Christianity - Rewiring my Brain

[suckonsimon]

My beef with December the 25th centres more on the modern Retail Industry

And lets not forget those people who put their Christmas Tree up in November, FFS...

We had a rule with our kids that no discussion of Christmas pressies was allowed until the end-of-October half term hols. Now they delight to feed that back to us as an example of the tyranny they suffered at our hands

 

[jaF0]

And lets not forget those people who put their Christmas Tree up in November, FFS...

I had my eyes assaulted in a store this past week.

 

[GiggLeGasm]

I love reading Breezy in full flight. *sits and stares dreamily*

::nods::
for some reason, it makes me happy on the inside

 

[Bramblethorn]

Had someone told me that tale I would have told them the same in no uncertain terms. Not least of all because a broken leg has potentially fatal consequences, as far as fabricated parables go, it's moronic.

Also, it's kinda hard to tend the rest of your flock when you're carrying a lamb around on your back.

Unfortunately I suck at spur-of-the-moment responses and excel at l'esprit de escalier, especially when dealing with somebody who's far more interested in telling me their point of view than listening to their response. And TBH, I was feeling a bit creeped out and just wanted the conversation to be over. So I didn't point this stuff out at the time.

(also also, isn't the point of being a shepherd that eventually you're going to kill those sheep and eat them?)

A friend of my from my post-grad days had RD as his Personal Tutor at Oxford, I told him my problem with RD was he hd no sense of humour and tended to be 'up his own arse', which my friend confirmed as true. It's a pity, he's a smart guy but doesn't understand why his arguments need a more human touch.

That's part of it, certainly, but it's not just how he expresses his views. For example, he has a record of making excuses for any kind of sexism that can't be framed as "religion bad". I'm not going to elaborate here because this thread has enough tangents already, but religious folk, please be assured that I like most of you far better than I like Dawkins

A phrase from Paul's letter to the church in Rome [New Testament of the Bible] is regularly and helpfully used as that 'checklist':

"Confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead".

The beauty is that this is so much more than a 'religious position' or something. When someone is ready to do this, they have come to a glad acceptance of what God has done for us in the life and death and resurrection of Jesus, and they are putting themselves in relationship with Jesus - a multi-relationship with him first as Lord but also as Saviour and Friend and Brother.

Using a 'checklist' such as this is not to be exclusive, but to get to the reality of what it is to be Christian: to have a dynamic at the heart of your life and impinging on all your relationships which is transformative in the direction of love and selflessness.

To put this in the context of my previous post which you quoted, nobody, but nobody, who is into the stuff I have described above would take delight in Muslims dying in a crush on their pilgrimage; that kind of mean and cold-hearted response actually ceases to be a possibility, and that process is part of the meaning of Paul's concluding phrase in relation to what I quoted from him: "you will be saved". For Christians, salvation is among other things a process of losing what is the worst of ourselves and enhancing what is the best of ourselves, in ways which make a difference to our neighbours, including our Muslim neighbours in far away places.

I apologise in advance for putting words in your mouth, but I suspect what you actually mean here is "I cannot conceive of how anybody who believes Paul's words could take delight in that tragedy". I'll happily believe that much, but you're on very shaky ground when you extend that to "and therefore it's impossible that they could".

People are pretty good at believing apparently incompatible things. My friend believes the police are fascist agents of Obama who are going to round her up for the FEMA death camps... but as far as I can tell from certain conspicuous silences, she also believes that police shootings of black kids are legitimate. She acknowledged Matthew 24:36 and in the same breath told me "but I think it's very likely the Rapture will happen this September". She scoffs at young-Earth creationists for believing something so obviously silly... and she has an elaborate theory about how all the people who got killed by the Israelites were soulless descendants of the Nephilim (so no reason to feel bad about wiping them out) and that the Smithsonian is concealing Nephilim skeletons.

I know plenty of atheists who will tell you they're all about rationality and the scientific method... and then reject scientific evidence for anything that conflicts with their prejudices. But I don't get to say "oh they're not REAL atheists, nothing to do with me". I acknowledge that there are some pretty crappy atheists out there, and the rest of us atheists had better try to clean up that mess.

 

[NippleMuncher]

::nods::
for some reason, it makes me happy on the inside

What, you prefer listening to someone who knows what she's talking about, rather than hearsay and propaganda? What a novel concept!

I wasn't going to post this, but the Lord has compelled me to!

 

[GrrlFriday]

Same reason atheists like me have to keep muttering "not Richard fucking Dawkins AGAIN, why can't that tosser just shut up and stop making us look bad? We're not all like that, you know."

Do you know of any good sources for someone looking to make a study of atheism or other non-religious philosophies? Perhaps even ones that attempt to answer the question 'there is no God, now how do I go about living my life?'

I do suggest that you take Said's framework at heart and context context context, because it is with context we can make informed decisions.

There are excellent critics of religion who knows what the bloody hell they are talking about. Also, you may wish to consult Secular Humanist writings, many of them are trained philosophers, scholars of religions, and anthropologists who give a fair and balanced critique of religions.

Care to name some names?

 

[Harold_Hill]

Left web site due to censored messages by chargergirl

 

[Harold_Hill]

Left web site due to censored messages by chargergirl

 

[Bramblethorn]

This was a good thread until the trolls derailed it.

Reminder that the OP's post was basically "I've left Christianity and I'm trying to work out what to do now, please don't try to convert me back" and Harold's first comment here was "here's how you should be a good Christian". Tell me again who's trolling?

 

[jaF0]

^^ Thumpers are never wrong. Everyone else always is.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Do you know of any good sources for someone looking to make a study of atheism or other non-religious philosophies? Perhaps even ones that attempt to answer the question 'there is no God, now how do I go about living my life?'

I may not be a good person to answer that. There are a lot of atheist writers out there, but I don't really keep up with the big names - e.g. I think I've read two Dawkins books in my life (and not "The God Delusion"), although I hear enough about him through other channels to form some opinions.

For me, a lot of the worthwhile stuff comes from non-famous people: blog posts and essays that other people have recommended, that sort of thing. I don't look exclusively for atheist perspectives; plenty of religious people have good ideas that are worth taking on board even if you don't share the religious belief. The important thing is being able to filter and challenge what I read - asking "why?" and "how do we know that?" and "but is that actually true?"

TBH, I've never really felt bothered by that whole "if there's no God, why does anything matter?" question that a lot of people seem to think atheists should be preoccupied with - if nothing matters, then it doesn't matter that it doesn't matter. So I find it simpler just to assume that people do matter, and find some reasonable balance between being good to others and taking care of myself.

One that I do follow is PZ Myers (Pharyngula), who has a good mix of science and atheist thought, with a lot of links to other sources. But I'm not a good person to offer a reading list - sorry about that! I could name some big-name atheist authors but nothing that an Amazon search wouldn't do better.

 

[NippleMuncher]

This was a good thread until the trolls derailed it.

Funny how anyone who does not share your opinion (see link in my earlier post ) is a troll.

 

[Eilan]

I wasn't going to post this, but the Lord has compelled me to!

Opinions are sacred, yo.

 

[Yasuo_]

Eh, not quite.
snip
.

Thank you. I just watched a documentary and obviously had the facts either wrong and/or misrepresented. If there's one thing I'm terrible at, it's anything to do with history. There's just too much and the amount of information just blows my mind. Of course, my highest level of education related to history is a basic college core class of American history. I'm more of a science person, and I'm not even really all that good at that. =P

My brain hurts now. lol

I appreciate your detailed response as usual and I'll think on it. It's still really difficult facing the unknown.

 

[Blase]

I love reading Breezy in full flight. *sits and stares dreamily*

Wow, me too! I've been converted to Breezyism!

 

[suckonsimon]

I apologise in advance for putting words in your mouth, ...

No apology needed! I'm glad to have a critical response to what I write, carefully stated. As you have picked up, I have a passion and conviction that needs just a little taming sometimes!

 

[Cumference]

Wow, me too! I've been converted to Breezyism!

We need more Breezyism in general!

(And vagina magic, certainly more vagina magic)


I heard a very interesting talk about apostatism a couple of years ago by Phil Zuckerman. I normally do not attend lectures at Theology, but this one was interesting. Basically, his research showed, that there are as many reasons for apostatism as there are apostates, but education and exposure to "people with other ideas who, in spite of that, are happy and doing just fine" were heavy on the list.
He did not use that exact wording, but "getting bloody annoyed by formalized stupidity, OCD and denial of obvious facts" then typicaly followed.

I have not read his book, but I guess it is along the same lines.

http://www.amazon.com/Faith-No-More-People-Religion/dp/019024884X

 

[Messier82]

If you're looking to study non-religious philosophies, it's called law.

No. A starting point.

 

[Messier82]

If there's one thing I'm terrible at, it's anything to do with history. There's just too much and the amount of information just blows my mind. Of course, my highest level of education related to history is a basic college core class of American history. I'm more of a science person, and I'm not even really all that good at that. =P

I'm as fascinated by History as I am by Science, but the latter was what I chose at university. There seems to be no shortage of good history material (well, here in the UK at least), our BBC has a reputation for excellent factual (yet interestingly presented) stuff eg A History of Britain, by Simon Schama, more relevantly to this thread, The Crusades, also an earlier version presented by Monty Python man Terry Jones, The Crusades

We also have an excellent kid's version of history on TV, based on the series of books called Horrible Histories, I'm not above watching that for light entertainment

 

[Cumference]

.....
My brain hurts now. lol

I appreciate your detailed response as usual and I'll think on it. It's still really difficult facing the unknown.

But it is a good hurt! It comes from thinking!


Don't look at it as "facing the unknown". Look at it as "facing the realities rather than clinging to a pleasant lie".

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Cumference]

The second best type of hurt

Indeed.

 

[GrrlFriday]

Thanks for the recommendations, I really appreciate them.