Does the niqab belong in north america?

[chillywilly2]

Right, and the social convention is to welcome other cultures and allow religious freedom. It's also a law.

Covering one's face is not antisocial when it's intended as a sign of devotion to a social group, a religious group, who have the right to practice.

It is not religious garb...it is a social convention that is not practiced here.
82% of Canadians find it offensive

 

[Recidiva]

At least you could see what he looked like.

He also changed his original name.

I saw what he wanted me to see, and that's what you see of a lot of people of casual acquaintance.

What information does seeing what people want you to see, either a niqab, plastic surgery, no makeup, glasses, heavy beards, tattoos...

What value is there to seeing someone that can't already be pretty easily manipulated?

It's not immutable, it's not like a fingerprint, appearance of every aspect of a face can be changed pretty easily with makeup and dye and appliances.

So you're not best friends if you have a visual bias and trust that you can judge character by seeing a face...maybe that's a good thing for both involved.

 

[Recidiva]

It is not religious garb...it is a social convention that is not practiced here.
82% of Canadians find it offensive

What's the difference between a religious tenet and a social convention in this case, and why couldn't accommodations be made?

Nobody's being asked to wear it themselves.

Seems like 82% of Canadians can be kinda inflexible. Refreshing, really.

"Look, we pride ourselves in being openly nice, but fuck that noise."

 

[Lancecastor]

There are people in Africa for whom public nudity is the norm.

In Switzerland, people raise and skin cats for their fur.

Some South Americans are cannibals.

Somewhere, people might walk around with live rodent anus over their dicks.

However, I doubt we will see any of these cultural practices ...or the niqab...accepted in North America anytime soon.

 

[Aella_]

I personally believe that this matter could be argued in so many different ways, and that there's no win-lose situation.
My personal take: since in most cases I tend to be anti-authoritarian:

Legislators who oppose the niqab by conveniently using words such as "they are oppressive/antisocial" etc. are wolves in sheep clothes, imo.

If you ban the niqab, you attack a person's right to freedom of expression and practice of religion.
- In this situation, the so-called "potential risk to others" is not that great, since these women do identify themself upon request.
- And while that big element of oppressing women Does exist, indeed, in muslim cultures, it's only secondary here. Moreover, the niqab has other purposes.

Moreover, if you ban the niqab, you open Pandora's box.
- it may open the door to other types of discrimination (religious, etc,.)
- and that's how progressively closed societies operate: one seemingly trivial drop. Then drop by drop, you end up with a totalitarian regime.

 

[Recidiva]

There are people in Africa for whom public nudity is the norm.

In Switzerland, people raise and skin cats for their fur.

Some South Americans are cannibals.

Somewhere, people might walk around with live rodent anus over their dicks.

However, I doubt we will see any of these cultural practices ...or the niqab...accepted in North America anytime soon.

There are laws against nudity, don't ask me why, seems silly.

People are not cats, unless we're talking furries. Let's not talk furries.

Cannibalism, just say no. Also laws.

Live rodent anus dicks aside as that's funny, but silly. Apparently in some sectors people juggle geese. Geese were juggled.

You're still not giving me a reason why the practice itself has anything wrong with it or does any harm other than "I don't like it."

It's like hearing someone say they can judge an individual by their shoes, or their handshake, or having an "honest face."

Oh honey, have I got a bridge to sell...

 

[Lancecastor]

It's not just me...not much of a thread in that.

And I'm not going to play "numbers chase" with anyone.

Most North Americans don't like the niqab in public service or other positions where face to face dealings are the norm.

Parallel example; most Germans are totally unhappy with the idea of 1.5 Million Syrians coming to their country this year.

The fact their Government is doing it isn't relevant. The people don't like it, so it's a big problem.

It took the UK over 30 years to "get over" their brown skin invasion of the 70's, 80's and beyond...and they're still not happy about it. It's caused a lot of problems.

 

[Recidiva]

It's not just me...not much of a thread in that.

And I'm not going to play "numbers chase" with anyone.

Most North Americans don't like the niqab in public service or other positions where face to face dealings are the norm.

Parallel example; most Germans are totally unhappy with the idea of 1.5 Million Syrians coming to their country this year.

The fact their Government is doing it isn't relevant. The people don't like it, so it's a big problem.

It took the UK over 30 years to "get over" their brown skin invasion of the 70's, 80's and beyond...and they're still not happy about it. It's caused a lot of problems.

Wearing a niqab or having dark skin is only a problem when someone treats it as a problem, which is the fault in the eye of the beholder.

Hosting refugees costs resources, but still, you'd think one of the wealthier nations in the world would be an excellent place to host those who are less fortunate through no fault of their own.

Funny how this mostly comes down to people with higher privilege and sense of "I have what I have because I deserve to have it" decide that those who don't have or have something different makes them feel all oogy.

Being unable to articulate why a niqab is a problem to some and not a problem to others reveals the reasons why it's a problem to some.

 

[Aella_]

Then they should not accept them (tighten up the immigration laws, or put a condition re religion no' no's in the conditions for immigration). That would weed off the undesirables.

But once they have canadian, german, uk etc. citizenship, they have the same rights as everyone else.

 

[Recidiva]

Then they should not accept them (tighten up the immigration laws, or put a condition re religion no' no's in the conditions for immigration). That would weed off the undesirables.

But once they have canadian, german, uk etc. citizenship, they have the same rights as everyone else.

...define...undesirable...

https://justthinkhumanity.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/no-human-being-illegal.jpg

 

[Aella_]

Hosting refugees costs resources, but still, you'd think one of the wealthier nations in the world would be an excellent place to host those who are less fortunate through no fault of their own.

I kinda disagree. Firstly, germany is not doing that well at all(as I was told).
Then: it's kinda tough, I know, but why accept those particular 1.5 mill. people, when there are hundreds of millions of desperate people around the world?

 

[Recidiva]

I kinda disagree. Firstly, germany is not doing that well at all(as I was told).
Then: it's kinda tough, I know, but why accept those particular 1.5 mill. people, when there are hundreds of millions of desperate people around the world?

I'm pretty sure they're doing better than Syria.

...because human beings are social creatures and we should be past the us and them stage.

Not that we are. We just should be.

 

[Aella_]

...define...undesirable...

https://justthinkhumanibeing-illegal.jpg

It's not a Busybody type of word; just an unfortunate choice of words.
For ex: some countries use the points system when screening potential immigrants. The older you are (starting from 30) the fewer points uou get (something like that, I think).
So an older person would be labeled as 'undesirable' (in the nonPC context that I used).

 

[Lancecastor]

That's all very nice.

However, if I moved to Iran tomorrow and greeted a female with a European style mini-hug/air kiss (for example)...I'd be jailed for defying their social convention.

When in Rome, do as the Romans.

In North America, we don't wear face masks.

It's really just that simple.

Wearing a niqab or having dark skin is only a problem when someone treats it as a problem, which is the fault in the eye of the beholder.

Hosting refugees costs resources, but still, you'd think one of the wealthier nations in the world would be an excellent place to host those who are less fortunate through no fault of their own.

Funny how this mostly comes down to people with higher privilege and sense of "I have what I have because I deserve to have it" decide that those who don't have or have something different makes them feel all oogy.

Being unable to articulate why a niqab is a problem to some and not a problem to others reveals the reasons why it's a problem to some.

 

[Aella_]

I'm pretty sure they're doing better than Syria.

...because human beings are social creatures and we should be past the us and them stage.

Not that we are. We just should be.

The majority of those reffugees are young men…

 

[Recidiva]

It's not a Busybody type of word; just an unfortunate choice of words.
For ex: some countries use the points system when screening potential immigrants. The older you are (starting from 30) the fewer points uou get (something like that, I think).
So an older person would be labeled as 'undesirable' (in the nonPC context that I used).

I know there are immigration quotas and I know there are laws, but whether or not those laws are actually justified is another matter.

Shave a couple percentage points of defense budget off the American plan and we'd be able to educate and house everyone.

It's been turned into a problem out of an utter lack of empathy in leadership.

 

[Aquagal]

I think if it becomes acceptable in every day society, people could wear it for nefarious purposes. Try describing someone that just mugged you or robbed a bank or what have you. "She was wearing a black mask dress!"

 

[Recidiva]

That's all very nice.

However, if I moved to Iran tomorrow and greeted a female with a European style mini-hug/air kiss (for example)...I'd be jailed for defying their social convention.

When in Rome, do as the Romans.

In North America, we don't wear face masks.

It's really just that simple.

Definitely learn the laws and render unto Caesar.

Be willing to fess up to your Caesar being a bit of a douche if your laws reflect intolerance.

This should be why people emigrate from douche nations to places where theoretically and historically a nation takes pride in kindness.

There is a law in Iran. There is no law in Canada. I'm okay with people not liking it, that's all under free will.

I'm not okay with people making a law about it and becoming hard core assholes instead of just that little bit uncomfortable.

I'm betting that even with that bit of discomfort, loads of Canadians would help a person in a niqab, get them a sandwich if they were hungry, help them get their car towed if they were in vehicular distress. It's down to practice, really.

You'd be nice, admit it.

 

[Recidiva]

I think if it becomes acceptable in every day society, people could wear it for nefarious purposes. Try describing someone that just mugged you or robbed a bank or what have you. "She was wearing a black mask dress!"

*snicker*

 

[Lancecastor]

Be willing to fess up to your Caesar being a bit of a douche if your laws reflect intolerance.

In Canada, unlike the USA, the many take greater priority than the individual.

So, up here, the douches are the people who come here expecting it's their "right" for our society to change to suit their needs.

 

[Recidiva]

In Canada, unlike the USA, the many take greater priority than the individual.

So, up here, the douches are the people who come here expecting it's their "right" for our society to change to suit their needs.

You've made me sad.

That's right.

Sad.

I hope you're proud of yourself. Canadian.

 

[Aella_]

I know there are immigration quotas and I know there are laws, but whether or not those laws are actually justified is another matter.

Shave a couple percentage points of defense budget off the American plan and we'd be able to educate and house everyone.

It's been turned into a problem out of an utter lack of empathy in leadership.

It's kinda ironic that I have this attitude, I know, since I'm -lucky to be- an immigrant myself.
But it's not only a matter of being humane, unfortunately. It's about being realistic and pragmatic, too.

1.It's about being loyal to your own kind, and putting their needs first. Only after that can you help others.

2.And you also have to discern wisely how you help the outsiders, because your resources for that are limitted.
- If you house All the 1.5 millions of sirian reffugees (undiscriminately, without weeding off the soft cases or the opportunists) - do you have any more money left to help other desperate cases?
Because, tere are hundreds of millions of desperate cases in the world (children dying from poverty, warzones) etc.

 

[Recidiva]

It's kinda ironic that I have this attitude, I know, since I'm -lucky to be- an immigrant myself.

But it's not only a matter of being humane, unfortunately. It's about being realistic and pragmatic, too.

1.It's about being loyal to your own kind, and putting their needs first. Only after that can you help others.

2.And you also have to discern wisely who you help outsiders, because your resources for that are limitted.
- If you house All the 1.5 millions of sirian reffugees (undiscriminately, without weeding off the soft cases or the opportunists) - do you have any more money left to help other desperate cases?
Because, tere are hundreds of millions of desperate cases in the world (children dying from poverty, warzones) etc.

Yeah, realistically and pragmatically government can get off its inefficient and overspendy ass and do something useful for once.

These are tax dollars, many of which are wasted and otherwise misallocated.

Government actually benefiting human beings that are governed and not having money simply recirculate itself to benefit the governing would be great.

 

[Aella_]

Yeah, realistically and pragmatically government can get off its inefficient and overspendy ass and do something useful for once.

These are tax dollars, many of which are wasted and otherwise misallocated.

True… It all comes down to Wallmart and the 0.01% percent, who are ripping us off & making us fight over crumbs.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Turbans and head scarves are one thing.

If i can't see your hair, i don't care.

And if you leave them on during the national anthem, i can deal with that, though it rubs me the wrong way.

But we don't cover our faces in North America except on halloween, masquerade balls and perp walks.

i dont care what you're stuck with in europe or elsewhere, but in north america, your face should remain uncovered.

Draped over your nightstand...