Trans attitudes poll

[divacarolina]

Curious about cis straight people's attitudes towards those who identify as trans in some way. but all would be welcome to chime in of course. There are only so many poll options so unfortunately we can't actually get too specific about every possible circumstance trans people face but maybe we'll be able to ask more questions based on these results.

Please take this opportunity to actually be honest about your attitudes. If you're a closeted bi jock this is your chance to admit you're pervy enough to actually feel an attraction to someone who wasn't a high school cheerleader.

Similarly i bet there are gay men who think mtf trans women are just self-loathing gay men. Pick what you actually think, not what you told your friends over brunch this morning.

i might post a more specific poll if we find interesting questions that need specific followups.

 

[CarnivalBarker]

I don't care. And I think we should all be so fortunate as to not care.

 

[divacarolina]

thx Carnival Barker! that means a lot.

for yourself and others who feel that way, would you have a minute to check that off in the poll? I intended to include an option for those who don't second-guess the attraction they feel because of biases against trans people.

I'm following the poll of course but I'm sure others who also identify as trans would love to see support from you and others who treat us like real people.

 

[ErickTheRed]

I have this girl whi was a boy before working at my job and i would surely date her if i could

 

[Trucken]

I really feel that I should start this off with saying that I have nothing whatsoever against trans people. With that in mind, I checked the boxes "cis male", "straight", and "would never have sex with a trans person".

First off, I don't see the need for the word 'cis'. Or, well, I kinda do, but only because people misinterpret the words 'normal' and 'abnormal'. People think they mean 'right' and 'wrong' when they basically mean 'majority' and 'minority'. If something is part of the majority it's just the norm, meaning it's normal. If it isn't then it's abnormal, but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with it. And since the majority of the population identify with the gender they were born with and are straight they have to be considered normal while everyone else falls into the abnormal category. Again, very important to point out, this does not mean that their sexual preferences/identity/whatever is wrong.

Second, the only reason I checked "would never have sex" is because the option I wanted wasn't there which is I don't know. While I'd like to be able to say that I'm so openminded that it wouldn't matter I'm just not sure that I am. I think the thought that this woman used to be a man would gnaw at the back of my head and I would probably not be able to let it go.

Even so, I hardly think that would be a problem. We're talking about people here that has spent a fortune to become who they want to be, and if my dumb ass is their vision of an ideal man then there's something really wrong going on here.

 

[divacarolina]

I really feel that I should start this off with saying that I have nothing whatsoever against trans people.

I'm guessing this is a way of saying, you're not conscious of any bias against trans people and consciously try to avoid being biased when possible. Also thank you for responding to the poll and posting honestly, that's really all I could ask, but as with any form of bias it's possible to have biases you're not aware of. So that's why I think it's important for cis people to consider the issues in the poll and whether they're being as respectful as they intend.

First off, I don't see the need for the word 'cis'.

There's more to it than simple convenience of skipping the phrase 'person who is not transgender'. A 'man' could be a man who is trans, and saying 'man' would not be sufficient to clarify 'man who is not trans'. There is also the problem of addressing trans people as 'not the majority', 'not normal', 'not their biological gender'. I'd rather not be defined by what i'm not and people who use 'cis' are acknowledging that it's a more meaningful description than 'not trans'. Calling you 'not trans' describes you in relation to me and you're entitled to be described on your own terms.

Not to say the term or its usage are perfect or that I manage to use it in a helpful way all the time. But I think it's better than the alternatives and to call me 'not normal' just makes my life suck that little bit more, because i'm already aware everyone freaks the hell out when one of us uses a public restroom.

We're talking about people here that has spent a fortune to become who they want to be...

Unfortunately not always. Not everyone has the money to 'spend a fortune'. The idea that someone is trans in proportion to the money they've spent (and presumably, how attractive they therefore are) instead of how they identify, is a problem. (And I'm not sure the Caitlyn Jenner publicity really helped in this area.)

I don't think anyone is a bad person for not knowing if they'd be attracted to a trans person. It's tough to answer hypotheticals about attraction when it's so instinctive. I've heard so much worse than the things i quoted above from, so I'd agree you don't really have a bias against trans people compared with (for instance) my grandmother. But since there's a shemale porn thread live and kicking on this board I feel like it might help to provide info to those willing to discuss (like yourself) so that there's realistic info available here too.

 

[sunandshadow]

As far as me having sex with someone is concerned, I don't really care what gender someone wants to present themselves as socially; I care what they look like when naked. Post-op trans men who have a normal-looking and functional penis seem to be pretty rare, because f-to-m surgery seems to be technically difficult and risky. Not that I'm an expert on the topic. Pre-op trans-women also aren't usually my cup of tea, since I'd like to support them if they want to transition, but the more they transitioned the less I'd be attracted to them. I don't find breasts attractive, for example, whether they are falsies or the result of hormone therapy or what. And trans-women seem unlikely to be enthusiastic about using their penises during sex, while trans-men seem somewhat unlikely to be enthusiastic about the possibility of a female partner becoming pregnant.

On the social side of things I find it odd when people identify really strongly with either gender, since personally if it were an easy and painless thing to change one's body I'd choose to be a hermaphrodite (slightly more on the male side). Buying too strongly into femininity or masculinity seems like a step backward from sexual equality and escaping old gender stereotypes and prejudices. I don't feel hostile to people who want to revel in being female or male, but I'm unlikely to feel like I have enough in common with them that we should become close friends or date.

 

[BareBackRider2]

Glad you are open to freedom of speech as its so often not the case these days.

I personally believe gender is binary.

Once born a male / female, you can only "play " at being the other.

 

[SlutAddicted]

My response is that I would date but can't promise I would introduce to family or friends.

But I would say that about anyone I date. I have some fairly non-traditional tastes and put a premium on privacy and discretion. And I don't believe that not sharing everything about myself all the time and with everyone I know automatically translates to not being true to myself or my date.

As an example, I have always had a thing for sluts. I married one. She knows all my family and friends. But I don't feel compelled to tell my mom how many men my wife has fucked. I have had friends come to me with a concern that my wife is cheating. I responded by being honest about the nature of our relationship, but I don't feel the need to tell them in advance.

So if I was dating someone who identified as trans I wouldn't go out of my way to hide it and yes I would make those introductions if I had long-term plans with the person.

 

[Laplaciana]

I have a problem with the c-word. There already exists a word for me in the English language: woman.

I am a woman, because I have female anatomy. If male transgenders want to call themselves transwomen, they can go ahead, but I am still a woman. There is no need to qualify me as a real woman; the term "woman" covers it.

I'm a woman, they're men who enjoy trying to make themselves look like women, and like to pretend they are women.

Men who want to be women, shouldn't get to have special dispensation to force me into changing my language about myself.

I think this whole trans premise was faulty from the beginning. Women can't identify their way into being men, and men can't identify their way into being women, any more than humans can identify their way into being bunnies.

 

[pm4321]

I didn't answer

I don't know what cis stands for regarding sexual orientation, but to be honest why do we care? That's not a shot at the poll, just the people who dump on those who identify one way or another. I grew up in a pretty homophobic circle and if I'm honest, I probably was one. Now, I'd consider being with a guy (just fooling around, doubtful long term), in the perfect situation. Does that make me gay or bi? I can't think of anything I care less about than that label. Caitlyn Jenner is hot, good for her. If you are trans, pan or whatever, then I'd be your friend and kick someone's ass if they said shit about it.

 

[Trucken]

I'm guessing this is a way of saying, you're not conscious of any bias against trans people and consciously try to avoid being biased when possible. Also thank you for responding to the poll and posting honestly, that's really all I could ask, but as with any form of bias it's possible to have biases you're not aware of. So that's why I think it's important for cis people to consider the issues in the poll and whether they're being as respectful as they intend.

Yeah, that's kinda what I was going for. I would like to say that I get it, that I know how it must feel to feel like you were born with the wrong body, but I never will. I can only try to sympathize, but I will never truly understand what it must feel like. I will never truly understand the struggles of someone that is transgendered, but I want them to be happy.

There's more to it than simple convenience of skipping the phrase 'person who is not transgender'. A 'man' could be a man who is trans, and saying 'man' would not be sufficient to clarify 'man who is not trans'. There is also the problem of addressing trans people as 'not the majority', 'not normal', 'not their biological gender'. I'd rather not be defined by what i'm not and people who use 'cis' are acknowledging that it's a more meaningful description than 'not trans'. Calling you 'not trans' describes you in relation to me and you're entitled to be described on your own terms.

Not to say the term or its usage are perfect or that I manage to use it in a helpful way all the time. But I think it's better than the alternatives and to call me 'not normal' just makes my life suck that little bit more, because i'm already aware everyone freaks the hell out when one of us uses a public restroom.

That... actually puts it a little bit in perspective. I'm still not sold on the whole 'cis' thing, but I get that if I were to be called normal it would mean that you would be 'not normal', and considering how the word is used these days... Yeah, I kinda get it.

Unfortunately not always. Not everyone has the money to 'spend a fortune'. The idea that someone is trans in proportion to the money they've spent (and presumably, how attractive they therefore are) instead of how they identify, is a problem. (And I'm not sure the Caitlyn Jenner publicity really helped in this area.)

I don't think anyone is a bad person for not knowing if they'd be attracted to a trans person. It's tough to answer hypotheticals about attraction when it's so instinctive. I've heard so much worse than the things i quoted above from, so I'd agree you don't really have a bias against trans people compared with (for instance) my grandmother. But since there's a shemale porn thread live and kicking on this board I feel like it might help to provide info to those willing to discuss (like yourself) so that there's realistic info available here too.

No, yeah, you're right, not everyone has the funds, I was just saying that those that have made the 'switch' are more likely to be looking for someone looking more like Channing Tatum or Chris Hemsworth, not me.

I was a lot more homphobic and intolerant when I was younger, but in the past couple of years I've mellowed out. I just want everyone to be happy, no matter gender, sexual preference, or race.

Man, I sound like a hippie. Terrifying.

 

[coati]

In my long professional career, I have worked with three trans women, and all of them were a joy to work with. I admire anyone who has the courage to overcome unjust societal pressures, and trans people at this point in history generally know what it is like to be subject to negative societal pressure.

Socially, I have met people from the whole spectrum of gender identification, and have been intimate or affectionate with cis women and men, as well as two trans women. But, I must say there that many cis people, myself included, have both masculine and feminine aspects, even though we primarily identify as male or female.

I have never been affectionate with any trans men, but I would not rule it out. I just like certain people, and I don't care how they identify. I would date any person (of any gender identification) to whom I am attracted, and would introduce them to my friends and family.

 

[stickygirl]

In the context of a poll, use of the word cis shouldn't get anyone's knickers in a bunch: it is largely an academic term to describe someone whose sex was correctly assigned at birth with all the happy, uncomplicated life that goes with it. Lucky them.
The trouble with living a life where you have never questioned your gender, is that you assume since you are ok, then surely everyone else is as well: this is privilege. If you have a benefit you were born with, it is privilege. Refusing to accept that someone who finds that every hour of the day, they have a persistent sense of their body not matching their sense of gender identity, is discrimination every bit as much as thinking that black people are untrustworthy or that gay people brought AIDS into the world. Discrimination is born of ignorance, fear and complacency - none of which have a place in a civilised society.
Ignorance can be fixed by listening to what people have to say, fear can be fixed by meeting it face to face and having a coffee with a trans person *hello* Complacency is fixed by realising that when 40% of trans people are driven to attempt suicide and that 350,000 kids are made homeless each year in the USA because they are gay or transgender, it is wrong in the richest country in the world, that has a big statue of Liberty as one of its national icons.

I find it quite hard to understand cis-gender women, living in our patriarchal society, who have had to accept that being female carries less privilege, then refuse to acknowledge that other sections of society suffer prejudice because of who they are as well. But then, I have seen women who scoff at other women who suffer dysmenorrhea or think that endrometriosis is psychosomatic, so I shouldn't assume that just because they suffer themselves, they are going to are broad-minded enough to look beyond their own front gate.

Trans people are not here to undermine society or steal your children. Nor are we 'playing' at being another sex. We represent a tiny percentage of the overall population and we want to contribute and be productive, just like everyone else - if we can be allowed to do that.

I think the OP has set herself a difficult task in setting the poll, because it is impossible to cram all the different facets and nuances of people's tastes and preferences into a necessarily short set of questions. If it gets people talking and discussing then that has to be a good thing

 

[Laplaciana]

I'm loathe to engage in this debate here. Whenever I've given voice to my observations, transgenders sent me harassing messages that I should shut up. Whenever I've laid out my reasoning, transgenders sent me histrionic messages about how I must shut up, and that they were better women than I was, as well as that they knew more about what it meant being a woman.

And whenever I refused to substitute their judgement for my own, they proceeded to send me death threats.

There are opinions, and there are verifiable scientific facts. They are called scientific facts for a reason: they are not up for debate.

I would need a novel, to fully lay out my stance on this. The attitude I have today, was shaped by years of contact with various transgenders. It was shaped by getting death threats, after I had said that a dick wasn't a female organ. It was shaped by backing up a lesbian friend, who didn't want to have sex with a male transgender, who then proceeded to sic a gaggle of genderists on her, trying to shame and bully her into letting him fuck.

I wish this was the worst behaviour I had ever experienced from male transgenders, alas I cannot make this claim.

By now, I would never enter into a relationship with a transgender. Sexual attraction is something you can't bullshit with. You are either attracted to someone or you aren't.

Anyway, I like to think of this board as my playground, so I'm checking out of this topic.

 

[coati]

Trans people are not here to undermine society or steal your children. Nor are we 'playing' at being another sex. We represent a tiny percentage of the overall population and we want to contribute and be productive, just like everyone else - if we can be allowed to do that.

This is so important. I hope that strongly-opinionated people who fear differences will pause, take some deep breaths, refrain from making generalizations about trans people, and do their best to live and let live.

 

[CyranoJ]

I don't share Laplaciana's level of angst (nor much else about her apparent attitude to transgenders, it would appear), but I do tend to agree with her that I find the "cis" terminology largely superfluous.

The poll should have an option for "I don't know how I'd react." The truth is that running across a relationship with a transgender for most people is pretty statistically unlikely, so speculating about how one would respond to it is dubious at best. I'd like to think it wouldn't matter to me one way or another? But I can't actually make that claim with zilch in the way of direct experience to back it up.

 

[divacarolina]

The poll should have an option for "I don't know how I'd react."

Yeah just in one poll it was tough to fit in what i thought would be relevant and concrete questions vs. actually getting good data. I may do another with better design later. The trouble with an "I don't know" response is that while it's honest and reasonable - no one is attracted to everyone of the genders that they're attracted to - a simple "i don't know" isn't specific in terms of what aspects of the issue drive people's attitudes.

This poll has helped though in framing some specific questions for version two, to help give a range of specific options without leaving out possibilities. Like, I should be able to focus on a few things such that you should have an option to choose no matter what your opinion.

The 'cis' thing vs. other terms, I think is just a matter of education maybe for everyone. 'Genetic' is a possible alternative to 'cis' and is probably more commonly used outside of the trans community. As long as people don't assume 'genetic' means 'better' it's ok with me.

 

[CyranoJ]

The trouble with an "I don't know" response is that while it's honest and reasonable - no one is attracted to everyone of the genders that they're attracted to - a simple "i don't know" isn't specific in terms of what aspects of the issue drive people's attitudes.

Right, but I'm not talking about "I don't know" as in "I can't know which specific people I would or wouldn't be attracted to;" I mean "I don't know" as in "I can't state with confidence what my actual reaction to potentially being in a relationship with a transperson would be." I could state what I theoretically believe, but I don't feel it's responsible to speculate on how I would actually react because that's a vastly different proposition. (Obviously there are limits with the number of questions one can have on a poll, but I'd prioritize an option for this above that rather strange question about "passing" -- which seems to be folding in a separate issue -- or above the "straight" option if you're already identifying the poll as being for straight "cis" men and women.)

 

[divacarolina]

I could state what I theoretically believe, but I don't feel it's responsible to speculate on how I would actually react because that's a vastly different proposition.

Outside the context of the poll I've heard of a lot of people saying they know, absolutely, that they wouldn't ever be able to feel sexual and/or romantic attraction to someone trans, even without any knowledge or experience of trans people. Unfortunate but true.

Also outside the context of the poll, a major concern of certain people seems to be how others outside the relationship would react to the idea of them being involved with someone trans. As in, maybe he'd date her if she passed, but what if his friends think he's dating a man? is he gay now? Thus the 'passing' question. also unfortunate and maybe less common on Lit than in real life, but still something i've heard.

 

[BiDrew42]

I am currently in a relationship with a girl who has just begun transitioning from male to female. Prior to starting hormone treatment just last week, she has been living as a female and identified herself as a crossdresser. She was beautiful and passable as a female from the day I first met her. She's Chinese, petite, and even without makeup she is very feminine-looking. Prior to meeting her I would have described her as a femboy.

Our living arrangement was only supposed to last a couple of weeks after I first arrived in Australia. We have become very close, and I just purchased an apartment where we are living together. I have introduced her to my boss, who is aware of her gender, and is very supportive. He is a gay male, however, and I'm not sure a straight male would be as supportive. I have also met her close circle of friends who all know her gender. Most of them are very supportive and the one's who aren't are more concerned about our age difference - she's 24 and I'm 54. My brother and his very conservative wife are visiting next month, which will be interesting. My brother knows I'm bisexual but I haven't told him about my new girlfriend.

I have dated a MtF transgender in the past, but that was in the early 80's and as far as my friends and family knew I was 100% straight and they never met her.

 

[Messier82]

I don't care. And I think we should all be so fortunate as to not care.

Very pure free-thinking attitude, I like it. If everyone just got on with their own lives and left others free to do the same...

Unfortunately the real world is generally hard, cruel and inherently unfair as I'm sure many Lit folk are all too well aware.

 

[CyranoJ]

Outside the context of the poll I've heard of a lot of people saying they know, absolutely, that they wouldn't ever be able to feel sexual and/or romantic attraction to someone trans, even without any knowledge or experience of trans people. Unfortunate but true.

I do take your point. I guess the upside is that I'd wager a lot of that, too, is false certainty. People are big on yapping about what they'd never do and what they'd totally do without hesitation and much of the time it's nonsense.

 

[MrRandyWatson]

I am a cisgendered male. I am not, however, a cissy. But I do prefer females and would want a partner to actually look like one. So at least from my standpoint of future partners (assuming my wife dies or leaves me) I know what I want. It doesn't affect my attitude toward transfolk otherwise.

 

[stickygirl]

There are opinions, and there are verifiable scientific facts. They are called scientific facts for a reason: they are not up for debate.

Wrong. Science is always up for debate or else we'd still think we had a flat earth. In this case your implied understanding of science is very much open to debate.

The attitude I have today, was shaped by years of contact with various transgenders. It was shaped by getting death threats, after I had said that a dick wasn't a female organ.

So… transphobic woman goes into bar frequented by trans women, uses transphobic slurs in earshot, gets insulted back. Sheesh. Meanwhile in other non-news, water is still wet.

Just to repeat, cis is really an academic term to clarify distinctions between those who are and those that aren't. In context, it's a useful linguistic term but no one is expecting people to use it outside of trans-related discussion. It would be as superfluous as describing yourself as bipedal - unless you were discussing anthropological changes or access to buildings for one-legged people.

I am a cisgendered male. I am not, however, a cissy. But I do prefer females and would want a partner to actually look like one. So at least from my standpoint of future partners (assuming my wife dies or leaves me) I know what I want. It doesn't affect my attitude toward transfolk otherwise.

No one's suggested you're a cissy and there's nothing wrong in preferring to date cis-gender women to trans women, anymore than it being wrong to find blonds more attractive than brunettes. The question is though, how would you know a particular woman was trans or cis?