What is Capitalism?

[Aella_]

No one put a gun to your head....you can fuck off whenever you want.
I don't role play....I'm crazy enough thank you.

Quickest answer I ever got…
Need to prove anything?

 

[Ishmael]

You're funny. Did I said we doesn't? And by the way, I never called about duty. Other Americans on this board did. If you really cared about morals, you'd see how denying so many Syrians is a really weak and pathetic decision for a country with such a history of immigrants.

Tackling just this one point. Both non-citizens and the 'open borders' crowd both want to harp on this issue.

Let's start with the fact that our precious waves of immigrants were legal. Their first act crossing the border was not an illegal act. A point that distinguishes them from the current wave of illegals. The difference between an invited guest and a burglar.

The next point is those precious waves of invited immigrants entered a nation that did NOT have extensive, interlocking, duplication, and borderline insane social safety nets. Safety nets envisioned to lend citizens a temporary helping hand, not provide a way of life for citizen and illegal alike.

As far as the Syrians go, you're welcome to them. They are going to bring your government down and if you allow enough of them in your very way of life.

The New German Plague.

Ishmael

 

[BotanyBoy]

Quickest answer I ever got…
Need to prove anything?

No, I'm just in the thread.....

 

[Sean Renaud]

I didn't argue it wasn't socialism. Though I guess I could since they did not and are not arbitrarily deciding. It's first come, only served because there's only so much space. That's how it is with cable and how it is with cell phones, until someone invents a way to make energy transmit in a new way (something I'm willing to bet on being impossible) or discovers some new way of utilizing it (possible, plausible even) it remains a finite resource which means one person could feesibly control all of it. Unlike labor where women are making more labor in their tummies all the time.

Here's the thing, plagiarism is really only theft because we collectively agree. And not in the same way as general theft. Even most animals can agree that stealing food from my mouth is fundamentally wrong. The concept that I OWN a song and nobody else can sing it because it's mine is a fairly new concept over all and one that lets face it people only agree with when they are on the money end. Napster wasn't THAT long ago and lets face it musicians are still getting hosed by youtube and filesharing. (They still make a lot of money and most of us agree they can cry a river but nobody is turning in their friends for downloading the new Taylor Swift Album.) I do agree with Trademark and Copyright laws, I'm just stating that in a PURE competition the fact that you came up with the idea is irrelevant if I can do it better.

You stated poverty is going to skyrocket in this state. Not that pot farmers might be shit out of luck. I hope you're wrong on that but that's not my industry so I don't keep up with it. I'm just not expecting ANY radical changes in the California economy over the next two years or so. I could be wrong, it' snot like I knew the 2008 gas spike would hit and something like that especially if it don't quit could easily tank us but we'll see.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You stated poverty is going to skyrocket in this state. Not that pot farmers might be shit out of luck.

What do you think most folks not Monsanto outside of Los Diego and San FranJose do for a living? If it's not weed directly I promise you a huge portion of their customers are only giving them their money because they have plants in their back yard/garage.

This regulation is going to put allllllllll these pot farmers out of business...everyone who only gets to live in their 400,000 dollar single wide trailers because they can throw 12 plants up in teh back yard and pull 100k off it are going to either become criminals again or will be going on welfare. Under the current legislation.

Their 12/hr job at the hardware store doesn't cut it really anywhere in this state.

I hope you're wrong on that but that's not my industry so I don't keep up with it. I'm just not expecting ANY radical changes in the California economy over the next two years or so. I could be wrong, it' snot like I knew the 2008 gas spike would hit and something like that especially if it don't quit could easily tank us but we'll see.

We will see, it might not because most faced with jail vs homelessness will just risk the jail first. So there is a good chance all this "treat every nug like a nuclear bomb!!" regulation they are cranking out of Sacramento won't be regulating a god damn thing.

But if they don't and they actually follow/enforce it all.....there are going to be a whole lot more broke ass folks in CA. If they can't put those 6-12 plants in their yard to make it work they simply won't be able to afford the place.

You don't take 40bn from the country side and put it in the hands of a few LA/SF socialites without any ill effect....sorry that's just urban libhurhul fantasy.

The easy solution would be to make sure the lil guy licences are issued to anyone meeting all the environmental/safety standards and only limit the uber acreage farmer licences. But considering the blatant money grabbing bullshit going on in Sac over this I'm not holding my breath....

I bet they try and do exactly what it looks like they are doing. Cram this entire industry into a few elite LA/SF pockets.

 

[PoppingTom]

Tackling just this one point. Both non-citizens and the 'open borders' crowd both want to harp on this issue.

Let's start with the fact that our precious waves of immigrants were legal. Their first act crossing the border was not an illegal act. A point that distinguishes them from the current wave of illegals. The difference between an invited guest and a burglar.

The next point is those precious waves of invited immigrants entered a nation that did NOT have extensive, interlocking, duplication, and borderline insane social safety nets. Safety nets envisioned to lend citizens a temporary helping hand, not provide a way of life for citizen and illegal alike.

As far as the Syrians go, you're welcome to them. They are going to bring your government down and if you allow enough of them in your very way of life.

The New German Plague.

Ishmael

You speak about a very important point a lot of people forget:

Your Mexicans are immigrants. They're coming from a less or more safe country. Their legality matters, and I don't know if a proposed amnesty for all the illegal immigrants is worth to take into consideration. But that's your decision.

But the Syrians are refugees. Much like boat people from Cuba. If legality matters, they would be illegals, but here in Germany, they've in a refugee state, which means they can stay till the country they're coming from is labeled a safe country. Then they have to go back, and no, that's not "just a proposion", it's reality, and quite a lot of people from former Yugoslavia or Albania or Romania f.e. face now exactly this: repatriation.

If you really think those masses of refugees bring our government down: they're just refugees, not immigrants. We have even more Turkish immigrants than we face Syrian refugees now, if they could bring our goverment down, they already would. Thing is: we're not America, we're not obsessed to kill our government every possible minute, and immigrants would be stupid even to consider.

 

[PoppingTom]

Oh boy, never had to read such long exchanges.
You guys should start collaborating on role-play stories.

To me, this is roleplay, and bboy plays his role perfectly. I like him, from an entertaining point of view.

 

[Aella_]

To me, this is roleplay, and bboy plays his role perfectly. I like him, from an entertaining point of view.

I was kidding too.
Those exchanges in fact amuse me.

 

[Sean Renaud]

What do you think most folks not Monsanto outside of Los Diego and San FranJose do for a living? If it's not weed directly I promise you a huge portion of their customers are only giving them their money because they have plants in their back yard/garage.

This regulation is going to put allllllllll these pot farmers out of business...everyone who only gets to live in their 400,000 dollar single wide trailers because they can throw 12 plants up in teh back yard and pull 100k off it are going to either become criminals again or will be going on welfare. Under the current legislation.

Their 12/hr job at the hardware store doesn't cut it really anywhere in this state.

I have no clue what happens out in the sticks. But the bottom line comes to what percentage of the total population do you make up and how many of you could not possibly find work within the state or follow whereever the law allows you to continue your work? What percent increase are you considering "skyrocketing?" While it's been my experience that rich people ALWAYS find a way and the number of obstacles you throw in their path really only forces "Trickle Down Economics" to attempt to work as designed by forcing you to pay this guy and that guy and that guy to get your pot of gold but you always get it. Still what number are we talking I mean at minimum.

We will see, it might not because most faced with jail vs homelessness will just risk the jail first. So there is a good chance all this "treat every nug like a nuclear bomb!!" regulation they are cranking out of Sacramento won't be regulating a god damn thing.

Well if that happens your first guess would be incorrect. But I'm still truckin.

But if they don't and they actually follow/enforce it all.....there are going to be a whole lot more broke ass folks in CA. If they can't put those 6-12 plants in their yard to make it work they simply won't be able to afford the place.

You don't take 40bn from the country side and put it in the hands of a few LA/SF socialites without any ill effect....sorry that's just urban libhurhul fantasy.

Seeing how the entire history of mankind has been a trek from the countryside to the big city I'm gonna call bullshit right there unless by "any ill effects" you litterally mean any. In which case I can say that almost nothing happens without any ill effects. You got got a promotion? You're now responsible for the stupid shit timmy does. You're the president? Well you have no more privacy! Otherwise, yeah the city wins for a reason.

The easy solution would be to make sure the lil guy licences are issued to anyone meeting all the environmental/safety standards and only limit the uber acreage farmer licences. But considering the blatant money grabbing bullshit going on in Sac over this I'm not holding my breath....

I don't write the laws. I'm sure they aren't perfect. That hasn't been my point.

I bet they try and do exactly what it looks like they are doing. Cram this entire industry into a few elite LA/SF pockets.

Quite possibly. It wouldn't be the first time that the little guy has been squeezed out intentionally. And this is a case where it's laughably easy because you guys flaunt how much you hate the government. It's not easy to get us LA people to vote for you when you keep insulting us and we often have no horse in the race.

 

[Ishmael]

You speak about a very important point a lot of people forget:

Your Mexicans are immigrants. They're coming from a less or more safe country. Their legality matters, and I don't know if a proposed amnesty for all the illegal immigrants is worth to take into consideration. But that's your decision.

But the Syrians are refugees. Much like boat people from Cuba. If legality matters, they would be illegals, but here in Germany, they've in a refugee state, which means they can stay till the country they're coming from is labeled a safe country. Then they have to go back, and no, that's not "just a proposion", it's reality, and quite a lot of people from former Yugoslavia or Albania or Romania f.e. face now exactly this: repatriation.

If you really think those masses of refugees bring our government down: they're just refugees, not immigrants. We have even more Turkish immigrants than we face Syrian refugees now, if they could bring our goverment down, they already would. Thing is: we're not America, we're not obsessed to kill our government every possible minute, and immigrants would be stupid even to consider.

Horse shit, they're an army of invading cowards.

Ishmael

 

[Sean Renaud]

Horse shit, they're an army of invading cowards.

Ishmael

Isn't that the conservative term for refugee?

 

[IrezumiKiss]

Horse shit, they're not white and fundamentally different from me, with a different, alien culture and a different, hard, indecipherable language.

Ishmael

Just lovin' this new Extra Crispy Old White Asshole translation app for iOS 9.1!

 

[PoppingTom]

They are EXTREMELY libertarian....there is NO government regulation. You can seriously do whatever the fuck you want.

Again and again and again: name one libertarian state!

Somalia, Liberia, Kongo? They're not libertarian, they're anarchist aka war zones. You can do whatever the fuck you wants - till some people with weapons kick your ass and destroy everything you build up and fuck your wife.

Just because there are some people living their tribe life like 100 000 years before and aren't taxed as long as living this way doesn't mean they're libertarian. They'd face government regulation at the moment they become civilized citizens.

...you go kill the mother fucker and take his shit.

It's really that simple.

I'm impressed by the genius of your simplicity. Why oh why didn't the US army never listen to you? It would 've saved thousands of lives in Afghanistan. Or that Black Hawk Down pilot in Somalia.

That doesn't change anything I said.

It does.

As a citizen of a real libertarian state (if you can call it state), you should be able to go wherever you want. Deal with whoever you want. And not fear about your life, or that somebody takes what yours. Otherwise, libertarian would just be another word for anarchism. I adored anarchism in my youth, but I never wanted to stay in a country with anarchism.

You mean the definitions you totally disregard?

You're funny.

Bullshit....it takes away the gold medal, any hope of winning, and thus degrades competition.

A monopolist isn't a winner. No, he's not the only competitor. He's the one who buys the results and kills the competition, for the sake of neverending profit.

The winner is happy to compete with the best. The monopolist don't compete at all. He not only takes away any hope of winning, but of competing at all.

And no, I'm not talking about these natural monopolies where nobody wants to compete.

No I'm not. That's like saying cops are responsible for murders because they didn't stop them in time.

If they were able to do it but decided to do nothing - they're pretty responsible. At least here, in Germany. Same when they decide to use a non-deescalating policy.

Everybody is responsible for his actions. Not only criminals.

The fault is with the criminals day day....what don't you understand about that?

So we got the better, the nicer, the more adult criminals ? But you said criminals are criminals. And now criminals are responsible for doing less crime in Germany ?

Quit praying the "criminals fault" mantra and give an answer related to the topic: What exactly makes them do less crime here?

Race is exactly what racism is about.....

From a dictionary's point of view, you got a point.

Anyway: there is a kind of behavior that comes very close to racism. I would call it antisemitism, but this label is owned by Israel. Though Jews are more: a race, a religion and a nation.

So you not blame Syrians for not being "as white as Germans" or being muslim by default or being supporters of Assad ?

No that's called prejudice or bigotry...

No. You can always do something against prejudice: simply act different to what people expect (I think Clint Eastwoods "Gran Torino" is about overcoming prejudices). Same goes out for bigotry: you simply need to be on the bigot's side. I dont know much about nationalism, but i think it's the same.

But you CAN'T do anything about racism, if you're of the race that's been attacked by racists.

Maybe you're just prejudiced about Syrians.

You're argument fails because not all morality is standardized.....

No I care about morals, I just don't care about YOUR morals.

You mean you're a fucking antichrist? OK, accepted.

Not letting your enemy into your home is not cronyism, it's pragmatism.

You're right, but Syrians aren't your enemies. There is a higher possibility a Pakistani is your very enemy than a Syrian. Letting rather them in isn't pragmatism, it's cronyism, as the US is friend to a few goverment Pakistanis while ignoring the US hating population.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I have no clue what happens out in the sticks. But the bottom line comes to what percentage of the total population do you make up and how many of you could not possibly find work within the state or follow whereever the law allows you to continue your work? What percent increase are you considering "skyrocketing?" .

I think the unemployment and poverty rates are going to at least double under the current laws if they go into effect 2018 as they are written right now. You just can't unplug a 40 Billion dollar industry and expect everything to just be cool.

No they won't be able to find other jobs, that is the only industry bro. Everything else from logging to fishing has been for the most part been regulated into the hands of the elite or out of the state. That's why all these bumpkins started growing pot in the first fucking place. They didn't have ANYTHING else to do or any other way to make a living onces LA/SF showed up and said "You can't do that because reasons!" . And here we are again....LOL

Well if that happens your first guess would be incorrect. But I'm still truckin.

I don't think the people/culture that's spent the last 55-60 years giving the government the finger when it comes to growing pot is simply going to keel over for the state of CA. You're fucking delusional about the farmers love for government.

I rather certain the vast majority are already going back to the black market.

Seeing how the entire history of mankind has been a trek from the countryside to the big city I'm gonna call bullshit right there unless by "any ill effects" you litterally mean any.

You CAN'T import agriculture into the urban setting bro...it just does not work that way. That's why the rich people in LA/SF want to use the government to enslave the farmers as their economic bitches, the rich people call it 'regulation'.

Again and again and again: name one libertarian state!

Somalia, Liberia, Kongo? They're not libertarian, they're anarchist aka war zones. You can do whatever the fuck you wants - till some people with weapons kick your ass and destroy everything you build up and fuck your wife.

Yea those work.

If you want to be a family man you come live in the US or Germany or some place you're a slave to the state that's controlled by the rich. You don't go try and do it all yourself....libertarianism, much like being a G, is NOT family friendly.

From a dictionary's point of view, you got a point.

That's the only POV that matters, everything else is you just making shit up.

So you not blame Syrians for not being "as white as Germans" or being muslim by default or being supporters of Assad ?

Skin color doesn't bother me a bit neither does their brand of psychosis (Islam) or being supporters of who gives a shit.

Maybe you're just prejudiced about Syrians.

Ya think? LOL They are prejudiced against me...so fuck them they can kiss my ass. I wouldn't think twice about pissing off the side of a ship in their faces as they drowned.....prob point and laugh at the mother fuckers while I showed them the bottoms of my feet.

You mean you're a fucking antichrist? OK, accepted.

Nope not that....don't believe in Christ any any other antiquated super heroes.

You're right, but Syrians aren't your enemies.

They aren't? Right up until their religion showed up and started kicking their ass they were on TV chanting "death to USA" and burning our flag.....streets just packed with the assholes talking all that good shit about the USA.

There is a higher possibility a Pakistani is your very enemy than a Syrian.

Prove it.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I'll skip most of this for two points. One the poverty rate will double? Do you mean for your specific sect not the state? If so you're either wrong or they wasted ink and won't apply the law for shit.

Ignoring that you damn well can import agriculture if you care enough that's hardly the point. As is the end result of capitalism everywhere in history the big fish increasingly eat the little fish. In this case the government seems happy to speed things along but even before that happened the inevitable course of history was in play.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I'll skip most of this for two points. One the poverty rate will double? Do you mean for your specific sect not the state? If so you're either wrong or they wasted ink and won't apply the law for shit.

No I mean for the state....you can't cram a 40bn dollar a year industry in to the pockets of a few elites and expect everything to be cool. Regulation simply is not that fucking magical. There are a couple hundred thousand people in just 3 counties (mendo/humboldt/trinity) that are completely dependent upon growing weed. I wouldn't be surprised if a couple to several million people in this state are dependent upon it.

Like I said, I think the vast majority are going to go "Ok...sooooo I'm a criminal again? Cool, prices are coming back up!" and the only thing CA will have done is breath life back into the black market.

Ignoring that you damn well can import agriculture if you care enough that's hardly the point.

You really should give UC Davis and Stanford a call....they would love to know the magical secrets you hold.

But even if it weren't totally banned (urbanites fucking HATE farmers remember?)

SF/LA are not going to be cultivating their own food supply in town any time soon. They don't have enough space in that 7 mile by 7 mile concrete slab to grow food for their residents.

So they use Sacramento to enslave some poor valley fuckers via 'regulation' and super subsidized mega corporations to crush independent farmers .

As is the end result of capitalism everywhere in history the big fish increasingly eat the little fish. In this case the government seems happy to speed things along but even before that happened the inevitable course of history was in play.

I prefer to try and dodge the big fish myself and have the opportunity to become one of them......I think the state stepping in and netting up all the guppies, arbitrarily removing any chance of survival so the big fish can slurp them all down in a couple month time frame is fucking evil shit.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I thought you meant the state I just wanted clarification. See you in 2018 cus one way or another THAT's not happening.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I thought you meant the state I just wanted clarification. See you in 2018 cus one way or another THAT's not happening.

I would hope not.....

I hope Sacramento get's it fucking shit together and realizes this is about more than a few bro's in LA/SF and it would be nice if they wouldn't outright fuck me out of the chance to play the game.

Because if they don't they aren't going to be regulating shit and the north state will blow up more cowboy than ever before.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

did you sign up for more online welfare? clearly you are too lazy to stand in line for something ... even if its free

Just lovin' this new Extra Crispy Old White Asshole translation app for iOS 9.1!

 

[Sean Renaud]

I would hope not.....

I hope Sacramento get's it fucking shit together and realizes this is about more than a few bro's in LA/SF and it would be nice if they wouldn't outright fuck me out of the chance to play the game.

Because if they don't they aren't going to be regulating shit and the north state will blow up more cowboy than ever before.

Oh, I'm quite confident that they know that. Nothing will double the unemployment rate in 2018 shy of a nationwide/worldwide recessioin. (Exception, if we magically get our unemployment rate down below 2% in which case doubling still has us at what's considered full employment.)

Most likely case is the little guys get forced out by the big guys who immediately hire most of the little guys back to work the same land at lower wages. In fact if I had to BET that's where I'd put my money if you turn out to be correct and it slaughters the little guy. Which wouldn't surprise me.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Oh, I'm quite confident that they know that. Nothing will double the unemployment rate in 2018 shy of a nationwide/worldwide recessioin. (Exception, if we magically get our unemployment rate down below 2% in which case doubling still has us at what's considered full employment.)

Most likely case is the little guys get forced out by the big guys who immediately hire most of the little guys back to work the same land at lower wages. In fact if I had to BET that's where I'd put my money if you turn out to be correct and it slaughters the little guy. Which wouldn't surprise me.

The big guys aren't putting them out of a job, the state is.

Like I said....liberal enslavement of the middle class and forcing them into the poor house at the end of a pen in Sac. That is the evil of liberalism/socialism.

Poor folks they are happy fuck in the ass because they don't have to look at them. Just a bunch of hillbillies they can shit on and ignore.

Fucking SCUM.....everyone here KNOWS it and most aren't going to put up with it. If enough of us give Sac the finger (most likely outcome if they don't fix some wording and go for the power grab anyhow) and do what we want? Nothing has changed.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Exception, if we magically get our unemployment rate down below 2% in which case doubling still has us at what's considered full employment.

The fix for that is not magic.....quit letting the state 'regulate' everyone out of a job.

Stop with the cool guy only club licencing practices for every fucking market that has any hope of making a decent living.

 

[Sean Renaud]

They'll toss you in jail and take your shit either way if they care or ignore you if they don't.

And lets not change your song. If big business owns senators then big business and big government are really the same entity. In a more socialist set up the big business would be more opposed to government and vice versa.

Still I'm cool, we'll check back in 2018.

 

[BotanyBoy]

They'll toss you in jail and take your shit either way if they care or ignore you if they don't.

That's different from now how? They have been raiding people all summer....

Like I said, if they don't back the fuck off the fees, or try to not issue any permits, they won't be regulating shit.

If they mobilize the CANG and ball up the whole north state for growing, take a 40BN dollar chunk out of the state and put a few million folks in jail? That's going to fuck CA's economy right in the ass.

And lets not change your song. If big business owns senators then big business and big government are really the same entity.

I'm not changing my song. I've said in reality we live in a corporate oligarchy since I realized it back in 01' when I started paying attention and trying to figure out how to make mo' money. Once you look at it as that everything that's happening makes perfect sense.

And you're right, in these United States as they exist today they are the same entity. "Too big to fail" pretty much confirmed that bigger than shit. The government is 10% regulation, an 90% scamming rich fuckers using their government goons to fuck everyone else out of as much money as possible.

In a more socialist set up the big business would be more opposed to government and vice versa.

Still I'm cool, we'll check back in 2018.

Only in the beginning...Once the rich have established themselves with the help of their government goons they rarely oppose that which keeps the villagers at bay. In the end socialism would still boil down to the government arbitrarily deciding who's rich and who's a wage slave. Which I still find evil as all fuck and totally un-American on pretty much every level.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Then they shant be be regulating shit and you can go back to what you're doing and chillax.

Too big to fail however isn't about them being the same entity, it's about us being too dependant on too few people. Which is a natural outcome in capitalism. You need the King in order to live. That's part of teh reason for breaking up monopolies, to prevent the rise of the King. We've just done a shitty job.

Of course the rich will rise again, they must. You just make sure the system is sufficiently rigged to keep knocking them back down and make it as difficulat as possible for them to get that tier. In the end they will ALWAYS figure it out though.

The choices are not arbitrary at all. They are done in self interest for very specific reasons.