal for the author either. They are free to just take it or leave it or ignore it altogether.

But I think like you said that's a two way street. If an author didn't really ask for feedback or discussion or critique, the person giving the comment really shouldn't realistically expect anyone to just welcome any feedback with open arms. Still, there's much to be said for decency.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

it's easy.

I have a story about witches. The feedback I get that goes on about how they hate wiccans and it should be in mind control is biased. It's a knee jerk reaction from someone who hates my subject matter, so its useless.

Someone else who maybe also hates the story, but can take it on its own terms and explain why, if they want to, is unbiased.

Anyone can table their own personal tastes and discuss the writing. That to me is unbiased. It's of limited value when it comes to erotica, but it can certainly be useful.

The feedback I get from readers who know the genre of D/d very well and are obviously "biased" towards the content from the beginning are a different kind of reader altogether. I KNOW they'll be reading for different things than someone who says, "Incest is not my thing, but here's what I think."

Different readers bring different perspectives.

Sometimes, I give feedback on stories. I send anonymous comments explaining what I liked and what I didn't. Recently, I criticised one author, saying his story was hackneyed and had nothing original to it, the character was like a piece of cardboard with no feelings with etc. The author was quick to reply, saying I was being a "biased dick".

I was like, "whoa, I just showed the mirror, man!". Pretty sure nothing was " biased ". I hate a lot of stuffs being written in a smut, but I say it beforehand if I have a pet peeve for something.

So anyway, my q is this:

How do you say if a given feedback is biased or unbiased? How do you know when it's helpful or not? Do you have any, so to speak, pointers?

The question is for both the author and feedback-giver.

 

[SecondCircle]

it's easy.

I have a story about witches. The feedback I get that goes on about how they hate wiccans and it should be in mind control is biased. It's a knee jerk reaction from someone who hates my subject matter, so its useless.

Someone else who maybe also hates the story, but can take it on its own terms and explain why, if they want to, is unbiased.

Anyone can table their own personal tastes and discuss the writing. That to me is unbiased. It's of limited value when it comes to erotica, but it can certainly be useful.

The feedback I get from readers who know the genre of D/d very well and are obviously "biased" towards the content from the beginning are a different kind of reader altogether. I KNOW they'll be reading for different things than someone who says, "Incest is not my thing, but here's what I think."

Different readers bring different perspectives.

Quite.

I think the former type of feedback is easily understood though, as you've shown. Easily taken in stride. Those are the type comments and feedback that we can "read between the lines" and observe where that bias is coming from. But when you whittle it on down, aren't they saying the same thing as the latter? "Not my cup of tea" as it were? It's easy to get offended by someone's projection in this sense, but why let that happen? Why not place such emotions aside and discern simply that if FrankAndBeans420 has a problem with Wicca, that that is THEIR issue? Why must we grow offended at the easily offended?

 

[NotWise]

When we give feedback to students, the advice is to give some positive feedback at the start and finish, and sandwich our more critical remarks between some encouragement.

The peer review work that we do is probably similar.

We usually start with an over all summary of our result. We try to emphasize the positive in the opening section. It doesn't always work out that way but even if the review is negative then the problems are broached rather carefully.

The middle section of the review covers our comments on content and interpretation. I have in some cases offered completely different interpretations of the data in the report -- something that probably shouldn't happen while reviewing fiction. Comments on mechanics of organization and writing are usually placed in an appendix, which is often longer than all of the rest of the review combined.

We try to interleave negative and positive observations, but there is limited value for the positive comments unless we can juxtapose the positive and the negative to show better where we think the report should have gone. As a result, the middle section is often negative.

The last section is a forward-looking version of the opening section. It's a 'pat on the back' that assumes that they actually can fix the problems. Sometimes the fix requires additional funding. At the minimum we like to point them in the right direction and say something like "You're on the right track. There are some details that need work."

 

[Daniel_Matthews]

Thanks for the reply, y'all.

I know it's a fishbowl, and calling the comments a "feedback" is overrated, but that doesn't mean you hang up your boots and say "Meh, why does it matter?".

SecondCircle nailed it right. I'll keep in mind which author wouldn't be a waste of time right next time I s start gibbering feedback.

Thanks again to all who replied. Much appreciated.