Rant: The dangerous goodguy

[StrangeLife]

Infidelity stories is a stable of the Loving Wives category - whether it be of the heartbreak/dealing-with-loss type or the btb type. A common trait of this type of story is of course the presence of a third party - the external force intruding into the relationship and driving a wedge between the protagonists for the purpose of sex, love, a relationship or whatever.

In other words, the badguy / badgirl.

It is common knowledge that the quality of a James Bond movie rests primarily on the badguy, and I believe this to be the case for any story that is built around a conflict involving an external instigator. Erotic infidelity stories included. After having read quite a few of these stories I have noticed that many writers are making a mistake that prevents them from fully exploiting the option for creating tension in the story....

They make the badguy too bad.

No, I haven't been drinking. Let me explain...

Lets say you are a husband whose wife is having an affair. What kind of lover is the toughest and most destructive opponent you can encounter? Is it a slimy serial seducer or a macho man who gets off on putting you down while having sex with your wife? Or maybe a black mailing boss? Nope.

The most dangerous foe by far is a goodguy.


Since we have debated superheroes lately, lets use Superman Returns as an example (and I am going to spoil it to shit because if you haven't watched it yet, you deserve that!). The man of steel finds that Lois has stepped out with another man - played by Roy Marsden - who is a nice guy. He is no wimp, he is responsible, they have a child together (he thinks), his looks are on par with Superman's and he is not even being an ass towards Clark Kent. Hell, the guys name is "White"... Richard white... Dick White... (No! I'm not saying it! That'd be too easy. )

Superman might be the strongest creature in the universe, but he has no chance against that guy. Had Lois teamed up with Lex Luthor it would have been a breeze for him, but against Dick White's goodguy-powers even the mighty Kryptonian stands powerless. Of course he does have a chance during the movie to take out the sucker, but he is Superman. He could also go to the court and demand a DNA test on the boy, but again he is Superman. So he doesn't fight dirty, despite the fact that Lois is effectively being a serious bitch as far as the kid is concerned.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hS0IUcGIMRY/UYz4Pc_jNXI/AAAAAAAAFNg/1skTmfa8q_E/s1600/Superman-Returns-superman-returns-24776222-720-304.jpg



A second superhero-example is The Dark Night. The new dynamic district attorney Harvey Dent - played by Aaron "The Chin" Eckhart - is putting the moves on Batman's love interest, Rachel Dawes, and is succeeding in his efforts. Again Batman is powerless because Harvey Dent is a goodguy - idealistic, smart, good-looking, wealthy and genuinely cares for Rachel and is prepared to make a serious commitment to her involving kids and family. To make matters worse Batman likes the guy a lot and that feeling is mutual... at least at first. If Rachel had hooked up with the Joker it would have been a breeze for the caped crusader, but against the massive ethos of Harvey Dent he is powerless. Because the brutal truth is that Harvey is a superior choice for Rachel compared to Batman, and she knows it. So Batman is irrevocably friend-zoned.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120816101935/dcmovies/images/e/ef/Rachel_Dawes_and_Harvey_Dent.jpg




The impulse for penning this rant came after reading Magicians latest story Lunch Date.

And if you are reading this Magician, please don't take this as me criticizing your story. You are a fine writer and I especially respect the way you aren't afraid of concluding your tales with a reconciliation, in acceptance of the fact that people are flawed and that everybody can have a weak moment and fall to temptation. It makes your characters feel a lot more real than many of the btb writers. I am simply using it to illustrate a common point. And I am not spoiling your story either, since your extensive foreword leaves no doubt about where the plot goes.

But the story does feature an unlikeable and thus weak antagonist. An antagonist who is no match for the husband once the plot is revealed to him. There is basically no serious challenge for the protagonist and the only losing scenario for him would have been to do nothing... and even that would likely have been a win in the end. So there was no real danger or tension. His marriage was never in any serious peril. The badguy was like an ant crossing his path, that he could step on anyway he wanted and at any time he chose.

But what if the badguy had not been a sleaze ball?

What if he had been genuinely in love with the protagonists wife? A handsome man with a good career, a winning personality, a set of values and interests that matched wifey's and a superior option in any way compared to hubby? A Dick White or a Harvey Dent? Somebody that the protagonist might even have liked, if they didn't happen to be rivals? A guy who felt bad about falling for a married woman, but powerless to hide his feelings?

Now that would have been a serious challenge for the protagonist where the outcome would have been anything but given. There would have been more tension, a clear sense of peril and the pay-off by a positive conclusion would be equally larger.

So what am I saying with all this? Well, the gist of it all is, that if you write infidelity stories don't make your badguys "too bad". It might increase the ethos and justification of the protagonist, but it also drains the story of danger and tension, because a badguy in this type of story is in reality weaker the badder you make him. And as said previously, the quality of the badguy decides the quality of the story.

* rant off * Ahhh, now I feel better...

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

Yeah yeah it's of course true what you are saying ON THE LEVEL OF REALITY... But people want fiction - something that makes their own lives (the bad parts) palatable without the need to actually confront reality at all; and that's why many writers make bad guys 'bad.' Or 'too' bad.

 

[StrangeLife]

Yeah yeah it's of course true what you are saying ON THE LEVEL OF REALITY... But people want fiction - something that makes their own lives (the bad parts) palatable without the need to actually confront reality at all; and that's why many writers make bad guys 'bad.' Or 'too' bad.

But if they want to read a story about a husband who goes up against a threat to his marriage and emerges victoriously, won't it be a more satisfying victory if the antagonist is a serious challenge?

I mean, if you were to punch out a girl scout trying to sell you cookies, you would hardly feel as victoriously as if you had just emerged from a fight where you ripped a leg of Chuck Norris and used it for beating Dwyane "The Rock" Johnson to a pulp, right?

 

[Learin]

I agree.


But do you think an amateur writer can pull that off?

Think about it. There's going to be a lot of emotional conflict, dilemma etcetera etcetera. That is one thing that I really find hard to write, without making it a yawner and boring away readers. Showing it on the screen is a less daunting task, as compared to penning your thoughts into the pages, IMHO.


No doubt, there are some great authors out here, but not everyone is on the same level.

 

[StrangeLife]

I agree.


But do you think an amateur writer can pull that off?

Think about it. There's going to be a lot of emotional conflict, dilemma etcetera etcetera. That is one thing that I really find hard to write, without making it a yawner and boring away readers. Showing it on the screen is a less daunting task, as compared to penning your thoughts into the pages, IMHO.


No doubt, there are some great authors out here, but not everyone is on the same level.

Very true - a story that challenges the protagonist challenges the writer as well. The problem is, like you say, that it will require more creativity in order to create a path to a positive outcome for the protagonist, and the temptation for the writer to "cheat" and thus fall into the dark pit of plot-driven story telling will invariably increase. But isn't it more fun to write that kind of story? And I don't think it requires that much more skill to write a story like that in the proper way. Only a little more care when plotting the story, and maybe some more effort in the design of the characters, so you have their needs and motivations clearly mapped-out while writing them.

If we look at the story I used as an example, it wouldn't require much change in order to give the protagonist a serious run for his money - the writer could easily pull it off. However it would require the husband to fight dirty and thus turn some of the black & white into grey. In other words, erode some of the ethos of the protagonist.

And this raises another interesting question: If the lover is a goodguy and you defeat him, what does that make you?

So yeah - it does complicate things a little and muddies the waters, but I think the added tension and turmoil is worth it...

 

[Learin]

Very true - a story that challenges the protagonist challenges the writer as well. The problem is, like you say, that it will require more creativity in order to create a path to a positive outcome for the protagonist, and the temptation for the writer to "cheat" and thus fall into the dark pit of plot-driven story telling will invariably increase. But isn't it more fun to write that kind of story? And I don't think it requires that much more skill to write a story like that in the proper way. Only a little more care when plotting the story, and maybe some more effort in the design of the characters, so you have their needs and motivations clearly mapped-out while writing them.

I'm not saying that it's THAT difficult, but it'll require some skill.

If we look at the story I used as an example, it wouldn't require much change in order to give the protagonist a serious run for his money - the writer could easily pull it off. However it would require the husband to fight dirty and thus turn some of the black & white into grey. In other words, erode some of the ethos of the protagonist.

And this raises another interesting question: If the lover is a goodguy and you defeat him, what does that make you?

So yeah - it does complicate things a little and muddies the waters, but I think the added tension and turmoil is worth it...

Yes, I agree. The end product would be worth it. For example, look at the movies that you mentioned earlier. They were some of the best ones I have seen coming out of Hollywood (Except Superman Returns, I didn't like it that much ).

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

An honest to god good guy is impossible and doesn't exist. Females see thru them and never trust them for a minute. She wants a tiger on a leash. That is, a socialize psychopath who isn't narcissistic. Or, as Florence King says: WE LIKE OUR MEN A LITTLE CRAZY AND A LITTLE RELIGIOUS.

 

[Hypoxia]

The interloper as a serious challenge makes drama. The interloper as a stereotypical bad guy makes melodrama. Snidely Whiplash twirls his black moustache and cackles whilst tying Nell to the bedframe as the audience boos and awaits the entrance of the dashing faithful hero who pounds Snidley and punishes Nell for being sloppy with the wrist-ties, yada yada.

BTB or BTBATB (burn the bitch AND the bastard) demand melodrama. I've only seen a couple LW cheat tales where hubby wins back his love by being nicer than the bull -- but, I haven't read all of LW so maybe I missed others of that dramatic ilk. BURN stories must be easier to write.

 

[lovecraft68]

Everyone has an agenda, especially good guys.

MY wife had=I stress had- a male friend she met where she works maybe three years after we were married. My polar opposite, well educated, pretty boy, family had money and allegedly very spiritual(which my wife is believe it or not and still lives with me)

He was a nice guy-according to his act and what everyone who knew him thought of him, isn't he just the nicest guy! Yeah he was pretty much Eddie Haskel is what he was.

Well they became good friends and he was single so he would come for dinner once in awhile and long story short he developed a thing for her and would spend all his time telling her about my faults, how I'm not good enough for her she deserves better etc...etc...

When it got to the point he remarked to her "with his upbringing and his attitude, I know he hits you, you don't have ot put up with that....and he went and told one of her other friends he thought I hit her.

That earned him almost getting hit by her and she told him to fuck off.

Gotta watch out for those nice people. Everyone has an agenda; their own.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Everyone has an agenda, especially good guys.

MY wife had=I stress had- a male friend she met where she works maybe three years after we were married. My polar opposite, well educated, pretty boy, family had money and allegedly very spiritual(which my wife is believe it or not and still lives with me)

He was a nice guy-according to his act and what everyone who knew him thought of him, isn't he just the nicest guy! Yeah he was pretty much Eddie Haskel is what he was.

Well they became good friends and he was single so he would come for dinner once in awhile and long story short he developed a thing for her and would spend all his time telling her about my faults, how I'm not good enough for her she deserves better etc...etc...

When it got to the point he remarked to her "with his upbringing and his attitude, I know he hits you, you don't have ot put up with that....and he went and told one of her other friends he thought I hit her.

That earned him almost getting hit by her and she told him to fuck off.

Gotta watch out for those nice people. Everyone has an agenda; their own.

My oldest daughter dated a guy like that. All the gals loved Tom. I hated him and had not a bit of information to support my animosity. But he eventually got caught stealing money from the cash drawers of the kids he managed at McDonalds.

 

[StrangeLife]

An honest to god good guy is impossible and doesn't exist. Females see thru them and never trust them for a minute. She wants a tiger on a leash. That is, a socialize psychopath who isn't narcissistic. Or, as Florence King says: WE LIKE OUR MEN A LITTLE CRAZY AND A LITTLE RELIGIOUS.

I can't fault your logic, but I was referring to the lover being a goodguy in the sense that he is willing to cater to the wife's needs (and they might of course be BDMS or church related... or both... simultaneously). But even a good guy expects to get something back - a reward for being "good" - so in that sense you are correct. A truly unselfish goodguy doesn't exist.

The interloper as a serious challenge makes drama. The interloper as a stereotypical bad guy makes melodrama. Snidely Whiplash twirls his black moustache and cackles whilst tying Nell to the bedframe as the audience boos and awaits the entrance of the dashing faithful hero who pounds Snidley and punishes Nell for being sloppy with the wrist-ties, yada yada.

BTB or BTBATB (burn the bitch AND the bastard) demand melodrama. I've only seen a couple LW cheat tales where hubby wins back his love by being nicer than the bull -- but, I haven't read all of LW so maybe I missed others of that dramatic ilk. BURN stories must be easier to write.

You misunderstand me I think. I didn't say that the husband needed to be nice. In fact, if you write a story where hubby is facing a lover who is superior in all areas, the only viable winning scenario might well be to have him fight dirty.

I forgot who wrote it or what the title is, but I recall a Lit-story where a husband discovered that his wife had a serious affair with a nice guy. He had a clear feeling that he was losing ground fast, so he killed the lover and dumped the body near the border to Mexico. The lover was a Mexican immigrant so he "disappeared" among the many illegals that perish in the area. The wife was sad and figured that her lover had abandoned her, but hubby was ready with comfort so she got over it. One of the reasons why I remember that story so well, is that it breaks with the stereotypical picture of the lover as a sleazy no-good cocksman. Hubby, on the other hand, is not a goodguy, and not only commits a murder for his own selfish reasons, but disposes of the body in a way so that the victims reputation is destroyed too. We still root for hubby though, because despite the fact that the lover was a goodguy he was also an interloper and in the process of destroying a marriage and breaking up a family. So in the end hubby came across as a decisive person who did what he had to do in order to save his family. He defeated a nice guy, by being bad.

And yes - I have also read stories where hubby won by being nice (and simultaneously sabotaging the lover as much as possible). That particular story had the husband going totally Romeo on his wife - a strategy which gradually made her turn away from the lover, who in turn seemed to be haunted by bad luck on all their dates. The story is a btb story and in the end hubby dumps his wife anyway. He only stayed until he was certain of the destruction of the relations that had destroyed his marriage.... and bought enough time to secure a few assets.

So there are Lit authors who have successfully explored the land of the goodguy interloper and have come up with ways for hubby to defeat him. It doesn't have to be melodrama in order to work...

 

[StrangeLife]

Well they became good friends and he was single so he would come for dinner once in awhile and long story short he developed a thing for her and would spend all his time telling her about my faults, how I'm not good enough for her she deserves better etc...etc...

How did you find out? Usually that kind of persons are careful of what they say to your face....

 

[Hypoxia]

So there are Lit authors who have successfully explored the land of the goodguy interloper and have come up with ways for hubby to defeat him. It doesn't have to be melodrama in order to work...

I think I was saying that many LW tales are melodramas in that hubby and the bull are painted in good/bad terms. I'll admit to a brain fog re: hubby as nefarious responder, and yes, I've read a couple of those stories. I'm hopefully suggesting that melodramas with good/bad stereotypes are popular but not sufficient. I'll use the stereotypes satirically 'cause that's what I do with cartoon material, try to squeeze it into snarky strokers.

 

[49greg]

You guys, all of you, brought up some really good points, things a hack/amateur like me has never thought out.

Thanks. A really good thread.

 

[Handley_Page]

You guys, all of you, brought up some really good points, things a hack/amateur like me has never thought out.

Thanks. A really good thread.

Here Here

 

[lovecraft68]

How did you find out? Usually that kind of persons are careful of what they say to your face....

Oh, he didn't say it to me, my wife eventually told me about it. We have no secrets and I'm beyond any of that "Oh, yeah I'll kick his ass, crap"

She said she blew it off at first, then when he got too carried away she told him to shove it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

One of these days I need to write a story where Guy A spends half a page conclusively proving that he's a better person than Guy B, and then B's girlfriend shrugs and says "so what? I'm not your good-conduct prize, you don't get to collect ten good deeds and then redeem them for a reward fuck".

 

[lovecraft68]

One of these days I need to write a story where Guy A spends half a page conclusively proving that he's a better person than Guy B, and then B's girlfriend shrugs and says "so what? I'm not your good-conduct prize, you don't get to collect ten good deeds and then redeem them for a reward fuck".

Priceless moment and one my wife-who has a miss goody two shoes rep-will never allowed to live down

My company Christmas party and she is hammered, very out of character for her, usually that's me.

A couple of guys were busting her balls about why she's with me because I'm such a dink she says, "really want to know?"

"Because he writes porn and he's good with his tongue. So who gives a fuck if he's rude?"

They almost hit the damn floor and when it dawned on her what she'd blurted out she ended up redder than her dress.

She then of course told me later she was just trying to stroke my ego.

 

[jomar]

Everyone has an axe to grind.

 

[3113]

LW is about taking down the wife

It is a good and correct rant, but not if we're talking LW stories. In that instance, you're working from a faculty premise. By and large, LW stories are not about making the hero more of a hero because he out-wits and "out-good's" a guy who is his equal or superior. If they were, they'd have what you want them to have—a good guy in competition with our hero, not a sleaze.

But the point of LW stories, by and large, is to bring down the wife. If she picked a good guy, then our protagonist would have to say, "Well, she's got good judgement in men, he's going to treat her right and take care of her; I can't really fault her for picking him over me; maybe this guy is more right for her...." Which, by the way, is EXACTLY what you see the protagonists in the two movies you mentioned think. The woman is not brought down by her choice. She remains worthy, forgiven, maybe even elevated higher.

But that's not the aim in most LW stories, is it? The aim is, instead to say, "That bitch chose HIM over me? That not only makes her unworthy of me (and deserving of her fate), but is also an insult to me that must be redressed. How dare she pick someone so low." It's rather like some wife of the sultan ran off with a commoner. It insults the sultan and must be avenged.

The choice of "sleaze" guy over "good guy" also reflect the typical, furious refrain of so many guys likely reading these stories: "Why did she pick the bad boy over me! I was a good guy but she went for the sleaze instead!" Thus, these stories are ways for guys to take revenge on a girl of their desire for picking the bad boy over them, in spite of how "nice" they imagined they'd been, how much more worthy they were of her.

 

[lovecraft68]

It is a good and correct rant, but not if we're talking LW stories. In that instance, you're working from a faculty premise. By and large, LW stories are not about making the hero more of a hero because he out-wits and "out-good's" a guy who is his equal or superior. If they were, they'd have what you want them to have—a good guy in competition with our hero, not a sleaze.

But the point of LW stories, by and large, is to bring down the wife. If she picked a good guy, then our protagonist would have to say, "Well, she's got good judgement in men, he's going to treat her right and take care of her; I can't really fault her for picking him over me; maybe this guy is more right for her...." Which, by the way, is EXACTLY what you see the protagonists in the two movies you mentioned think. The woman is not brought down by her choice. She remains worthy, forgiven, maybe even elevated higher.

But that's not the aim in most LW stories, is it? The aim is, instead to say, "That bitch chose HIM over me? That not only makes her unworthy of me (and deserving of her fate), but is also an insult to me that must be redressed. How dare she pick someone so low." It's rather like some wife of the sultan ran off with a commoner. It insults the sultan and must be avenged.

The choice of "sleaze" guy over "good guy" also reflect the typical, furious refrain of so many guys likely reading these stories: "Why did she pick the bad boy over me! I was a good guy but she went for the sleaze instead!" Thus, these stories are ways for guys to take revenge on a girl of their desire for picking the bad boy over them, in spite of how "nice" they imagined they'd been, how much more worthy they were of her.

The point of most LW stories is to hurt women period, the cheating gives the sadistic pigs an excuse to justify it.

The point of LW is for these hate filled cowards to jerk off to abuse the kind they would probably inflict if they could. That's the point, pure and simple.

I've met a couple of their type in R/L. Very quick conversations that ended abruptly.

Category is a cesspool, but a well read one which is why lately laurel has gone out of her way to appease the scum there.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

It is a good and correct rant, but not if we're talking LW stories. In that instance, you're working from a faculty premise. By and large, LW stories are not about making the hero more of a hero because he out-wits and "out-good's" a guy who is his equal or superior. If they were, they'd have what you want them to have—a good guy in competition with our hero, not a sleaze.

But the point of LW stories, by and large, is to bring down the wife. If she picked a good guy, then our protagonist would have to say, "Well, she's got good judgement in men, he's going to treat her right and take care of her; I can't really fault her for picking him over me; maybe this guy is more right for her...." Which, by the way, is EXACTLY what you see the protagonists in the two movies you mentioned think. The woman is not brought down by her choice. She remains worthy, forgiven, maybe even elevated higher.

But that's not the aim in most LW stories, is it? The aim is, instead to say, "That bitch chose HIM over me? That not only makes her unworthy of me (and deserving of her fate), but is also an insult to me that must be redressed. How dare she pick someone so low." It's rather like some wife of the sultan ran off with a commoner. It insults the sultan and must be avenged.

The choice of "sleaze" guy over "good guy" also reflect the typical, furious refrain of so many guys likely reading these stories: "Why did she pick the bad boy over me! I was a good guy but she went for the sleaze instead!" Thus, these stories are ways for guys to take revenge on a girl of their desire for picking the bad boy over them, in spite of how "nice" they imagined they'd been, how much more worthy they were of her.

Well, it's the anti-dote to the "Nice Guys Finish Last" idea in that sense, but it's often carried too far, to unrealistic depths, until you wonder what just what was so nice about the guy that made him so superior, anyway.

Revenge is one thing. The kind of "scorched earth" policy that many of the LW trolls/wingnuts want is something truly reptilian. I don't have a problem with BTB (bitch or bastard) in principle, and some stories like that are very good, but what I've seen in some cases turn my stomach. Severed genitals, people framed for crimes that they didn't commit, murder for hire, etc. There is a mentality attached to this that is too extreme for mention without some kind of "viewer's discretion advised" warning.

So, this other take on it would make an interesting contrast, and I don't have a problem with it being on Lit, but I must warn as you say that there will be serious one-bombing and troll asshattery. These will come from the sort who think that man and woman "own" each other, when as George Michael rightly observed....

"All we have to see is that I don't belong to you and you don't belong to me."

 

[3113]

The point of most LW stories is to hurt women period, the cheating gives the sadistic pigs an excuse to justify it.

My point exactly. It's the same way that a lot of stories here have paper-thin plots just to get to the sex. The cheating is just a way to get to what they really want to do/read about. But it satisfies them more and fits their view of women if that cheating includes picking a bad guy over a good guy.

And yes, I agree it's a cesspool.

Well, it's the anti-dote to the "Nice Guys Finish Last" idea in that sense, but it's often carried too far, to unrealistic depths, until you wonder what just what was so nice about the guy that made him so superior, anyway.

Well, as I pointed out to Lovecraft, we will grant that it's one of those lame excuses used to get to what they really want to read about. Very like a lot of the stories here have just enough story to get them to the sex. It's that not-so-plausable deniability thing. "I'm not reading porn, it's a story with sex..." and in this case, "It's a story about a woman who deserves this fate because she abused a good guy..." rather than the truth "I get off on reading about doing such things to women."

 

[49greg]

Good point in the OP. The good guy as the guy who steals the wife.

I started a story the other night when I first read this post. I strayed and the good guy just wasn't that good when I finished the outline.

I found two solutions, not say there aren't more.

1. The wife is being bullied or neglected by her husband and the interloper who brings her happiness and escape is a good guy. Sorry.

2. Damn, I had a great solution that was superior to number one. But I've been sucking down cognac and soda all evening. Forgot it. Damn damn damn.

 

[desertslave]

Good point in the OP. The good guy as the guy who steals the wife.

I started a story the other night when I first read this post. I strayed and the good guy just wasn't that good when I finished the outline.

I found two solutions, not say there aren't more.

1. The wife is being bullied or neglected by her husband and the interloper who brings her happiness and escape is a good guy. Sorry.

2. Damn, I had a great solution that was superior to number one. But I've been sucking down cognac and soda all evening. Forgot it. Damn damn damn.

Version 1 would be my autobiography. I was married to a mercurial, verbally abusive, compulsive liar. I wasn't perfect, either, but my greatest flaw was being naive enough to believe him, and cowardly enough not to call him on things when the doubts became too obvious to ignore. Enter the 'interloper' who was also human, imperfect, but in much more reasonable ways than my now-ex. The ex tried a number of ways to guilt/blackmail me into staying, but in the end those actions made his bad side much more obvious to me and made it much easier to leave. Unlike the usual btb, though, I thrived, my kids thrived, and my ex stumbled around for several years (and failed relationships) because he wouldn't or couldn't change. Eventually he remarried. I felt like I should send a sympathy card to the new wife.

Here's what I wonder about the LW category and outlook...what about the obverse? The faithful, truly loving wife with the zipper-impaired husband? Is it just a 'boys will be boys' club or are there (should there be) consequences for the female intruder and husband in the same measure? (I have a feeling it wouldn't fly in LW simply because it IS a self-righteous boys club over there.)