British/American punctuation - apology to Pilot

[NaokoSmith]

A while back I was in a discussion when sr71plt made reference to differences between British and American punctuation. I indignantly said there were no differences, and as I'm British and he is American probably got my way in the argument.

I realised the other day while reading another thread on punctuation that some Brits do use a different way of punctuating, although most (like me) use the American style of e.g. putting commas and full stops inside not outside speech marks.

Sorry, Pilot, I was wrong.

 

[karaline]

I only just realised this recently too!

 

[oggbashan]

We Brits do not have a Chicago Manual of Style.

We have recommended usage, but not prescriptive usage. That makes it more difficult for British authors. Each publisher has their own preferences for punctuation.

Here is a relevant Kipling quote:

Here's my wisdom for your use, as I learned it when the moose
And the reindeer roamed where Paris roars to-night:—
"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
"And—every—single—one—of—them—is—right!"

 

[sr71plt]

The limited number of mainstream British publishers I freelance edited for basically used the Chicago Manual of Style, with Oxford and a whole bunch of house styles as overrides where there was conflicting (or missing) guidance. I never figured out the convoluted British system of where to put the punctuation in relation to quotes. I'm doing a British-style book now and the publisher (Australian) himself became so frustrated on what to use where that he's instructed me to use American style on punctuation with quote marks.

I don't wonder why Laurel would question correct British usage at Lit.--it looks arbitrary and haphazard and no one seems able to point to a clear British guide on the practice.

 

[oggbashan]

...

I don't wonder why Laurel would question correct British usage at Lit.--it looks arbitrary and haphazard and no one seems able to point to a clear British guide on the practice.

That's because there isn't one except the Fowler brothers' The King's English:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King's_English

There are many British books on grammar and punctuation but none have the status or authority of the Chicago Manual for US English.

 

[sr71plt]

I've just checked the Chicago Manual of Style, and there apparently is a British authority (according to CMS)--The Oxford Style Manual (http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Style-...92719&sr=1-1&keywords=the+oxford+style+manual).

Fowler's has changed editors and recent editions are panned by other authorities (with the recommendation to go looking for the 1996 or earlier edition).

There is definitely a difference between styles on whether/when to use single as opposed to double quotes, which is explained in CMS 6.9 (which also tries to explain punctuation with quotes that just shows how convoluted the British system is).

The bottom line is that I think you can use correct British style here and still have your story rejected for misuse of punctuation.

 

[oggbashan]

The Oxford Style Manual tries to be definitive, but it isn't accepted by all British publishers.

Nothing is, because of regional variations within the UK and in other countries that use British English.

For Literotica, the CMS is the standard, but we Brits are less likely to use it.

 

[Nathan_Brazil]

A while back I was in a discussion when sr71plt made reference to differences between British and American punctuation. I indignantly said there were no differences, and as I'm British and he is American probably got my way in the argument.

I realised the other day while reading another thread on punctuation that some Brits do use a different way of punctuating, although most (like me) use the American style of e.g. putting commas and full stops inside not outside speech marks.

Sorry, Pilot, I was wrong.

Hell just froze over...

Intellectual honesty has broken out at Literotica!

 

[Handley_Page]

Why is British English so . . ‘lacking’ in style ?

[A personal observation.]

There are two ways of looking at this. America, being a relatively ‘new’ nation and formed of persons from all over the known world, has a language, called English.
The snag is that the English spoken by a German, for example, is not going to be quite the same as that spoken by an Italian or Frenchman. So it is necessary to formulate a few ‘Rules’ so that there is an agreed standard of English from sea to shining sea. And this resulted in, amongst others, in the Chicago Manual.

Well, we in England have (until fairly recently) not had that requirement, because [a], we are a physically small nation, and , we have not had a massive influx of foreigners since 1066, and the matter has more-or-less sorted itself out. Naturally, the language got a kick up the backside when Caxton started printing books. Had Caxton been from the North, our language would have been very different in construction.

What’s made life somewhat difficult is the influx of American Software. At one time, a Word Proc did not feature Pound sign [£] and the dictionaries did not know how to spell in English [American – yes: English – no]. Some American idioms got into the English thereby.

Had Fowler and the OSM been published and used more widely and perhaps a bit earlier we might have had an easier ride of it (I blame WW2).

PS. I have not included the drives by the Publishing trade; on purpose.

 

[sr71plt]

Not sure about some of that. The dictionary and typewriter I took to college with me in the dark ages and that I still have don't do what you say American systems do. The 1963 edition of Merriam-Websters includes British spellings and idioms (marked as such) and the the Smith-Corona manual typewriter I took to college has a pound sign key. Fifty years ago is a pretty long time (and predates "software" by several decades).

 

[oggbashan]

Not sure about some of that. The dictionary and typewriter I took to college with me in the dark ages and that I still have don't do what you say American systems do. The 1963 edition of Merriam-Websters includes British spellings and idioms (marked as such) and the the Smith-Corona manual typewriter I took to college has a pound sign key. Fifty years ago is a pretty long time (and predates "software" by several decades).

My original 1970s Hewlett Packard keyboard didn't have a pound sign. I had to use an ALT key with a number to get the ASCII code. I used, and use, ALT keys followed by numerals for French accents. ALT 130 gives me é for example.

In the 1980s I used to have an ancient French language laptop, which had a French AZERTY keyboard. It had dBase; WordStar and SuperCalc in French versions.

I still have a French AZERTY keyboard but I don't write as much French as I used to, so it is sitting in a cupboard. It is a nuisance to set Windows and Word to recognise an AZERTY keyboard. It was much easier with DOS.

 

[NaokoSmith]

Hell just froze over...

Intellectual honesty has broken out at Literotica!

Actually, the Japanese character for Naoko is 'honesty'.

You will always get straight talk from me.

(Proviso: Unless you are a cute butch in my local gay bar )

 

[ishtat]

I have a number of eighteenth century books printed in UK (about half in Edinburgh Scotland ) where the use of quotation marks is generally closer to modern American usage than modern British, particularly the use of double marks. Some Brits like to suggest that the wicked Americans have changed things when sometimes the conventions of the American printers have changed less than their UK counterparts.

About 25 years ago I spent a lot of time on business in India. The sub-editing then of the Indian English Language newspapers was superb, and the style generally would have been almost exactly the same as the 'Times' of London in about 1880 - 1890.

 

[Athalia]

I went to American schools until my teens, when my family moved to London, England. I had a hard time adjusting to the fact that "Mister" is abbreviated Mr in England and Mr. in the States. Same for "Dr" and "Dr." and a few others. It was explained (with a trace of exasperation in my instructor's voice) that one doesn't use the period if the abbreviation was with letters not at the ends, or something. It took a bit of adjusting to.