Values, Morals and Ethics

[SweetErika]

I've run into a handful of situation regarding values, morals and ethics recently, so I thought it might be an interesting topic to discuss here. I know this might be a touchy subject, but I'd like to keep the focus on conversation vs. judgments.

Some questions to get started, but feel free to pick and choose, ask your own questions, share experiences, etc.:

How often do you find yourself facing a moral or ethical dilemma?

How much do you value morals and ethics, both pertaining to yourself and others? Do you have a stricter code for yourself, or are you more flexible? Do you choose friends/partners who place a similar amount of value on honesty, morals and ethics, or do you prefer diversity in this area? Jettison people in your life if you learn your values/morals/ethics are vastly different?

Do you have a different standard for others than yourself? For instance, if someone else doesn't leave a great server a tip or cheats on a test, are you able to gloss over/justify their behavior more than if you had done the same thing, or vice versa?

If you accidentally violate your own code (e.g. finding an item in your shopping cart after you've already walked out of the store, or realizing the cashier didn't charge you for something you should have paid [extra] for), how do you feel and act? Do you try to correct the mistake ASAP? Brush it off as a simple accident? Does/would it keep you up at night if you couldn't correct it?

I'm sure it's accurate to say that we all lie, even if we limit ourselves to white lies. Where do you draw the line for yourself? Do you tend to 'fess up if you tell a lie that you don't believe will harm anyone at the time, then later find out it WAS harmful/problematic, or do you usually let it go and hope for the best?

 

[fire_breeze]

I've run into a handful of situation regarding values, morals and ethics recently, so I thought it might be an interesting topic to discuss here. I know this might be a touchy subject, but I'd like to keep the focus on conversation vs. judgments.

Some questions to get started, but feel free to pick and choose, ask your own questions, share experiences, etc.:

How often do you find yourself facing a moral or ethical dilemma?

How much do you value morals and ethics, both pertaining to yourself and others? Do you have a stricter code for yourself, or are you more flexible? Do you choose friends/partners who place a similar amount of value on honesty, morals and ethics, or do you prefer diversity in this area? Jettison people in your life if you learn your values/morals/ethics are vastly different?

Do you have a different standard for others than yourself? For instance, if someone else doesn't leave a great server a tip or cheats on a test, are you able to gloss over/justify their behavior more than if you had done the same thing, or vice versa?

If you accidentally violate your own code (e.g. finding an item in your shopping cart after you've already walked out of the store, or realizing the cashier didn't charge you for something you should have paid [extra] for), how do you feel and act? Do you try to correct the mistake ASAP? Brush it off as a simple accident? Does/would it keep you up at night if you couldn't correct it?

I'm sure it's accurate to say that we all lie, even if we limit ourselves to white lies. Where do you draw the line for yourself? Do you tend to 'fess up if you tell a lie that you don't believe will harm anyone at the time, then later find out it WAS harmful/problematic, or do you usually let it go and hope for the best?

What a fascinating topic, SweetErika! I know I've said it before, but it bears repeating - I've got a huge girl crush on you

I do differentiate between morals and ethics. Morality, for me, is a socially constructed system of set of beliefs. Ethics is about personal conduct (for me) that is based on values for the good of humanity, that may contradict social mores. I sometimes joke that I am an extremely ethical person, albeit a bit loose with morals . And then to add to the whole complicated mess, both morals and ethics are each uniquely socially and culturally formed so at times, being a 'straddler' of two different worlds, I find that the morals and ethics that I grew up with clashes with the ones of the environment, so I just ended up creating my own .

People I associate closely with, that is chosen family, friends, my all, tend to have the similar ethical bent and similar morals and share similar values. That said, I do have friends who share very very different values/ethics/morals than I do. It makes for interesting dinner conversations. That said, I have cut people off when I found out how they held very different moral/ethical views than I. I just couldn't associate myself with them.

Interestingly enough, I tend to be much more strict towards myself than to others. I can often understand what drove other people to do something that I would never even consider doing and usually forgive them, but if I find myself doing something, I find it very difficult to forgive myself. So yes, I have returned to the cashier if I accidentally didn't pay for something. I actually will tell the cashier if I think s/he is undercharging me. I actually one time even called a store in New York City when I came back to Montreal when I realised that they didn't charge a pretty expensive item and offered to pay by credit card. It simply plays into my value system. And I do realise that it seems exaggerated, but I am the type to be kept awake at night about these things, so I guess the bottom question is whether I do it because it is the right thing to do, or because I'm selfish and I would not be able to sleep at night if I don't do it? I frankly don't know.

I pretty much try to live a life that I want to see lived - and that means honesty, compassion, respect and integrity. I hate to see suffering, and so I try my best to alleviate it in any which way I can. So that means not telling a lie that has the potential to snowball into an ugly truth - for me it's just not worth it. I have to live with myself, and if I know that I have brought hurt to others, well... I don't know if I can.

I don't know if this were the points of discussion you were looking for, and I realise it is pretty simplistic, but the truth is my life is complicated enough. A relatively simple code of ethics makes sense to me.

 

[LadyVer]

It's a daily thing for me, choosing between right or wrong, or how to handle a situation in the best way. Frequently. the issue is that I have no patience for bullshit. Of course, what is bullshit to me is not to someone else.

 

[SweetErika]

You stole the words right out of my head, Breezy! And the crush is mutual, of course.

The immense guilt I'd feel if I didn't act with integrity is a huge deterrent for me, too. You bring up a very good point about the possible selfishness of that - I'd never really thought of it that way.

Right before Christmas, I received a package I'd ordered from an Amazon seller. I opened it up to wrap the gift for my mom, and discovered the seller had sent me an entire expensive Nutribullet set, not just the $30 replacement cups and lids I'd purchased. What I got had all of the parts I'd ordered in it, so I could have just taken those parts out, given them to my mom and kept the rest of it for myself. I'm guessing that's what the majority of Americans would have done, but I absolutely can't do such a thing. The guilt would eat away at my soul and keep me up at night, probably forever.

So, I contacted the seller right away, informed them of their mistake, and asked what they'd like to do (it was really heavy, so I wondered if shipping it back and forth would be more costly than the price difference). The guy thanked me for my honesty, sent my actual order to my mom and sent me a shipping label to send the big set back. I did, so I've been sleeping just fine. I guess I have a lot of trouble relating to people who would do otherwise in that type of situation; although, like you, I do tend to be more forgiving of others than myself when it comes to questions of morality and ethics.

LV, I'm totally with you, too! I'm all about analyzing and making what I feel to be the most moral/ethical decision for pretty much every situation. I often wonder if lying/cheating/stealing is a slippery slope; like if I could bring myself to start lying or stealing and get over the initial bad feelings, would I become more and more comfortable and feel less bad about that behavior with more time and practice? It'd be fascinating to hear from someone who went down that path, because it's not something I can imagine for myself well.

 

[silverwhisper]

i love this thread. :>

dilemmas are a daily occurrence. as thinking, responsible moral agents, it's literally the one choice we can all make to make the world a better place. therefore, i strive to make choices more consistent with my values/morals/ethics.

on the priority of values/morals/ethics: very high. i hold myself to a higher standard than others: i tend to accept situational ethics better from others. i also try to remember that i very often don't have the whole story.

unintentional violations: i generally try to address them immediately/quickly, insofar as redress is meaningful/possible and/or situation permits.

deceptions/self-deceptions: i don't generally perpetrate them on others, and am generally possessed of higher self-awareness than the norm but sure, i do too.

when time permits, i'll be back, gotta start my day...

ed

 

[Zeb_Carter]

There is a downside to having a too strict of a moral code...no friends. If your moral code is too high, then most of the people you meet won't meet that bar you have placed.

Too me, honesty is the tell all. If you are honest with me, then we don't have a problem. If you aren't and think I won't find out, then you have just struck out and I will no longer call you friend. The sad thing is that you probably won't even realize it, because your moral fiber is lacking to begin with. So how could you determine how I'm treating you is any different. Does this go against my moral code of honesty? A little, but I sometimes give a person the benefit of the doubt and they have surprised me. Not often, but sometimes.

One thing I have learned is never judge people. They will do that themselves in the long run. I don't care who you are, what you do. I have had friends that were prostitutes, drug dealers, thieves, and miscreants of all kinds, yet if they are honest with me, I will treat them no different than the cops I call friends. And as long as you commit no crime in my presence, then I can honestly say I you never have committed a crime in my presence, if asked.

Of course the problem is that most of this has taken a long time to figure out and only now in my twilight years am I at peace with myself.

 

[unregistered]

 

[bailadora]

I pretty much try to live a life that I want to see lived - and that means honesty, compassion, respect and integrity.

This is me in a nutshell. I find it difficult to relate to people who don't place as high a value on these characteristics, so those I consider friends share a similar perspective.

I've also returned to the cashier when I discovered I underpaid or wasn't charged for an item. To me it's a no brainer, and it wouldn't even cross my mind to not try to rectify the situation. Ask my kids how many times they heard me say, "Integrity is how you act when no one is looking."

As for lies (aside from social white ones), I just don't. Honestly, I don't have the skill for subterfuge, and trying to keep track of what I told to whom would be entirely too complicated. I am also apparently as transparent as glass, so if I did get a wild hair to suddenly start spouting lies, I'd quickly be found out.

For the most part I try to give others the benefit of the doubt, but one area where I find myself being highly judgmental is when I think someone is being rude. Courtesy is born of respect/concern for others, and it *really* grinds my gears when it is not demonstrated.

 

[Doog_kuron]

There is a downside to having a too strict of a moral code...no friends. If your moral code is too high, then most of the people you meet won't meet that bar you have placed.

Completely agree with this for reasons that...err...never mind

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I have no friends that I know of and am estranged from 5 sisters and all of my relatives. Ask me my opinion or what I know and brace yourself. People forgive and excuse anything but truth and honesty. My word is my bond. You cant trust liars and truth is the foundation of trust and trust is the basis for a relationship.

My Ma once said to me: YOU CAUSED ME MORE PROBLEMS THAN ALL MY CHILDREN COMBINED BUT YOURE THE ONLY ONE I CAN TRUST.

I think all the folks reading this are lying shit bags or psychotic. FIREBREEZE is their king.

 

[Doog_kuron]

I have no friends that I know of and am estranged from 5 sisters and all of my relatives. Ask me my opinion or what I know and brace yourself. People forgive and excuse anything but truth and honesty. My word is my bond. You cant trust liars and truth is the foundation of trust and trust is the basis for a relationship.

My Ma once said to me: YOU CAUSED ME MORE PROBLEMS THAN ALL MY CHILDREN COMBINED BUT YOURE THE ONLY ONE I CAN TRUST.

I think all the folks reading this are lying shit bags or psychotic. FIREBREEZE is their king.

Well, I have no friends and estranged from my family. On the plus side I probably am a lying bag of the fertilizer variety and most definitely psychotic. All hail Firebreeze!

 

[subwannabe]

I'm basically an honest person who if given the wrong change or not charged for something will speak up. But, I have my limits. If doing the right thing is going to make my life more miserable I really have to think about it. Last year I took a family member off our health insurance in the middle of the year and the company screwed it up it and it took about a month to straighten the mess out and we had no pharmacy coverage for a whole month until it was completely straightened out. Of course the fix was back dated but during that month I couldn't order and meds through insurance and we needed some. That really ticked me off and then I realized that they had screwed up again even more, giving me a credit for the dropped person for the entire year instead of just one month. I knew if I tried to straighten it out we would lose our pharmacy coverage again until the whole mess was cleared up so I decided to let it go. So far they haven't figured it out and I don't know if they ever will. I would have liked to have been honest but I don't want to go through that BS red tape hassle again. It was ridiculous.

There was an episode of the old Frasier TV show once where Frasier's father got and extra $20 from the ATM machine and tried to return it. He went through hassles several times until, in the end, the bank had given him $10,000 to settle the whole matter.

I realize this thread is probably about more evolved issues and dilema's than this response but thought I would add my two cents anyway.

 

[silverwhisper]

zeb quoth:
there is a downside to having a too strict of a moral code...no friends. if your moral code is too high, then most of the people you meet won't meet that bar you have placed.

i respectfully disagree. i think you're presuming that having a moral code or even a strict one is inextricably tied to judgmentalism.

ed

 

[Zeb_Carter]

i respectfully disagree. i think you're presuming that having a moral code or even a strict one is inextricably tied to judgmentalism.

ed

No, not necessarily. If my moral code prohibits me from associating with those whose moral code is lacking the fiber that mine has, there is no judgement.

My code doesn't allow for judgement just association. I won't go out of my way to avoid a person because of their lack of code, but I won't be all buddy-buddy with them either.

I will be polite, acknowledge them respectfully, yet neither will have any warmth or the warmth that is present when I say hello to my friends.

 

[Kalamain]

I've run into a handful of situation regarding values, morals and ethics recently, so I thought it might be an interesting topic to discuss here. I know this might be a touchy subject, but I'd like to keep the focus on conversation vs. judgments.

Some questions to get started, but feel free to pick and choose, ask your own questions, share experiences, etc.:

How often do you find yourself facing a moral or ethical dilemma?

Pretty much on a daily basis.

How much do you value morals and ethics, both pertaining to yourself and others? Do you have a stricter code for yourself, or are you more flexible? Do you choose friends/partners who place a similar amount of value on honesty, morals and ethics, or do you prefer diversity in this area? Jettison people in your life if you learn your values/morals/ethics are vastly different?

I'm very flexible. I have no real hard and fast rules.
I'd *LIKE* to live my life getting the maximum amount of milk for the minimum of "Moo"... But it rarely works that way.

Do you have a different standard for others than yourself? For instance, if someone else doesn't leave a great server a tip or cheats on a test, are you able to gloss over/justify their behavior more than if you had done the same thing, or vice versa?

I'm always harder on myself than on others.
I'm also a big one for not commenting but big on remembering slights and poor actions.

If you accidentally violate your own code (e.g. finding an item in your shopping cart after you've already walked out of the store, or realizing the cashier didn't charge you for something you should have paid [extra] for), how do you feel and act? Do you try to correct the mistake ASAP? Brush it off as a simple accident? Does/would it keep you up at night if you couldn't correct it?

It wouldn't keep me up... But I would try to rectify it.
When the minion was small she picked up a sweet and I never noticed when we got back to the car I saw she had it and asked her where she got it and she said that she had picked it up off the floor...
I didn't doubt her and didn't tell her off but we did go back into the shop and I did pay for it.

I despise this idea that I hear often with lazy parent telling their kids 'If you get caught you will get in trouble'. Its not a case of 'Getting caught' its a case of 'Its not right, so don't do it'

I'm sure it's accurate to say that we all lie, even if we limit ourselves to white lies. Where do you draw the line for yourself? Do you tend to 'fess up if you tell a lie that you don't believe will harm anyone at the time, then later find out it WAS harmful/problematic, or do you usually let it go and hope for the best?

Lying is a HUGE gray area.
A lie for the right reason (To protect an innocent) is perfectly fine. But you MUST be able to justify it. Lying under duress is also fine.

When you lie for your own gain then its wrong.

I tend not to lie... Not for the reason you may be thinking... I just can't keep it all straight in my head... I don't have much of a memory at the best of times and so recalling lies I told 2 weeks ago and keeping them straight is just not worth it.

Lies get found out sooner or later... Best to not bother with them and tell the truth from the start. Also... If you are found out as a liar people tend to not believe you later on.

 

[stickygirl]

I started to think about this and to try and think of dilemmas I've faced and I'm getting hung up on one. If I see someone drop a ten pound note I take delight in picking it up and running after them, because the value of seeing a happy face is worth more than money. If I see a ten pound note lying all on its own, I have no compunction but to pocket it: perhaps mulling over how I've lost money myself and hope that karma puts things right.

I'm acutely aware that both of these simply gratify my own selfish instinct. Do I want so much to be liked that I chase money-droppers? Is it in any way altruistic? *shrug* I just know that if it had been my money, that I would feel relieved and grateful to have someone hand it back to me.

When it comes to stores and shops the same sort of thing applies. If I feel an emotional obligation ie the girl at the check out has given me too much change or I know a store is small, then I'll speak up. Perhaps I'm morally guilty when it comes to supermarkets, but I know how they screw small suppliers, so I'm less inclined to help them out if they make a mistake.

As for cutting people off who don't match my own ethics - on a few occasions I have and will continue to do

This is such a big subject. Looking forward to following it

 

[silverwhisper]

zeb quoth:
i will be polite, acknowledge them respectfully, yet neither will have any warmth or the warmth that is present when i say hello to my friends.

i'm confused: didn't you say having a rigorous moral code precluded friendship?

ed

 

[Zeb_Carter]

i'm confused: didn't you say having a rigorous moral code precluded friendship?

ed

Yes, I did, but I didn't say I had one of those.

 

[Ubernaught]

I do differentiate between morals and ethics. Morality, for me, is a socially constructed system of set of beliefs. Ethics is about personal conduct (for me) that is based on values for the good of humanity, that may contradict social mores.

Very nicely worded.

That begs a question, open to all: If morality is based on a socially constructed set of beliefs, then wouldn't the increased rudeness and lack of courtesy and/or respect in society imply a lowering of morality?

When I see politicians and their lack of morality, ethics, and I am pretty sure souls, I wonder what we have to look forward to in the future? Perhaps they have always been like that but only in the somewhat recent years of advanced communication do we really get the big picture?

 

[Kalamain]

Very nicely worded.

That begs a question, open to all: If morality is based on a socially constructed set of beliefs, then wouldn't the increased rudeness and lack of courtesy and/or respect in society imply a lowering of morality?

When I see politicians and their lack of morality, ethics, and I am pretty sure souls, I wonder what we have to look forward to in the future? Perhaps they have always been like that but only in the somewhat recent years of advanced communication do we really get the big picture?

Not so much 'Lowering' of morality as a shift in morality. Or maybe a lowering of personal standards?

I do not think that Morality can be raise or lowered... Only shifted to fit the person holding it. But I think I am just being pedantic here.

I think that the "Deterioration of morals" has come about because there is very much an increase in the fact that, for example, you and I will never meet.
Politeness is often self defense. Piss me off in the street and you run a risk of getting beaten up. Piss me off on the Internet and I am very much limited on how I can respond to you. This emboldens some people to act in a certain way.

 

[silverwhisper]

zeb quoth:
...but i didn't say i had one of those.

fair enough.

i still don't think that there's quite as direct a correlation as i believe you're suggesting but that's a quibble.

ed

 

[SweetErika]

Very nicely worded.

That begs a question, open to all: If morality is based on a socially constructed set of beliefs, then wouldn't the increased rudeness and lack of courtesy and/or respect in society imply a lowering of morality?

When I see politicians and their lack of morality, ethics, and I am pretty sure souls, I wonder what we have to look forward to in the future? Perhaps they have always been like that but only in the somewhat recent years of advanced communication do we really get the big picture?

I think, as Kalamain noted, that the way we currently live often doesn't demand the same standards for courtesy and respect that were required for people to get along in society many generations ago. When you are forced to interact with the same group of people everyday (e.g., in a tribe, village, colony, small town), it serves you best to conduct yourself with courtesy and respect. Most of us don't have to do that anymore, so our values have changed to some extent.

Politicians get elected by selling themselves to many different people/groups, and have never been able to make good on all of the promises they make. I think this has always been the case, but the media we're constantly accessing/exposed to makes it far more apparent. Plus, we've allowed politics to turn into a big money game more than ever. Really, how many qualified, highly ethical people can stand the thought of running for more than a small seat, and being "bought" by wealthy donors, corporations and having my entire life dissected by the media?

 

[HeatherH4ever]

I'm sure it's accurate to say that we all lie, even if we limit ourselves to white lies. Where do you draw the line for yourself? Do you tend to 'fess up if you tell a lie that you don't believe will harm anyone at the time, then later find out it WAS harmful/problematic, or do you usually let it go and hope for the best?

I try to be honest. But if I walk out of a store and I see that I wasn't charged for something I keep my mouth shut and call it a "coupon."

 

[stickygirl]

I think, as Kalamain noted, that the way we currently live often doesn't demand the same standards for courtesy and respect that were required for people to get along in society many generations ago. When you are forced to interact with the same group of people everyday (e.g., in a tribe, village, colony, small town)...

... and yet the internet has made communications easier and I can chat with folks the other side of the world. But we all know courtesy grew from face-to-face interactions for which there is no substitute. I'm surprised etiquette and morals have lasted as long as they have. The law is being used to replace our sense of obligation and what is right or wrong - that old ass.

 

[Kalamain]

... and yet the internet has made communications easier and I can chat with folks the other side of the world. But we all know courtesy grew from face-to-face interactions for which there is no substitute. I'm surprised etiquette and morals have lasted as long as they have. The law is being used to replace our sense of obligation and what is right or wrong - that old ass.

Yes but if I were a business man who wants to sell something to you I would be polite to you. There could be no law for that.

Also. Laws change from place to place. Over here in the UK we have child work laws. In another country they may not. A business over here may well have morals and say 'We will not buy from you because you employ children'. This is Ethics at work.

You can also twist ethics... Look at the Hobby Lobby ruling in the US.

We still need morals, values and ethics. The law is not enough.