Characterization of men

[Serafina1210]

I find men hard to write. It seems to me that mine have been coming out sort of colorless, without a lot of personality. I get the sense that my male readers aren’t identifying with the men a whole lot, beyond vicariously fucking my women (though maybe that’s all they want).

My current story is something of a disaster (AKA “learning experience”). Part of the problem, I suspect (certainly not the whole problem), is the male lead. He’s supposed to be a “Dominant,” but he’s young (about 23), inexperienced, and completely unable to resist a pretty woman who crooks a finger in his direction. My conniving anti-heroine finds him easy to manipulate. He’s drawn some negative comment from (I think) male readers, who seem offended by his stupidity. I myself don’t think he’s stupid—but women are flinging themselves at him for reasons that don’t really have all that much to do with him, and how many young men could keep their wits about them if that were happening to them?

So here’s one topic for discussion. What do you do to make your men interesting—besides make them handsome rugged square-jawed muscular well hung? Take an interest in their business dealings? Give them hobbies? Make them empathetic? Quirky?

And here’s topic number two. Do you find that you can’t get away on Lit with some male types that would be fine in other kinds of fiction? I’d rather leave Loving Wives out of the discussion as a special case—but for example, in a BDSM tale, what kind of imperfection can you get away with in the depiction of a male Dominant?

 

[patientlee]

I find men hard to write. It seems to me that mine have been coming out sort of colorless, without a lot of personality. I get the sense that my male readers aren’t identifying with the men a whole lot, beyond vicariously fucking my women (though maybe that’s all they want).

My current story is something of a disaster (AKA “learning experience”). Part of the problem, I suspect (certainly not the whole problem), is the male lead. He’s supposed to be a “Dominant,” but he’s young (about 23), inexperienced, and completely unable to resist a pretty woman who crooks a finger in his direction. My conniving anti-heroine finds him easy to manipulate. He’s drawn some negative comment from (I think) male readers, who seem offended by his stupidity. I myself don’t think he’s stupid—but women are flinging themselves at him for reasons that don’t really have all that much to do with him, and how many young men could keep their wits about them if that were happening to them?

So here’s one topic for discussion. What do you do to make your men interesting—besides make them handsome rugged square-jawed muscular well hung? Take an interest in their business dealings? Give them hobbies? Make them empathetic? Quirky?

And here’s topic number two. Do you find that you can’t get away on Lit with some male types that would be fine in other kinds of fiction? I’d rather leave Loving Wives out of the discussion as a special case—but for example, in a BDSM tale, what kind of imperfection can you get away with in the depiction of a male Dominant?

Interesting topic. I have no idea what I do. I just kind of fling it all against the wall and hope it sticks. I think.

Not a helpful answer. I'll think about it after I drink some coffee.

 

[PennLady]

Generally speaking, I try to write my characters as people first, then worry about the gender. But often I'll get ideas like what if a woman with X characteristic meets a guy with Y aspect? And I try to remember that men and woman do have differences and approach things differently.

It sounds like the story you're writing isn't the one you set out to do, and that's fine. But it doesn't seem to me that you can have a Dominant male who basically can't control his reaction to pretty women. Sounds like you need to make him older and more experienced, and that would solve a lot. Or, you need to change the type of 23yo he is. He can be experienced, even at that age, and he doesn't have to be dumb and immature.

I'm trying to think of how I handle (so to speak) the guys in my story. I do give them some back story, even if just in my mind, because that informs how they act and react in the story.

For King's Bay, which is first-person from the guy's POV, he'd just gotten laid off and was itching for a change of scenery, so he went out to California. Not everyone would do that in that situation. In Nothing Gets Through (one of my hockey stories), the lead guy comes from a bad family situation, which affects how he relates to people as an adult. In Rhythm and the Blue Lie (another hockey story), the male lead comes from a happier family, but he's got himself set on the idea of no serious relationships until after he retires. The first part means he has a hard time understanding the lead female's strained relationship with her family, and the second means he has to reconsider things when he gets serious with her.

There's no one way to do this, of course, for any character. Everyone constructs them in their own way.

But if you want a 23yo dominant, I think you need to consider, for yourself, how he got that way. Did his parents drum it into him that you have to be in charge, or you're nothing? And that carries over into sex? Is that how he was introduced to sex? Did he maybe feel out of control in his life, and this is how he asserts control?

Or, write a different story with this guy, and then write another. Either way, good luck.

 

[karaline]

off the top of my head, a past, possibly a tricky or traumatic past. but i'll give it some thought. I think its a fascinating and important issue

 

[lovecraft68]

wrong thread....

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I use my psychological training to design people but most writers aren't skilled at assessing people, so the next best thing is to read books featuring the sort of people youre after. John LeCarre, Elmore Leonard, George V. Higgins, Tolstoy, and Steinbeck come to mind first. Shakespeare, too.

People organize themselves around their strongest sensual traits: that is, theyre physical, visual, aural, and kinesthetic (they have strong gut reactions to experience). A very few rely on taste, smell, and touch.

However you assemble them the traits must be congruent and complementary, otherwise you get a klutz.

Back in the old days the government had a test battery that identified the right people for the right jobs. It was called the General Aptitude Test Battery. Think round blocks in square hole puzzles. A dozen simple tests told the story about people...cigar makers and brain surgeons have identical skill sets tho the brain surgeon is generally smarter. My test results qualified me for sheet metal work, landscape architect, petroleum engineer, and research physician. On the other hand I'd fail as a dentist, brain surgeon, diamond cutter as I have no dexterity in my hands or fingers. Amazon may have used copies of the old GATB reference manuals. The government terminated the tests when too many people qualified for janitorial work and unskilled farm labor.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

http://www.assess.nelson.com/group/gp-gatb.html

Ah! Canada still uses it!

 

[Serafina1210]

Thanks for the replies so far. I should mention that my queries weren't about the man in my current story, whom I'm stuck with (it's a series, about two-thirds posted), but general.

Interesting points, PennLady. In fact, the question in my story has increasingly become whether my 23-yr-old Dominant is actually a Dominant at all--perhaps also whether he belongs in a BDSM story.

I tend to be a bit impatient about my characters' pasts, writing quick sketches at most. This is because I've always found myself skipping those parts of magazine/newspaper profile articles. I find the part about a subject's present to be the most compelling.

The man I've drawn whom readers seemed to like best had no past, but just a present. He was an idealized Dominant--handsome, rugged, etc. That's all that defined him, and yet readers liked him. When I made him mess up and lose the girl, they wanted them to get back together. I have no idea what made him work as a character.

I wish I could take that test, James. Looks like you've got to be a psychologist to get your hands on it.

 

[lovecraft68]

Thanks for the replies so far. I should mention that my queries weren't about the man in my current story, whom I'm stuck with (it's a series, about two-thirds posted), but general.

Interesting points, PennLady. In fact, the question in my story has increasingly become whether my 23-yr-old Dominant is actually a Dominant at all--perhaps also whether he belongs in a BDSM story.

I tend to be a bit impatient about my characters' pasts, writing quick sketches at most. This is because I've always found myself skipping those parts of magazine/newspaper profile articles. I find the part about a subject's present to be the most compelling.

The man I've drawn whom readers seemed to like best had no past, but just a present. He was an idealized Dominant--handsome, rugged, etc. That's all that defined him, and yet readers liked him. When I made him mess up and lose the girl, they wanted them to get back together. I have no idea what made him work as a character.

I wish I could take that test, James. Looks like you've got to be a psychologist to get your hands on it.

The fact he lost the girl made him work. Cut into his aura, made him human, made him relate-able, people, well some anyway, are tired of perfect specimens who never screw up.

Another good feature was if he lost her that meant he pissed her off and she walked on him which breaks the helpless female trope that annoys the shit out of me.

 

[Hypoxia]

Write people as people -- living people with differences and similarities. IMHO the strongest characters are based on real, known people. Personal knowledge is best, but much fanfic is based on players people FEEL they know, even though they've never met. Most of my players are more-or-less known and real. (Sometimes I split them in two, or merge a few into one.) I know *some* of their backgrounds, but never enough, so they always do surprising stuff -- I avoid stereotypes except for bit players.

There's your key. Visualize the guy in front of you as someone you know. Change him just enough to make him unique for the story -- unless you really DO want a stereotypical stock character. I'll take my dyslexic postmaster outdoorsman cousin and his manipulative spoiled sex-crazed sister and mold them into a few similar-but-different players in various of my tales. I know some of their flaws but can discover more as I write. I know somewhat how they'll act and react, but they'll always surprise me. They're alive! They're alive!

 

[PennLady]

Interesting points, PennLady. In fact, the question in my story has increasingly become whether my 23-yr-old Dominant is actually a Dominant at all--perhaps also whether he belongs in a BDSM story.

I tend to be a bit impatient about my characters' pasts, writing quick sketches at most. This is because I've always found myself skipping those parts of magazine/newspaper profile articles. I find the part about a subject's present to be the most compelling.

There's nothing wrong with a character who's mostly in the present, except I'd say that their past had to inform the way they act in the present. Which again is not to say you need to have a whole separate story for him. But even in your quick sketch, there are probably things that you imagine which would form the character.

 

[Serafina1210]

The fact he lost the girl made him work. Cut into his aura, made him human, made him relate-able, people, well some anyway, are tired of perfect specimens who never screw up.

Another good feature was if he lost her that meant he pissed her off and she walked on him which breaks the helpless female trope that annoys the shit out of me.

Alas, I was pretty much done with him once he'd lost the girl. Probably a mistake, but in the distant past now. He dumped her, actually, but when he figured out how he'd screwed up she wouldn't have him back.

Thing is, for him I mainly just put in things I found attractive. Made him about thirty-five (a nice age), well dressed, fashionably groomed, something of a sadist (this was BDSM, so I mean that in a nice way). Then added some things I didn't like so much--insisting on passivity as well as submission, hung up on love without quite understanding it--that bit set him up for his fall.

My 23-yr-old, on the other hand, was based on a young man I knew for a while (no, not THAT way!).

 

[Serafina1210]

There's nothing wrong with a character who's mostly in the present, except I'd say that their past had to inform the way they act in the present. Which again is not to say you need to have a whole separate story for him. But even in your quick sketch, there are probably things that you imagine which would form the character.

True, I think. A "past," for my characters who have one, tends to be one or more carefully chosen details rather than a whole story (if there's a whole story, it's likely to be the kind of thing you can't tell on this site, so it's implied instead).

The idea is to give an impression of a past without spending a lot of time on it, just as you frequently want to give an impression of unexpressed thoughts and the like.

 

[Serafina1210]

Write people as people -- living people with differences and similarities. IMHO the strongest characters are based on real, known people. Personal knowledge is best, but much fanfic is based on players people FEEL they know, even though they've never met. Most of my players are more-or-less known and real. (Sometimes I split them in two, or merge a few into one.) I know *some* of their backgrounds, but never enough, so they always do surprising stuff -- I avoid stereotypes except for bit players.

There's your key. Visualize the guy in front of you as someone you know. Change him just enough to make him unique for the story -- unless you really DO want a stereotypical stock character. I'll take my dyslexic postmaster outdoorsman cousin and his manipulative spoiled sex-crazed sister and mold them into a few similar-but-different players in various of my tales. I know some of their flaws but can discover more as I write. I know somewhat how they'll act and react, but they'll always surprise me. They're alive! They're alive!

"Write people as people" seems to me easier to say than to do. I've sometimes based characters on people I know, and I've sometimes just made them up. To judge from my own reactions to them, and those of my readers, my success rate is about the same for each group. (Better for the women than for the men, which is why I started this thread!)

To begin by modeling characters on living people is to get a head start. But keeping them alive on the page requires care and skill.

 

[RoyceConnors]

I like to build my male characters a piece at a time throughout the story. I use his actions and the reasoning and responses that happen to show him on the inside. In both Redwood Nine and Blood of the Clans, I had to create numerous male characters and create personalities and traits for most of them and bring an aspect of reality to them. No one is perfect in RL, so I never make my characters perfect, in looks or personalities.

Every person has flaws and those flaws are key to how you build your character's actions and reasoning to do them. In a normal BDSM relationship, the sub usually has the power over things, because they are he ones telling the Dom what they want done and stop it with a safe word when they've had enough. Your character could be chosen by a sub to do it, but could find he's a sub and play it out from there.

 

[Handley_Page]

So here’s one topic for discussion.
What do you do to make your men interesting—besides make them handsome rugged square-jawed muscular well hung? Interesting - Yes.

Take an interest in their business dealings? Not unless it's pertinent to the story line.

Give them hobbies? Good idea. A technical one, for instance.(Ham Radio ?)

Make them empathetic? Unlikely

Quirky? [/I] Good idea.

 

[RoyceConnors]

So here’s one topic for discussion.
What do you do to make your men interesting—besides make them handsome rugged square-jawed muscular well hung? Interesting - Yes.

Take an interest in their business dealings? Not unless it's pertinent to the story line.

Give them hobbies? Good idea. A technical one, for instance.(Ham Radio ?)

Make them empathetic? Unlikely

Quirky? [/I] Good idea.

In Blood of the Clans, one of my main characters, Grayson MacDonald, has a wide range of events happen to him to show his inner person, from killing, loving, honouring tradition and sacrificing to uphold it, playing around with his friends, all showing who he is inside as a person and it let's readers form an attachment to him, as they relate to what he's said and done. He became someone they'd accept into their own lives as a friend or whatever.

We all have many sides to us, it's the ones we bring out in our characters, that make them as real as you or I to readers. Whether they like them or not is up to the readers, but I can do my best to sway them to how I want them to be thought of.

 

[Hypoxia]

"Write people as people" seems to me easier to say than to do. I've sometimes based characters on people I know, and I've sometimes just made them up. To judge from my own reactions to them, and those of my readers, my success rate is about the same for each group. (Better for the women than for the men, which is why I started this thread!)

To begin by modeling characters on living people is to get a head start. But keeping them alive on the page requires care and skill.

Maybe it's the difference between a Pygmalion-like 'creation' and a living person set loose inside the authorial mind. Yes, some of my players are Frankencritters, created from several parts; but mostly, they're just people, playing at being Voices In My Head. I always listen to my Voices. (They insist!) But I edit them.

 

[jacktar48]

I find men hard to write. It seems to me that mine have been coming out sort of colorless, without a lot of personality. I get the sense that my male readers aren’t identifying with the men a whole lot, beyond vicariously fucking my women (though maybe that’s all they want).

My current story is something of a disaster (AKA “learning experience”). Part of the problem, I suspect (certainly not the whole problem), is the male lead. He’s supposed to be a “Dominant,” but he’s young (about 23), inexperienced, and completely unable to resist a pretty woman who crooks a finger in his direction. My conniving anti-heroine finds him easy to manipulate. He’s drawn some negative comment from (I think) male readers, who seem offended by his stupidity. I myself don’t think he’s stupid—but women are flinging themselves at him for reasons that don’t really have all that much to do with him, and how many young men could keep their wits about them if that were happening to them?

So here’s one topic for discussion. What do you do to make your men interesting—besides make them handsome rugged square-jawed muscular well hung? Take an interest in their business dealings? Give them hobbies? Make them empathetic? Quirky?

Your problem with writing men may be that you have no experience of being one, and you have to rely mainly on stereotypes. This can be OK if he's a subsidiary character, but if he's one of the main ones it will not be so good.

You might try giving him some female characteristics that you intuitively understand and which are generally not attributable to men. We all know people have both male and female sides to their psyches. Identify something that might stereotypically be out of character and make it plausible. Maybe he's secretly addicted to soap operas or pulpy romance novels. Maybe he knits sweaters for his dog. Maybe he hates football. Whatever. Revealing this will make him more human and sympathetic to female readers.

 

[Serafina1210]

Your problem with writing men may be that you have no experience of being one, and you have to rely mainly on stereotypes. This can be OK if he's a subsidiary character, but if he's one of the main ones it will not be so good.

You might try giving him some female characteristics that you intuitively understand and which are generally not attributable to men. We all know people have both male and female sides to their psyches. Identify something that might stereotypically be out of character and make it plausible. Maybe he's secretly addicted to soap operas or pulpy romance novels. Maybe he knits sweaters for his dog. Maybe he hates football. Whatever. Revealing this will make him more human and sympathetic to female readers.

I've got a fantasy of being a Tiresias-like figure, only instead of having to stumble across two snakes coupling, I'd be able to change gender at will, or maybe with some limits, like only twice between full moons. I wonder if anyone has written something like that among the thousands of stories I haven't read on this site.

Anyway, I could amass a sizable collection of both male and female characteristics, which of course would be available to me whatever form my body happened to have. And of course they'd sometimes emerge unexpectedly at inappropriate moments, to enhance the chaos.

 

[jacktar48]

I've got a fantasy of being a Tiresias-like figure, only instead of having to stumble across two snakes coupling, I'd be able to change gender at will, or maybe with some limits, like only twice between full moons. I wonder if anyone has written something like that among the thousands of stories I haven't read on this site.

Anyway, I could amass a sizable collection of both male and female characteristics, which of course would be available to me whatever form my body happened to have. And of course they'd sometimes emerge unexpectedly at inappropriate moments, to enhance the chaos.

That's a really interesting idea and could be the basis of a good story. Woman learns surprising things about men by actually becoming one briefly, or vice versa.

Cherokee philosophy speculates that while still in the womb everyone must make a choice as to whether they want to be male or female at birth. Some go one way, some go the other, and rarely someone can't make up his/her mind and ends up somewhere in between. People with the body of one sex and the mind of the other were thought of as particularly blessed with insight and often became medical/religious practitioners.

 

[Serafina1210]

Cherokee philosophy speculates that while still in the womb everyone must make a choice as to whether they want to be male or female at birth. Some go one way, some go the other, and rarely someone can't make up his/her mind and ends up somewhere in between. People with the body of one sex and the mind of the other were thought of as particularly blessed with insight and often became medical/religious practitioners.

I like that a lot.

I may have to try writing my story. Learn by writing, you know.

 

[Stella_Omega]

There's an essay linked in my sig, that your character should read.

Lit's readership is hugely heteronormative, and you will get poor responses from some men if they think your male character doesn't fit into the very narrow boundaries that are considered approved male behavior.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Your problem with writing men may be that you have no experience of being one, and you have to rely mainly on stereotypes. This can be OK if he's a subsidiary character, but if he's one of the main ones it will not be so good.

You might try giving him some female characteristics that you intuitively understand and which are generally not attributable to men. We all know people have both male and female sides to their psyches. Identify something that might stereotypically be out of character and make it plausible. Maybe he's secretly addicted to soap operas or pulpy romance novels. Maybe he knits sweaters for his dog. Maybe he hates football. Whatever. Revealing this will make him more human and sympathetic to female readers.

About 98% of men lack the experience, too.

 

[Serafina1210]

There's an essay linked in my sig, that your character should read.

Lit's readership is hugely heteronormative, and you will get poor responses from some men if they think your male character doesn't fit into the very narrow boundaries that are considered approved male behavior.

I've read most of what's under your sig, Stella. I'll see if I can spot the one you mean.

It's a bit of a bore, feeling that certain fun things you could do with men are out of bounds here. In a recent chapter I really wanted my 23-yr-old to have a gay experience. It felt like a turn-on, I thought it would be good for him, and I had a bi male character already in the story who I just knew would be glad to help broaden his horizons. But I flinched, knowing that a significant number of readers would react badly.

I'm a little ashamed of my cowardice, actually.