New Witness to Michael Brown Shooting

[Skiddles2014]

We're starting to see a little sanity return to media and starting to see more involved, detailed reporting, especially in the better news organizations. Eventually, it will all be public knowledge - I think part of the challenge of the modern media age is the speed at which we expect information to be available is often unrealistic, which leads to us filling in the blanks, whichever way we want to craft the narrative.

Prior to the conclusion of the grand jury and the initial investigation, it is not unusual to release redacted reports because they may contain details that have yet to be verified, or the names of witnesses who have yet to be publically identified. One of the things to keep in mind about the witnesses we've seen on television is that these are the people who, on their own, volunteered to come forward and seek out the media. Most people won't and don't (and that is not to say anything bad about them, it is just the way it is).

The riots are over and the media is already started the process of moving on to the next stories. The story may invoke a few people to make lasting changes in their behavior, perhaps to become involved in some cause. Most folks are simply going to move on to the next outrage, whatever it happens to be.

What are the 'better news organizations' you speak of?

 

[toubab]

We're starting to see a little sanity return to media and starting to see more involved, detailed reporting, especially in the better news organizations. Eventually, it will all be public knowledge - I think part of the challenge of the modern media age is the speed at which we expect information to be available is often unrealistic, which leads to us filling in the blanks, whichever way we want to craft the narrative.

Prior to the conclusion of the grand jury and the initial investigation, it is not unusual to release redacted reports because they may contain details that have yet to be verified, or the names of witnesses who have yet to be publically identified. One of the things to keep in mind about the witnesses we've seen on television is that these are the people who, on their own, volunteered to come forward and seek out the media. Most people won't and don't (and that is not to say anything bad about them, it is just the way it is).

The riots are over and the media is already started the process of moving on to the next stories. The story may invoke a few people to make lasting changes in their behavior, perhaps to become involved in some cause. Most folks are simply going to move on to the next outrage, whatever it happens to be.

I've never seen such pitiful incident reports before, and I've seen thousands over the years. There's redaction, and there's this kind of redaction.

 

[toubab]

Oh, I thought I would mention one other thing I personally thought was interesting that no one has commented on, and that was the position of Mr. Brown's body - he is laid out in a line facing the officers car, which, forensically, indicates forward momentum. At the point of death all muscles of the body relax and the body surrenders to gravity. At this moment whatever momentum the body is carrying continues to effect the body.

A person standing straight up with crumble straight down. A person retreating will fall backwards, a person twisting will continue to twist, a person advancing will continue advancing. This only applies to fatal wounds that cause sudden death - usually something that hits the fatal T - the brain, the spine, or the heart. In other fatal wounds where death is quick but not sudden or instant, some additional muscle driven movement occurs.

We know this because, especially in the photographic age, we have thousands of fatal shootings on film, tape or digital and there are groups and individuals who have spent a lot of time analyzing them. That's science in action - repeated observations over time. Had the victim been standing still, he would have gone straight down in a crumpled position and then fell in one direction. He would not have been lined out. Additionally, if death is not sudden, a fatally wounded person does not line out - autonomic muscle reaction leads the body to begin to curl into a fetal position.

You can also see this effect in boxers who get knocked out - the continuation of the moment of the body when muscle control is lost. Moving forward, falling forward. Moving back, falling back. Straight up, crumble straight down.

Food for thought.

Good point about the fact his body was face down as if he had been headed in the direction of the officer when the fatal shot or shots were fired.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Like all liberals, she has a theoretical approach to reality, based on how it ought to be.

Yep, but REAL LIFE is 6-4 and 300 pounds with a pissy attitude, and youre in his way.

I have a sister in law like BUTTERS. I usta own a junk yard dog and the woman insisted she was gonna be that dogs friend, and every time she got near him he bit her. And she'd get mad at me. I told her a dozen times, LEAVE SUGAR BEAR ALONE! She wouldn't.

 

[toubab]

Yep, but REAL LIFE is 6-4 and 300 pounds with a pissy attitude, and youre in his way.

I have a sister in law like BUTTERS. I usta own a junk yard dog and the woman insisted she was gonna be that dogs friend, and every time she got near him he bit her. And she'd get mad at me. I told her a dozen times, LEAVE SUGAR BEAR ALONE! She wouldn't.

I happen to be 6'5" and weigh about 280 pounds and I wouldn't want somebody Brown's size bullrushing me. If I had a firearm I'm not taking the chance he wouldn't knock me on my ass, take my pistol and cap me. I would shoot the motherfucker.

 

[Paul_Chance]

On Better News Organizations:

All organizations, small to large, are capable of good journalism. Here's how I tend to filter it from lowest value to highest.

1. Cable news networks, general internet news sites, blogs. For these types of organization the need for "fresh content" is insatiable, so they have no patience to develop a story. They take what they get and immediately start pumping out content. This content is often shallow, slanted, and ultimately wrong. They are literally running on an minute by minute cycle and since this cycle is so unforgiving, sensational headlines and lead-in's are what gets them attention.

2. Print media (news papers), the major networks, online versions of print media. These tend to run on a daily cycle - which gives them a little bit of time to actually do some rudimentary research and to write and edit copy. The more detailed stories start to come out.

3. The weekly news shows have the opportunity to develop yet even more depth, do even more research, write even better copy, usually with more knowledgeable and responsible sourcing. Weekly magazines fall into this category as well.

4. Monthly magazines and journals, some media specials or special editions. Again, time passes, more research, more writing, more sourcing, more editing. Generally, by the time a story hits this cycle more facts have emerged and their is more of an opportunity to put them into meaningful context.

5. Last, good books on the subject - lots of time, lots of research, lots of sourcing.

Now, of course, all of the five cycles above can turn out speculation, imagination, and outright fabrication and try to pass it as news.

Within the context of the media source, I tend to look at an informal "fact content". I value a well sourced, openly sourced, and factual account - which contains facts that can be verified and aren't simply un-sourced, single sourced, or anonymously sourced.

Another useful tool I find is knowing what informal fallacies are - and why they are informal fallacies. For example, one of common ones is the Argument From Silence, where the writer forwards that a conclusion can be drawn from the absence of evidence, rather than the existence of evidence.

The Ferguson cycle is only in the second week - facts are starting their outward flow through the media filters. In another two weeks we'll have an even clearer picture, and it will become clearer and clearer with each passing week. The demand for "information now" is driven by that cycle. In many ways we are conditioned by that cycle to expect to know the details of complex events in the 24 hour cycle. The world simply doesn't work that way.

 

[Sean]

Now that I have checked all of my AV files. I have no such AV. I did, as I mentioned, post a picture of myself with the pistol described behind my back, but on further reflection I do now remember taking that picture with another pistol, a .45 1911 Colt, for the same thread. Essentially the same picture but two different guns. I no longer have either picture but I do remember them now, and according to my files they were never resized for an AV. I do have over 120K posts and a lot of years on Lit. hard to remember everything.

http://www.nrcc.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/simpson-gif.gif

 

[Paul_Chance]

On Incident Reports:

I've seen truly crappy incident reports. It is not unusual for the supervising officers, brass, investigators, or DA's to make officers rewrite incident reports, some times multiple times.

These initial incident reports are often not released and legally reclassified as "working product", which is generally not responsive to FOIA requests. Generally, by the time an incident report is released to the press in a high profile case, it has been repeatedly rewritten.

In a court case, there are often fierce battles to get the early versions and the working product so it can be used to highlight places when the narrative changed and so show reasonable doubt.

What appears in an incident report is simply the tip of the iceberg to come. There are primary reasons behind redaction - first, there are details you do not want to get into the public, as it can influence the pool of witnesses who may or may not have yet been interviewed, and second, it can create the appearance of slander or libel, and finally it may be redacted to protect sources or methods.

 

[Paul_Chance]

The power of video is an amazing thing in our modern age. If you look at the difference between the two shootings (and the societal response). In the first, you have competing versions of the narrative. In the second you have video - the suspect has a knife, the suspect is maneuvering and advancing on the officers. In the first you have public outrage, in the second you have some professional outrage, but no matching public outrage.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Interesting video on CNN right now.

Evidently it's brutally hot in Ferguson Missouri today. Protesters are still out, but quite a few are passing out in the heat.

Missouri State Trooper is driving one of those Gator ATVs up and down the protest line, passing out bottled water to the protesters.

Good for him.
:nods:

#HeartsAndMinds

edited to add:
picture
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvvzcBbCYAAI8xC.jpg

 

[Dream59]

On Better News Organizations:

All organizations, small to large, are capable of good journalism. Here's how I tend to filter it from lowest value to highest.

1. Cable news networks, general internet news sites, blogs. For these types of organization the need for "fresh content" is insatiable, so they have no patience to develop a story. They take what they get and immediately start pumping out content. This content is often shallow, slanted, and ultimately wrong. They are literally running on an minute by minute cycle and since this cycle is so unforgiving, sensational headlines and lead-in's are what gets them attention.

2. Print media (news papers), the major networks, online versions of print media. These tend to run on a daily cycle - which gives them a little bit of time to actually do some rudimentary research and to write and edit copy. The more detailed stories start to come out.

3. The weekly news shows have the opportunity to develop yet even more depth, do even more research, write even better copy, usually with more knowledgeable and responsible sourcing. Weekly magazines fall into this category as well.

4. Monthly magazines and journals, some media specials or special editions. Again, time passes, more research, more writing, more sourcing, more editing. Generally, by the time a story hits this cycle more facts have emerged and their is more of an opportunity to put them into meaningful context.

5. Last, good books on the subject - lots of time, lots of research, lots of sourcing.

Now, of course, all of the five cycles above can turn out speculation, imagination, and outright fabrication and try to pass it as news.

Within the context of the media source, I tend to look at an informal "fact content". I value a well sourced, openly sourced, and factual account - which contains facts that can be verified and aren't simply un-sourced, single sourced, or anonymously sourced.

Another useful tool I find is knowing what informal fallacies are - and why they are informal fallacies. For example, one of common ones is the Argument From Silence, where the writer forwards that a conclusion can be drawn from the absence of evidence, rather than the existence of evidence.

The Ferguson cycle is only in the second week - facts are starting their outward flow through the media filters. In another two weeks we'll have an even clearer picture, and it will become clearer and clearer with each passing week. The demand for "information now" is driven by that cycle. In many ways we are conditioned by that cycle to expect to know the details of complex events in the 24 hour cycle. The world simply doesn't work that way.

You forgot one important part. News for the most part has become about entertainment, and about how they can grasp and hold your attention in 3 minute portions.

 

[toubab]

On Incident Reports:

I've seen truly crappy incident reports. It is not unusual for the supervising officers, brass, investigators, or DA's to make officers rewrite incident reports, some times multiple times.

These initial incident reports are often not released and legally reclassified as "working product", which is generally not responsive to FOIA requests. Generally, by the time an incident report is released to the press in a high profile case, it has been repeatedly rewritten.

In a court case, there are often fierce battles to get the early versions and the working product so it can be used to highlight places when the narrative changed and so show reasonable doubt.

What appears in an incident report is simply the tip of the iceberg to come. There are primary reasons behind redaction - first, there are details you do not want to get into the public, as it can influence the pool of witnesses who may or may not have yet been interviewed, and second, it can create the appearance of slander or libel, and finally it may be redacted to protect sources or methods.

If you've seen an incident report with as little information as the Ferguson report, or even the St. Louis report, for that matter, you've seen one more than I have.

 

[Busybody]

Pretty Funny – Black Woman Crashes Darren Wilson Rally And Demands An Answer To Her Question




The question she asks is:

“Why ain’t there no police here? Where are the police? Y’all distirbin’ the peace. Why are they not shootin on y’all?”

Answer from a guy in the crowd:

“Because we ain’t stealin’ shit!!”

Read more at http://iowntheworld.com/blog/#3BQDCwfrxTE7LIi5.99
Read more at http://iowntheworld.com/blog/#3BQDCwfrxTE7LIi5.99

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

We're starting to see a little sanity return to media and starting to see more involved, detailed reporting, especially in the better news organizations. Eventually, it will all be public knowledge - I think part of the challenge of the modern media age is the speed at which we expect information to be available is often unrealistic, which leads to us filling in the blanks, whichever way we want to craft the narrative.

Prior to the conclusion of the grand jury and the initial investigation, it is not unusual to release redacted reports because they may contain details that have yet to be verified, or the names of witnesses who have yet to be publically identified. One of the things to keep in mind about the witnesses we've seen on television is that these are the people who, on their own, volunteered to come forward and seek out the media. Most people won't and don't (and that is not to say anything bad about them, it is just the way it is).

The riots are over and the media is already started the process of moving on to the next stories. The story may invoke a few people to make lasting changes in their behavior, perhaps to become involved in some cause. Most folks are simply going to move on to the next outrage, whatever it happens to be.

The riots are only over for now...

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Pretty Funny – Black Woman Crashes Darren Wilson Rally And Demands An Answer To Her Question

The question she asks is:

“Why ain’t there no police here? Where are the police? Y’all distirbin’ the peace. Why are they not shootin on y’all?”

Answer from a guy in the crowd:

“Because we ain’t stealin’ shit!!”

Read more at http://iowntheworld.com/blog/#3BQDCwfrxTE7LIi5.99
Read more at http://iowntheworld.com/blog/#3BQDCwfrxTE7LIi5.99

*chuckle*

 

[Busybody]

Riots are never over

They just change venues!


CHANGE!

 

[about_average]

You're pretty stupid. The number of shots has no bearing on the initial justification for using deadly force, or the outcome. It only has meaning to the unsophisticated who watch too may movies, and listen to too many people who don't know anything about guns or their effects on the human body. I have not made up my mind about who is right or wrong. It isn't the number of shots fired that is going to decide if the Officer was authorized to use deadly force or not.

Do you even pay attention to what you write?
Your position, without knowing all the facts, was that it's not possible Wilson could have shot Brown six times for any reason other than that he was unable to stop him with the first 5.

You are very stupid.

 

[about_average]

A person standing straight up with crumble straight down. A person retreating will fall backwards, a person twisting will continue to twist, a person advancing will continue advancing. This only applies to fatal wounds that cause sudden death - usually something that hits the fatal T - the brain, the spine, or the heart. In other fatal wounds where death is quick but not sudden or instant, some additional muscle driven movement occurs.

That's key. One of the coroners said kill shot was to the top of the head.
Are you suggesting that it's not possible for a person standing still to be shot in the arm 3 times, in the face twice, start to collapse to his knees then, while falling forward to be hit in the top of the head and fall in the way brown's body was lying?

 

[Balladeer08]

I think people here need to publish their diplomas from the University of C.S.I. Television.

Or Quincy.

Who else grants degrees in this?

 

[butters]

That's key. One of the coroners said kill shot was to the top of the head.
Are you suggesting that it's not possible for a person standing still to be shot in the arm 3 times, in the face twice, start to collapse to his knees then, while falling forward to be hit in the top of the head and fall in the way brown's body was lying?

it'll be very interesting to see how close this comes to the released coroner's findings

the released findings, that is. not the released coroner.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Darren Wilson's first police job was in Jennings, Missouri, which had a reputation as the most racist police force in America.

Interesting.

 

[butters]

Darren Wilson's first police job was in Jennings, Missouri, which had a reputation as the most racist police force in America.

Interesting.

it is.

and harkens back to my point that if i were an officer i would no doubt revert to my training when handling an incident. if this officer's early induction into policing was through such a badly run department it''s less surprising, though NOT conclusive, that his actions might prove to have been unacceptable.

 

[about_average]

I think people here need to publish their diplomas from the University of C.S.I. Television.

Well, just to be clear, I'm not making any claims at all, just offering, or asking about, possible scenarios that would end in the same outcome.

For example, I know for a fact that "because the first five didn't stop him" doesn't mean that's the only possible reason six (or more) shots were fired. It may be the reason, but certainly not the only possible reason. Claiming it is would only be made by someone who thinks they know what happened.

 

[about_average]

it is.

and harkens back to my point that if i were an officer i would no doubt revert to my training when handling an incident. if this officer's early induction into policing was through such a badly run department it''s less surprising, though NOT conclusive, that his actions might prove to have been unacceptable.

Yeah, but you don't know how you'd react to a 292lb 6'4" assailant, so you're obviously full of shit.

How JBJ and vette came to that conclusion from your post, I have no idea.
But it's is interesting.
http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=55725110&postcount=1

 

[MrBates2]

He was an outstanding young man, with a bright future. RIP Mike.