Lev Grossman

[Serafina1210]

One of my favs, Lev Grossman has a column in this morning's NY Times about why he writes fantasy. It's all good stuff, but I was especially struck by this:

It’s an emotionally raw genre - it forces you to lay yourself open on the page. It doesn’t traffic in ironies and caveats. When you cast a spell you can’t be kidding, you have to mean it.

Isn't that just as true of erotica (fantasy's disreputable cousin)? You dig out your sexual fantasies from deep down and lay them out for everybody to see, and they're most compelling if they're really your own fantasies, not someone else's.

[ignore]The trolls we complain about understand this instinctively. They know it stings when they say "what a worthless piece of shit," because they know we've turned our most tender and vulnerable spots towards them, like bending over for a spank.[/ignore] (Shouldn't have included this last bit. The post is really about Grossman and the cool thing he wrote. Any other Grossman fans here?)

 

[lovecraft68]

One of my favs, Lev Grossman has a column in this morning's NY Times about why he writes fantasy. It's all good stuff, but I was especially struck by this:



Isn't that just as true of erotica (fantasy's disreputable cousin)? You dig out your sexual fantasies from deep down and lay them out for everybody to see, and they're most compelling if they're really your own fantasies, not someone else's.

The trolls we complain about understand this instinctively. They know it stings when they say "what a worthless piece of shit," because they know we've turned our most tender and vulnerable spots towards them, like bending over for a spank.

Its certainly the goal of trolls to hurt you, but its up to you if they do or not. The way I see it is if all they are coming out with is "you piece of shit" why the hell would I take that to heart? Its like someone just flipping you off on the highway, who cares?

 

[Hypoxia]

Do those of us who've posted a number of stories truly write our own fantasies, and thus imbue the tales with our souls; or do we write what we think will engage readers by highlighting THEIR sexual fantasies? If the latter, then negative comments aren't too ego-damaging.

I'm not an incest fetishist, so if one of my incest stories gets a less-than-stunning reception, I know it's because I didn't write well enough, not that my fantasy was inadequate or inappropriate for the incest audience. And it turns out that many readers' fantasies are much more extreme than my own. Should I limit my writing to my own comparatively vanilla dreams, or should I pander to the ravening mob?

Do I "lay out my soul" in my tales? Sometimes, sure. I try to exhibit my characters' souls too, especially those based on real people. And I lay out actual events -- some of my episodes are straight reporting. I'm amused by comments saying such reality reporting "strains credulity". Reality can be incredible.

Dare I lay out my soul by admitting my own secret fetishes? Those involving peanut butter, candy canes, and ukuleles? No, I'd better stay mum...

 

[Serafina1210]

Do I "lay out my soul" in my tales? Sometimes, sure. I try to exhibit my characters' souls too, especially those based on real people. And I lay out actual events -- some of my episodes are straight reporting. I'm amused by comments saying such reality reporting "strains credulity". Reality can be incredible.

Dare I lay out my soul by admitting my own secret fetishes? Those involving peanut butter, candy canes, and ukuleles? No, I'd better stay mum...

I like. For most people, fantasy runs along a well worn track. Reality never does, though memory often forces it into familiar shapes.

I shop for other people's fantasies and mix them up with my own (mainly because I don't have enough fantasies to populate a story of any length). I'd be scared to confess which were mine and which borrowed.

 

[sr71plt]

Do those of us who've posted a number of stories truly write our own fantasies, and thus imbue the tales with our souls; or do we write what we think will engage readers by highlighting THEIR sexual fantasies? If the latter, then negative comments aren't too ego-damaging.

Both, for me, although it's getting my own motor going before I give a thought to engaging anyone else in it. I don't see them as exclusive of each other, though.

 

[squirrelzo]

Yes lay them bare! Write a sugar-coated romance it's only fair.

As an unavowed incest fan and writer, I take exception to "pandering" and the
ravenous incest "mob." Kind of insulting, isn't it?

Perhaps when your incest stories don't do well, it's because they can,sense the cynicism and insincerity?

Do those of us who've posted a number of stories truly write our own fantasies, and thus imbue the tales with our souls; or do we write what we think will engage readers by highlighting THEIR sexual fantasies? If the latter, then negative comments aren't too ego-damaging.

I'm not an incest fetishist, so if one of my incest stories gets a less-than-stunning reception, I know it's because I didn't write well enough, not that my fantasy was inadequate or inappropriate for the incest audience. And it turns out that many readers' fantasies are much more extreme than my own. Should I limit my writing to my own comparatively vanilla dreams, or should I pander to the ravening mob?

Do I "lay out my soul" in my tales? Sometimes, sure. I try to exhibit my characters' souls too, especially those based on real people. And I lay out actual events -- some of my episodes are straight reporting. I'm amused by comments saying such reality reporting "strains credulity". Reality can be incredible.

Dare I lay out my soul by admitting my own secret fetishes? Those involving peanut butter, candy canes, and ukuleles? No, I'd better stay mum...

 

[Hypoxia]

As an unavowed incest fan and writer, I take exception to "pandering" and the
ravenous incest "mob." Kind of insulting, isn't it?

I omitted the SARCASM smiley. Regrets.

Perhaps when your incest stories don't do well, it's because they can,sense the cynicism and insincerity?

Read them yourself and tell me. Try THAT'S MY GIRL, then the BLACK & WHITE stories and THE BOOK OF RUTH cycle, then A TASTE OF INCEST episodes. Tell me if I'm pandering. (Except for the TASTE cycle, most of those have red H's.)

Some pander with formulaic MOM'S SO HOT! and FUCK ME, DADDY! plots. I try hard to avoid those cliches. I 'pander' with love and tragedy -- those are the buttons I try to push. That's what authors here try to do: push readers' buttons, elicit emotional responses. That's pandering, right? I admit it. It's the challenging, non-pandering tales, like BIG BANANA, that get low scores.

 

[sr71plt]

I'll have to say I don't research "what readers want" before I write up a story. So, I'd have no idea if it was pandering to anyone or not. It's what I wanted to write.

 

[lovecraft68]

Yes lay them bare! Write a sugar-coated romance it's only fair.

As an unavowed incest fan and writer, I take exception to "pandering" and the
ravenous incest "mob." Kind of insulting, isn't it?

Perhaps when your incest stories don't do well, it's because they can,sense the cynicism and insincerity?

I've done well in that category, but I don't think I go out of my way to cater to any particular faction or the mob.

I only write stories that strike me as hot, if I don;t think they are hot why would I write them and they would probably come out crappy.

Sometimes I will wrote one and say "I bet they'll like this one" because its a more fun sexy premise then some of my other incest stories which are darker or spend a lot of time "justifying" the taboo attraction.

But I think an author needs to have some interest in a fetish to make the story work. For instance I could never turn out a good GM story because the category and actions hold zero interest for me. Now some like interracial or anal which is not really my kink I am sure I could put down a passable story because I have some interest and some experience with both.

Incest is a much maligned category for two reasons, one and the one most understandable is the fact that in real life its a crime and people who have been or know someone who has been molested can find it repugnant

But beyond that its also garnered the reputation as having "trailer park" readers who are less intelligent than other readers. I find that to be a by product of "haters" who write in categories that get less attention so...therefore the people over there are stupid.

Now how I see incest is the most challenging category here to try to write believable story. Think about it, if you take away the "fantasy" categories that by nature do not deal with reality Erotic horror, sci fi, Non human then every other category here can happen in real life.

So out of the "real life" categories its easy to write a story that is believable in interracial, GM< lesbian, group sex etc...that stuff all happens every day.

But try to come up with an incest story that seems somehow plausible, that makes the reader think "wow I could see how that could happen". Of course I am discounting the countless "Wow I saw my son's dick and I'm hopping on stories" and only speaking of those that make an effort to be a real story.

That's a challenge

 

[squirrelzo]

I agree and another thing Incest is really plagued with cliche and stereotype. It is challenging to come up with a new angle.

"I heard a sound in the middle of the night and saw a light on. What was mom/dad/daughter/son doing?? Omg masturbating!"

No offense Hypoxia. But please write a disgustingly sappy vanilla romance I bet it would be great.

Do those of us who've posted a number of stories truly write our own fantasies, and thus imbue the tales with our souls; or do we write what we think will engage readers by highlighting THEIR sexual fantasies? If the latter, then negative comments aren't too ego-damaging.

I'm not an incest fetishist, so if one of my incest stories gets a less-than-stunning reception, I know it's MNbecause I didn't write well enough, not that my fantasy was inadequate or inappropriate for the incest audience. And it turns out that many readers' fantasies are much more extreme than my own. Should I limit my writing to my own comparatively vanilla dreams, or should I pander to the ravening mob?

Do I "lay out my soul" in my tales? Sometimes, sure. I try to exhibit my characters' souls too, especially those based on real people. And I lay out actual events -- some of my episodes are straight reporting. I'm amused by comments saying such reality reporting "strains credulity". Reality can be incredible.

Dare I lay out my soul by admitting my own secret fetishes? Those involving peanut butter, candy canes, and ukuleles? No, I'd better stay mum...

I've done well in that category, but I don't think I go out of my way to cater to any particular faction or the mob.

I only write stories that strike me as hot, if I don;t think they are hot why would I write them and they would probably come out crappy.

Sometimes I will wrote one and say "I bet they'll like this one" because its a more fun sexy premise then some of my other incest stories which are darker or spend a lot of time "justifying" the taboo attraction.

But I think an author needs to have some interest in a fetish to make the story work. For instance I could never turn out a good GM story because the category and actions hold zero interest for me. Now some like interracial or anal which is not really my kink I am sure I could put down a passable story because I have some interest and some experience with both.

Incest is a much maligned category for two reasons, one and the one most understandable is the fact that in real life its a crime and people who have been or know someone who has been molested can find it repugnant

But beyond that its also garnered the reputation as having "trailer park" readers who are less intelligent than other readers. I find that to be a by product of "haters" who write in categories that get less attention so...therefore the people over there are stupid.

Now how I see incest is the most challenging category here to try to write believable story. Think about it, if you take away the "fantasy" categories that by nature do not deal with reality Erotic horror, sci fi, Non human then every other category here can happen in real life.

So out of the "real life" categories its easy to write a story that is believable in interracial, GM< lesbian, group sex etc...that stuff all happens every day.

But try to come up with an incest story that seems somehow plausible, that makes the reader think "wow I could see how that could happen". Of course I am discounting the countless "Wow I saw my son's dick and I'm hopping on stories" and only speaking of those that make an effort to be a real story.

That's a challenge

 

[lovecraft68]

I agree and another thing Incest is really plagued with cliche and stereotype. It is challenging to come up with a new angle.

"I heard a sound in the middle of the night and saw a light on. What was mom/dad/daughter/son doing?? Omg masturbating!"

No offense Hypoxia. But please write a disgustingly sappy vanilla romance I bet it would be great.

Every category has its badly over used tropes and incest is no exception and I think you called out the #1 offender. I have written one along that premise, the 2nd mother/son story I wrote, but I tried to put a spin on it and it wasn't spur of the moment mom hopping on sex.

The trope that gets to me the most in incest is the horribly over used Halloween trope of mom/sis showing up in the same costume as son's girlfriend or whatever variation on that you can name.

 

[Serafina1210]

Interesting points, LC. I don't get anything at all about incest. Never had an incest fantasy, don't understand the appeal, don't know anything about the audience, even by reputation. I don't think I could be persuasive there. I started with fantasies of mine, and gave them further shape and direction through research. That way I found myself in a place I could never have predicted I'd like as well as I do.

 

[lovecraft68]

Interesting points, LC. I don't get anything at all about incest. Never had an incest fantasy, don't understand the appeal, don't know anything about the audience, even by reputation. I don't think I could be persuasive there. I started with fantasies of mine, and gave them further shape and direction through research. That way I found myself in a place I could never have predicted I'd like as well as I do.

Some people can fake it til they make it in some genres, but not sure that flies with fetishes. I write pretty decent foot fetish scenes because I have a foot fetish, but tell me to write a seen featuring a golden shower and I'd be totally fudging it.

As for incest I have a brother/sister kink myself, but only one for stories that have a romance angle because my fascination with the subject is the emotional taboo, not just sex, that taboo of being in love with the one person society tells you, you can't be.

As for mother/son I don;t have that kink at all for myself, but for some reason the idea that a mother might seduce her son is intriguing for that same reason listed above.

But I do well with them because when I write them I simply see a cougar/cub type of story and throw in the mother angle, but I don't "run with it" in my own mind.

 

[Stella_Omega]

One of my favs, Lev Grossman has a column in this morning's NY Times about why he writes fantasy. It's all good stuff, but I was especially struck by this:



Isn't that just as true of erotica (fantasy's disreputable cousin)? You dig out your sexual fantasies from deep down and lay them out for everybody to see, and they're most compelling if they're really your own fantasies, not someone else's.

<snip>The post is really about Grossman and the cool thing he wrote. Any other Grossman fans here?)

I haven't read much published fantasy in, say, the past ten years. Partly because I read so much of it previously-- and if each book was a portrayal of the author's soul, then there are a lot of cookie-cutter souls out there, all borrowing from each other what they haven't taken from Tolkien.

As far as erotica goes, for myself I only write my own fantasies, and they are pretty compelling to me, anyway. But also a lot of it is trash, and unpublishable. Someday I might have the time to do the extensive rewriting that would have to happen before these things would even make sense to anyone... I'm my own troll!

 

[lovecraft68]

. I'm my own troll!

Self Flagellation. I am not surprised

 

[squirrelzo]

Btw I agree with this totally.

Ive written stuff that had little to do with my actual fantasies and the trolls didnt bother me a bit. With others they are completely personal. I got a really really malicious comment that was clearly meant to be a sort of violent attack on me. Didn't get to me but I felt the difference. It was much more personal and clearly wanted to draw blood and belittle my fantasy.

Clearly this person had deeply identified with my story. Something in there, I really have no clue, set them off. In a way you are releasing their own fantasies. So they get massively po'd when it doesn't go their way.

One of my favs, Lev Grossman has a column in this morning's NY Times about why he writes fantasy. It's all good stuff, but I was especially struck by this:



Isn't that just as true of erotica (fantasy's disreputable cousin)? You dig out your sexual fantasies from deep down and lay them out for everybody to see, and they're most compelling if they're really your own fantasies, not someone else's.

[ignore]The trolls we complain about understand this instinctively. They know it stings when they say "what a worthless piece of shit," because they know we've turned our most tender and vulnerable spots towards them, like bending over for a spank.[/ignore] (Shouldn't have included this last bit. The post is really about Grossman and the cool thing he wrote. Any other Grossman fans here?)

 

[SikFuk]

When I'm writing erotic fantasies, I'm pandering to myself. My personal taste runs counter to the LIT norm.

 

[oggbashan]

Some people can fake it til they make it in some genres, but not sure that flies with fetishes. I write pretty decent foot fetish scenes because I have a foot fetish, but tell me to write a seen featuring a golden shower and I'd be totally fudging it.

As for incest I have a brother/sister kink myself, but only one for stories that have a romance angle because my fascination with the subject is the emotional taboo, not just sex, that taboo of being in love with the one person society tells you, you can't be.

As for mother/son I don;t have that kink at all for myself, but for some reason the idea that a mother might seduce her son is intriguing for that same reason listed above.

But I do well with them because when I write them I simply see a cougar/cub type of story and throw in the mother angle, but I don't "run with it" in my own mind.

I have written many fetish stories that have no attraction for me personally. My first erotic stories were fetish because I came across the fetish groups on Yahoo, read the few posted stories, and thought 'I can do better than that'.

Like you with mother/son incest stories, I write a story but include the fetish as an integral part of the plot. It seems to work, but as I have said many times before I'm stuck on one particular fetish. I have a part written story that is intended to include 'South Indian Women's Hairy and Sweaty Armpits' but I can't make the story work.

That is a shame because there are several Adult Yahoo Groups for that fetish and their membership runs into tens of thousands.

Maybe I'll succeed someday.

 

[Serafina1210]

I have a part written story that is intended to include 'South Indian Women's Hairy and Sweaty Armpits' but I can't make the story work.

I have a character in my current series who would LOVE those armpits. You can borrow her if you like. She's not terribly busy right now.

 

[lovecraft68]

I have written many fetish stories that have no attraction for me personally. My first erotic stories were fetish because I came across the fetish groups on Yahoo, read the few posted stories, and thought 'I can do better than that'.

Like you with mother/son incest stories, I write a story but include the fetish as an integral part of the plot. It seems to work, but as I have said many times before I'm stuck on one particular fetish. I have a part written story that is intended to include 'South Indian Women's Hairy and Sweaty Armpits' but I can't make the story work.

That is a shame because there are several Adult Yahoo Groups for that fetish and their membership runs into tens of thousands.

Maybe I'll succeed someday.

Never mind yahoo there is a woman from India(claims so anyway) that has started a couple of threads about an armpit humiliation fetish. So you know at least one person here is dying for that story

 

[lovecraft68]

I have a character in my current series who would LOVE those armpits. You can borrow her if you like. She's not terribly busy right now.

What an interesting concept; character swapping!

hey LC seeing SWB is done what's the ex druggie turned goth artists Megan doing these days? She's still fucking her brother? Well, listen I need to have her do me a favor....

 

[Serafina1210]

What an interesting concept; character swapping!

hey LC seeing SWB is done what's the ex druggie turned goth artists Megan doing these days? She's still fucking her brother? Well, listen I need to have her do me a favor....

Hey, now that I think of it, my guy Andrew had a sister named Megan ...

 

[NearMiss]

I'm a Grossman fan

I've read and like Grossman a lot. In fact I just finished reading his latest "Magicians Land", and although I didn't like it as much as the others (yet), my review of it is for a different thread.

At first I didn't necessarily agree with his premise that fantasy is emotionally raw. I mean fantasy to me has always been about the grand lie. The author can do and say things that wouldn't be able to do in real life.

I guess I should be looking at it like "all good stories come from within". Like any good piece of art, if you haven't put a good part of yourself into it, it will come across as flat and emotionless. I suppose that would be the 'emotionally raw' he was referring to. This would absolutely extend to erotic literature in my opinion, probably even more so. Where else can you run the entire gamut of emotions from say a single nights encounter?

And trolls? I'll agree that they use this emotional connection to their advantage and I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been hurt by nasty comments. But while I continue to learn and grow as a writer and a person, they will always be bitter little trolls.

 

[Serafina1210]

At first I didn't necessarily agree with his premise that fantasy is emotionally raw. I mean fantasy to me has always been about the grand lie. The author can do and say things that wouldn't be able to do in real life.

I guess I should be looking at it like "all good stories come from within". Like any good piece of art, if you haven't put a good part of yourself into it, it will come across as flat and emotionless. I suppose that would be the 'emotionally raw' he was referring to. This would absolutely extend to erotic literature in my opinion, probably even more so. Where else can you run the entire gamut of emotions from say a single nights encounter?

He does seem to be claiming that fantasy had an "emotional rawness" that more "serious" fiction doesn't have, and at first, anyway, the claim doesn't feel right. With some writers, the seriousness of the project can feel like a wall they build around themselves. But when you get to individual cases, it doesn't seem right. Think of Foer (whom he mentions) in Everything Is Illuminated. That feels pretty darn raw to me.

I think maybe Grossman is talking about what writing feels like to him. He's able to achieve an emotional quality with fantasy that he couldn't in his attempts at "serious" fiction.

I spent many years turning over plans for novels in my head and not writing them. Then I got an idea for a story about a group of whores doing filthy things, and before I knew it I'd written 60,000 words. It wasn't very good, but it was emotionally raw.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I rarely fantasize about anything. I'm too cognitive and analytical. My fantasies involve projecting ideas onto real life appliances. I came to psychotherapy from engineering. Engineers imagine bridges. And, when I write, the outcome is bridging the gap from point A to point B. Its 100% manipulation. Like my new project...how do you make an 80 year old man attractive to a woman half his age. I knew such a guy, at eighty he looked like Mister Clean only a lot better.