Rape culture in BDSM

[Scrivener_]

So, I'm a submissive. I'm not terribly active in the lifestyle, although sometimes I'll post on the personal ads here looking for a bit of companionship and fun. And every so often, a personal ad will in turn catch my eye and make me want to get to know that person. It's turned out well, ninety five percent of the time, or at least not-unwell. Either there's mutual attraction, or there's not. Either there's fun and respect and good times to be had, or there's not. However, there's that five percent still unaccounted for, isn't there?

A bit of personal history about me: I was sexually assaulted when I was eighteen (in fact it was my first experience seeing a penis up close!). It wasn't an out and out rape - in fact, an outsider might have said it was consensual. I was in a car, parked in my high school parking lot, with my best girlfriend at the time, a gay guy, and a straight guy. The straight guy basically coerced us into doing various sexual acts, and the implicit undertone was, either do these acts, or get out of the car and walk the mile and a half home by yourself on a snowy December night. And while I never said no, the smell of vanilla hand lotion (which my girlfriend kept applying to both guy's penises) would for months after make me feel clammy and faint. Although it's been nine years since it happened, it's something that will always inform the way I respond to people sexually. This is not something I tell strangers, but if we're going to have a sexual relationship, I'll let you know about it at some point.

And for most women, it's not the out and out rapists that really get to us. It's the coercers. The "Aww, but I'm really good at persuasion!" response when we clearly say, "No, I'm not comfortable doing that thing you asked me." In a real life situation, it would be easy enough to just walk away, but what happens when you experience this kind of coercion online?

This recently happened to me - I was getting to know a young man, and he wanted to speak to me on the phone. I told him that I had anxiety about phone conversations - like, seriously, unless I know you really well, it is perhaps my least favorite way to communicate. I'm not sure if he misunderstood my use of the word anxiety (I meant it in the clinical psychological sense), but his response was, "I bet if you tried it, you'd really like it! You should fight through your nervousness!" As you can see from my story above, this obviously pressed some buttons for me. I had set a fairly clear boundary (from my perspective, at least), and he wasn't respecting it. We were talking on kik at the time, but he had my skype information, too. He said, "Okay, unless you tell me you REALLY don't want me to call, I'm going to call you." I didn't know what to do. I shut down. I didn't, couldn't say anything else. And the thing that put the last nail in that budding friendship's coffin was his last message to me on kik: "You have to pick up sometime..." No. No, I fucking don't.

So what do you do, when this kind of thing happens to you, apart from hitting the block button multiple times and putting the incident from your mind? Was I not clear enough in my boundaries, I wonder? Do I have to literally spell it out for people, "No, I have this mental illness called anxiety, it is not like nervousness, and if I say I am not comfortable with something, you should respect my boundaries"? A lot of me says I shouldn't have to do that. That if I express reticence or reluctance with doing something, it is obviously NOT consent. I shouldn't have to sit on anyone's head to get my point across.

Sorry for the novel. It's just that this has come up more than a few times in my play and I'd really like some advice.

 

[Primalex]

Ignoring your wishes might be a sign of disrespect, but is neither rape nor coercion.


And to answer the question:
If someone decides to ignore your wishes, spelling your wishes out in a different way does not solve the problem.


The question is, why did you choose to not tell him that you REALLY don't want him to call, when he specifically asked you to clarify the line between resistance-foreplay and actual resistance?

 

[MeekMe]

If it's online, block and never speak to them again. This is something that happens whether BDSM is involved or not. If they can't respect that boundary, they're likely to overlook all your others. It's not worth it to continue on with creeps like that.


Sometimes people don't understand anxiety. Spell it out for them and then block them. Maybe they'll learn something (not likely). I have no patience for the type that think they can coerce others into doing something. I've blocked for less.

 

[Scrivener_]

Ignoring your wishes might be a sign of disrespect, but is neither rape nor coercion.


And to answer the question:
If someone decides to ignore your wishes, spelling your wishes out in a different way does not solve the problem.

If someone can't bother to respect my wishes and we've known each other for all of two days, obviously they're not worthy of my time or energy.

 

[Scrivener_]

Ignoring your wishes might be a sign of disrespect, but is neither rape nor coercion.


And to answer the question:
If someone decides to ignore your wishes, spelling your wishes out in a different way does not solve the problem.


The question is, why did you choose to not tell him that you REALLY don't want him to call, when he specifically asked you to to clarify the line between resistance-foreplay and actual resistance?

Because I fully believe that no means no, and doesn't require further clarification. Resistance-foreplay? There was no foreplay involved here.

 

[DesEsseintes]

You shouldn't have had to write this, but it is certainly a step in the right direction for the hard of thinking. You can from now on point people to this post if they show an interest in taking things further than the merely friendly. And if it was not rape you went through it was close enough to make little difference. Certainly in the UK, the test is no longer an absence of 'No', but the presence of 'Yes' - in other words, you have to actively consent, or at least be in a position to give consent.

I don't understand why people don't understand that consent is the single most important thing in BDSM. Yes, you can voluntarily relinquish the option, but that in itself requires consent, and a carefully discussed, well-thought-out consent. All these things are far easier with physical meetings, of course, where body language and other signals are easier to read, but they should be straightforward enough online, too. I sincerely hope that having to repeat your experience here, to strangers, as you said you did not wish to do, will at least make things easier for you from now on. But there are a lot of idiots out there.

 

[Scrivener_]

Thank you very much, Des.

 

[Primalex]

Because I fully believe that no means no, and doesn't require further clarification.

It's just that this has come up more than a few times in my play and I'd really like some advice.

Okay, so you don't want advice, you want confirmation of your beliefs. My fault.

 

[Scrivener_]

I fail to understand how "no means no", a major tenant of BDSM practices, isn't valid here.

 

[DesEsseintes]

I fail to understand how "no means no", a major tenant of BDSM practices, isn't valid here.

I suppose it must be because in a consenting BDSM relationship, rape-play and other forms of non-consent can be common, where no does not mean no (hence the use of safe-words). Since none of that applies to your scenario, however, I fail to see why it is relevant here. As I understand it, you weren't discussing non-consent.

 

[Scrivener_]

Not at all, Des. This was a phone call. Yes, the undertone was that perhaps sexy stuff was going to happen ON the phone call, but it was hardly planned.

 

[KoPilot]

I fail to understand how "no means no", a major tenant of BDSM practices, isn't valid here.

Ignore him, he's a tool that's just trying to justify his own behavior.

BDSM is like a little slice of the larger world, unfortunately. Where society as a whole is sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and awash in "no means 'try harder'", BDSM... largely reflects this, even though it purports to be liberated and enlightened. It also, like the wider world, is pretty terrible at rooting out the abusers, alienating them, and discouraging problematic behavior.

Honestly, guys like your kik "friend" has a lesson to learn in respecting boundaries, and while you blocking and ignoring him probably isn't going to give him the clue-by-four that he needs, you're taking care of YOU, and that's fucking important. The ignore button is going to be your best friend. Love it, cherish it, and don't stress about using it at all. You don't owe strangers shit as soon as it stops being beneficial to you. Life's too short to give and get nothing back.

 

[Scrivener_]

Thank you, KoPilot! I'm also an inclusive feminist so brokering my feminism and woman-positive politics with my submission has been a bit of a battle, heh.

 

[KoPilot]

Thank you, KoPilot! I'm also an inclusive feminist so brokering my feminism and woman-positive politics with my submission has been a bit of a battle, heh.

It's pretty maddening, innit?

Take it slow and keep some liquor on hand. :V

 

[Netzach]

The way in which we say no is often problematic. We feel like "no" without an explanation is mean and wrong, when it's just normal behavior.

When you go into *why* you said no, explaining past bad experiences, you shed a little more power to that other person the more detailed the explanation gets. You don't owe extensive explanation to someone you don't even feel ready for a regular ol' phone call with. Because you said so and you have reasons is enough. Period. If you believe that, act like it when you say no to people. It's a skill, and it's especially a skill if you're a woman because we have to smile and make everyone like us at any cost says the playbook. If someone said "no but its because I have anxiety over these intimate details of my past life" can you blame me if I assume she wants me to be closer to her, intimately entangled in the workings of her head and not telling me "no, don't talk to me?" You don't feel like the message is mixed, but you need to be aware when you are leaving a door into your psychic space open. Don't beat yourself up over this - just learn some resting bitch face judo and don't show your hand.

Don't expect anyone to be more enlightened about consent just because they do the kinky. Ever.

Work on your no, but don't blame yourself if it doesn't work out. I know it's a hard balancing act. But improving my no has immensely lowered my rate of being persuaded into things I don't like. Which I think is a universal female experience, if there is any.

Once more, do NOT blame yourself if you're not inherently good at this skill. You have accumulated a lifetime of messaging that if you use this skill you are a bitch and a horrible person.

If you don't believe that you don't owe explanations, do the work you need to do to get to that place. No means no. Personally I believe that a person can negotiate away certain "no" if not a lot of "no" but when they do they're in a place of stability - either complete relationship stability or intense personal stability in regard to risk (whether outsiders would say bad idea or not) - neither of which are places most people are in most of the time.

 

[FurryFury]

What I see going on here is someone who has decided what you will be and do for him despite what you have to say on the subject. This is not just a BDSM situation it's something I've seen in many relationships even non sexual ones.

Many people look at another person and simply decide that person is X to me no matter how much information they get to the contrary.

You said no. You didn't answer. You kept your boundaries. He disqualified himself. Good job!

*hugs*

 

[rhod101]

This is just my thoughts on your initial post, so please feel free to disregard everything that I write. I'm not really particularly knowledgeable about BDSM, but there are certainly aspects that attract me to it.

I think the difficulty here is that when you wrote about 'anxiety' the boy in question read it as nervousness rather than in the clinical sense that you described. That's unfortunate and without being a witness to the exact wording and bearing in mind that context and nuance can easily be lost in text conversations, I can see how what you wrote could possibly be seen as coyness.

The issue is that when you apply context, as in your horrific experience, it's easier to understand that when you implied 'no' through mentioning your anxiety, you really meant 'no.' Either he missed that or he wished to override your fears. If the first one, then it's unfortunate. If the second, then he deserves that ignore button.

Again, please feel free to ignore me and I'm sorry to hear about your experience. It sounds horrible and I hope the guy that perpetrated that on you and your friends gets an awful dose of karma.

 

[Netzach]

I don't think that guy would give a good rat's ass even if she could convey to him what a clinical panic attack implies or that she would have one the moment he hung up.

 

[Scrivener_]

I don't think that guy would give a good rat's ass even if she could convey to him what a clinical panic attack implies or that she would have one the moment he hung up.

I don't know if my anxiety goes so far as panic attack (I do get them, but only if my PTSD (yes, another mental illness of mine) gets triggered). But I do have pretty bad social anxiety and interacting with someone for the first time in a non-text-based sense does trigger some pretty bad anxiety - racing worried thoughts, sweaty palms, etc. But my point is that I shouldn't have to explain all that to whoever I'm talking to; a simple "I don't feel like doing that right now, but maybe in the future, thanks!" should suffice.

 

[HellBenttoo]

I am confused. You title your post "Rape Culture in BDSM" and I don't see how your post relates either to rape or bdsm, but that is likely my failing to understand. I am also confused when you said that you did not tell him "no". Nowhere in your original post did you relate us that you used the simple term "no". In fact, you state that he had your Skype information. How did he get your information? Did you give him this information and if so, why? Doesn't giving someone your information or telephone number imply that you want them to call you?

It may be because I am old and male but all I see is a failure of communication. No means no, but you have to say it.

 

[MeekMe]

Stag

We need a 'like' button.

 

[Scrivener_]

I am confused. You title your post "Rape Culture in BDSM" and I don't see how your post relates either to rape or bdsm, but that is likely my failing to understand. I am also confused when you said that you did not tell him "no". Nowhere in your original post did you relate us that you used the simple term "no". In fact, you state that he had your Skype information. How did he get your information? Did you give him this information and if so, why? Doesn't giving someone your information or telephone number imply that you want them to call you?

It may be because I am old and male but all I see is a failure of communication. No means no, but you have to say it.

See, that is how you ask for elucidation. This is the respectful self-aware way to do it. Thumbs up, old dude! (And no, before anyone gets confused, I am legitimately excited and pleased that he asked in this specific way.)

I stated that I view myself as a submissive in the very first sentence - the link between that and BDSM should be fairly clear.

So, the rape bit was covered in my story about the sexual assault - even though it was not technically rape, it was still a sexual act without any consent whatsoever. This is related to my having a hard time actually SAYING no - rape culture teaches women that saying an outright no will get them hurt, demeaned, or worse, and also that it's just an opening for bargaining on the other person's part (as happened here).

I did give him my Skype information, but I intended to use it just to use the chat feature, not the phone or video features, since it's a faster method of communication than chatting here.

 

[besty95]

I would love to get raped along with my mom! BBC are optional

 

[KoPilot]

Yup. Thread needs a "go Stag" button. Droppin truthbombs all up in here.

I would love to get raped along with my mom! BBC are optional

Oh and Lex, take notes. THIS is how you troll.

 

[besty95]

Yup. Thread needs a "go Stag" button. Droppin truthbombs all up in here.



Oh and Lex, take notes. THIS is how you troll.

Yo I ain't trolling! I really would love to get raped along with my mom! I once allowed myself to be groped by an old man in the public bus!