Following my Own Advice

[Ellafun]

Note: I am posting this in the Cafe instead of on the main board because my favorite posters usually hang out in here...

I have been posting here on Lit for....awhile...and I have come to trust, value and respect the fine advice that youse guys who lurk in the How To offer the community. Sometimes I even post advice in the How To if it is something about which I feel adequately educated. I now find myself hoping that you might be able to help me with finding a way to approach a problem I'm having.

So here's the issue: As many times as I have advised someone that "communication" is the best way to help in relationship matters, I am at a complete loss as to how to approach sexual subjects with my SO of 28 years. I become tongue-tied and flustered.

For example, last night while we were in bed, for the first time ever, I brought up something that has literally bothered me about our sex life since...ALWAYS. We were lying there in the dark because I thought it would be easier for me to express myself. (self confidence issues much? Yeah, separate thread...) I was met with dead silence. I tried again, mentioning that I know it isn't fair of me to think he can read my mind. Eventually, he cautiously asked me what it is I wanted him to do and I honestly didn't know how to...what to... ~sigh~

How do I get over this hesitation to tell him what I want? Where to touch? How to touch? I've tried drinking before approaching this conversation and it doesn't turn out so well, so that's not going to do it. Writing letters? Watching porn? Making him read my stories...again? Any other time I can talk up a storm, just not when it comes to talking about THIS. Why, after all these years together is this still so damn hard??

Any guidance you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Even if it's snarky. Thanks, guys & gals.

el.

 

[NippleMuncher]

Good communication is 100% the key, however, there are any number of reasons that it does not exist, especially if one partner is unable to communicate and unwilling to change for the sake of the relationship.

The place to talk about sex is NOT in the bedroom, you want to do it in a neutral area of the house, in the car, or other private place. There is too much performance pressure in the bedroom that can create anxieties on both sides.

The issue would seem to be about something that he is doing or not doing, ease into this with plenty of positive praise on his good traits first. Make it clear that you are not criticizing his performance, just that it needs a little polishing on this one issue.

As to why you are uncomfortable with the topic, again, there are any number of reasons, most likely it is due to what you think his reaction is going to be when you tell him. Reassurance is your way through this, as I said, spotlight what he's doing right before bringing up the problem issue.

 

[NightL]

The place to talk about sex is NOT in the bedroom

Yeah - no

You can get your message across in a playful and loving manner in the bedroom.
Can start with you saying "Tonight I am in charge - I am going to guide you and tell you exactly what I want. Follow me in this and I promise you will get a fuck like never before. Be timid and run and you will never know what it can be like."

You can turn this into a game - offer a night in return where your partner is in charge. Maybe you both will learn of new desires and wants. Make it light-hearted and fun.

I would worry that if you sit around the kitchen table and make it all serious then it could raise up a whole lot of insecurities from both - then both be nervous as hell the next time you have sex.

Take his hand and guide him - this is how I need to be touched - you apply the movement and pressure until he gets it - ask him to listen to your breathing - how long do you like that process - what next when you ramp up a gear - tell him how you like to be touched and held leading up to an orgasm and after. Let him know your cues for change of approach and intensity. Every partner is going to be different and personally I love that time of discovery and communication.

For me the place/time is indeed during sex. It can be fun and light hearted and you can laugh off attempts that go astray - but keep trying - keep talking. I love a partner who is self assured and willing to tell me exactly what they want - I find it sexy as all hell.

 

[NightL]

How do I get over this hesitation to tell him what I want? Where to touch? How to touch?

I just want to reinforce what I previously said - if you keep it within the fun and play while including a "I am serious about this though" it will be much easier to communicate than viewing the situation as one of total seriousness that requires a sit down approach. The serious approach just builds up walls before you even get a word out.

Sex is fun and loving and expressing your needs/desires fits perfectly within that.

 

[GiggLeGasm]

I'm going to go against the grain on this one and revert back to advice I've shared with my children.

It's easy to say "you should be able to talk about sex anywhere" and, in a relationship where it's all working, I believe it is true. When you're still figuring out how to communicate though, it's difficult to do it on the very stage where you want it to happen.

I would never tell people who are learning to play baseball
"just go to Yankee Stadium and hit some balls.. see what happens."
You first go to some small field someplace and play catch.

If you're only willing to discuss sex in the bedroom.. with the lights off.. it doesn't really send the message that sex is a topic for open discussion. It implies boundaries. There is a good chance that, after 28 years, he's learned to navigate the boundaries of your sexual relationship and may be just as uncomfortable with this subject as you are. I don't think the discussion should be about specific sexual desires at all as much as it is the fact that the two of you are different people than you were 28 years ago. Your changes are normal, but I can imagine him laying beside you in bed wondering what his next move is supposed to be.

Practice with non-sexual things. If there are things that you normally let him take charge of, don't be afraid to share an opinion. Learn to say I want..
I want to change the bathroom towels.
I want fish for dinner.
I want to give you a blow job - oops.. how did that one slip in there?

Don't be afraid of disappointing him or hurting his feelings by saying.. "I'd like the next 28 years to be even better." I don't think there is a man alive who doesn't want to know that his partner wants to have sex with him for the rest of his life.

and I guess the last thing I'd say right now is..

Congratulations on twenty-eight years of marriage, on still having the guts to work on it, and on being willing to reach out. You are a wonderful example.

 

[GiggLeGasm]

I was referring to the setting selected by Ella.. and only to suggest that he might respond better elsewhere. In no way did I mean to imply that your suggestions were inappropriate.. they were great.

 

[SweetErika]

I don't agree with the whole don't talk about sex in the bedroom thing. I think you can talk about sex anywhere private. The bedroom is just another room, there's no need to think talking in it is some serious communication faux pax. It's not. You DON'T want to blurt that shit out mid-sexy time though... ya know? Time and place.

For me, talking is always most productive after sex (if I haven't already fallen asleep). When we're both happy and feeling good about it and ourselves. Plus, I find the fresher the memory of GOOD sex, the more open he is to the idea of BETTER sex. Maybe that's just us... but there it is.

I think the key is to say everything with as positive spin as you can. Choose words wisely. It's difficult if you're especially frustrated about not feeling heard about the same thing time and time again, but it's easier to hear "You are so good at X so I'd like to try more X WITH more Y" Than "yeah X is not really working for me why can't you just X AND Y"

As for why you can't talk to him. I think it can be harder to talk to people we are emotionally invested in, for 28 years, than it can strangers on the internet. You are not invested in how a stranger on the internet might feel, might think of you, might treat you as a result of what you're saying. You're just saying it.... if you know what I mean? Sure you might care, but you don't really CARE.

If what you're trying to communicate you KNOW will be shot down, it's even harder, but can be worth putting yourself out there for in the end.

Great advice, Rainshine, and I think you're spot on regarding the part in bold! I'm probably a lot like Ella; I can talk about nearly anything here, but it's far more difficult to broach some of those same topics with my husband. I think it has a lot to do with investment and potential RL consequences. Yes, I really do care about my fellow Litsters and have invested a ton of time and effort here, yet I've been with my husband my entire adult life, and there's a lot to lose if something goes really wrong!

Ella, you have a lot to lose if your partner's feelings are irreparably hurt by whatever you bring up. However, you are one smart, observant, caring cookie, and you need to trust yourself to do your absolute best to approach more difficult topics in a loving, thoughtful way. Your happy 28 years together is hard evidence that you two can (and already have/do) communicate about the toughest stuff effectively! Can you think about the logical reasons why you should bring this sexual issue up and consider the worst reasonable outcome if there were to be a miscommunication or misunderstanding? Also, consider how YOU would feel if your partner had been keeping a similar thing from you for all this time. Don't feel guilty about not communicating sooner, just use that as motivation to talk sooner rather than later. Surely your guy doesn't want to continue on the same path if there's a better one available, right? At least I find those types of ideas helpful when I'm worried about stuff and tempted to keep my mouth shut.

You can do this, you just need to approach it in one of the ways that you've found effective over the past 28 years. Or try a new approach that sits well with your topic and intuition, given the vast amount you know about yourself and your partner. Challenge yourself to take your own advice and see that it will work out, even if that reasonable worst-case scenario does occur.

 

[silverwhisper]

ella, i find it telling that you can't express what it is even here.

i'm not sure what it is you want him to do differently, but it's going up against almost 3 decades of you not having said anything. that inertia is a powerful force, as you are experiencing.

maybe if you're having so much difficulty expressing it, how about showing him instead? preface it by saying, "listen, i want to show you what it is i want by doing it to you" and then doing it, perhaps that would be more helpful for both of you?

ed

 

[Ellafun]

ella, i find it telling that you can't express what it is even here.

i'm not sure what it is you want him to do differently, but it's going up against almost 3 decades of you not having said anything. that inertia is a powerful force, as you are experiencing.

ed

Thank you to everyone who has commented; I knew I could count on you to give me honest help.

I feel like I should elaborate on some history a little more. *deep breath* Back in high school...my first real boyfriend (not my husband) and I were engaged in some heavy petting. He touched me in a way that was really painful, so I grabbed his hand and told him to stop, with the intention of showing him what was better. He got out of bed, stormed out of the house, and a week later we broke up. From that moment on, I equated "speak up" with "he's going to leave." I didn't even need to pay a therapist for that gem.

Somehow, in every sexual relationship I ever had after that, my needs always seemed to come in second or not at all. I know some Litsters have heard me talk about the fact that I have never been on the receiving end of oral sex. True story. (please don't tell me you're sorry to hear this. Believe me, so am I!) Beyond that, for some reason I always had it in my head that it was my responsibility to make sure that my partner reached orgasm. I never expected that same effort in return because it never happened. Take that mindset into when I met my husband and you can see that a pattern was established a long, long time ago. This is what I'm trying to change. This is why it's so hard to talk about it with him. It's frustrating on a number of levels.

Add to the recipe a husband who is anxious about having sex in our house because our teenagers might hear (the reason whispered conversations often happen in the dark, btw) and I find myself living in 1954.

Please don't quote this post, because god knows I'll probably edit it out...but for the benefit of disclosure, I thought it would give you a bit more insight into my lack of confidence in just putting my foot down, so to speak. I love my husband more than life. I just really wish that I could have an orgasm during sex, too.

 

[NightL]

While I enjoy discussion and guidance from my partners during sex and see no reason to make it a boardroom issue when it can be just part of the fun - what you describe probably needs a bit of hand holding. I strongly suggest you seek the advice of a sex therapist. Perhaps just make an appointment for yourself first. Ask advice from the therapist on how you may approach your husband and hopefully encourage him to attend as well.

With a quick google this popped up which seemed as good as any for those who are unsure what a sex therapist does:
http://www.womansday.com/sex-relati...hings-you-didnt-know-about-sex-therapy-100641

Life is short - reward yourself on this one - make it work.

 

[silverwhisper]

ella, couldn't you just forward this thread to him? i mean, assuming he's otherwise a good guy, i gotta imagine he'd probably want to know this, no?

ed

 

[silverwhisper]

just curious: why so emphatic? feeling cranky?

ed

 

[Saucyminx]

Hiya Ella.

You might want to try the "I've been reading about or saw on Dr. Phil" approach and say, " do you think maybe we could try "this" for something different for a change. " When he sees the spectacular results, and that post orgasmic glow, he will probably want to try it again.

That way you get a small victory, giving you more confidence to be more open about what you want, and doesn't come at him in a manner threatening to his man mojo. Just a thought--and baby steps aren't necessarily a bad thing.

As for the no oral--I had a friend who admitted to me that she had never had an orgasm with a partner, only by herself. My first thought was--challenge accepted. Has your partner never brought that subject up, or does he seem adverse to it? He may not realize you would be open to it.

Does he watch any porn or do you ever watch together? if so what kind?

Anyway--best of luck tootse. It's a hard situation to be in--and many moons ago, one I could relate to.

 

[Ellafun]

Hiya Ella.

You might want to try the "I've been reading about or saw on Dr. Phil" approach and say, " do you think maybe we could try "this" for something different for a change. " When he sees the spectacular results, and that post orgasmic glow, he will probably want to try it again.

That way you get a small victory, giving you more confidence to be more open about what you want, and doesn't come at him in a manner threatening to his man mojo. Just a thought--and baby steps aren't necessarily a bad thing.

As for the no oral--I had a friend who admitted to me that she had never had an orgasm with a partner, only by herself. My first thought was--challenge accepted. Has your partner never brought that subject up, or does he seem adverse to it? He may not realize you would be open to it.

Does he watch any porn or do you ever watch together? if so what kind?

Anyway--best of luck tootse. It's a hard situation to be in--and many moons ago, one I could relate to.

Well, he knows I'm on Lit. We have also had more than one conversation about the oral. He is not very enthusiastic about it.

In our house, it is virtually impossible to have any real privacy. We don't watch any porn, unless you count American Horror Story. We have two children (almost 18, 20) who still live at home. While we have a lock on our door, it still makes him anxious if he thinks that we can be heard, so we take our moments when the kids are out and even then, he keeps on ear on the door the entire time. He also has a habit of falling asleep early, because he has to be up so early. Sort of puts a cramp in the schedule.

Again, a huge thank you to everyone who has taken the time to post. And NightL, thank you for the article. I have thought about therapy before. I may have to revisit that with his input. Thank you, again.

 

[Ellafun]

Absoloutely not. Forwarding this thread is a shitty idea.

Ella, I would fly to your house, destroy your computer, your smart phone (go down on you!!!) and then erase any trace of this thread, before I'd let you show him it.

(Dramatic, maybe. I really just wanted an excuse to go down on you after reading this again.)

Seriously though, this is not a situation you want to shove in his face like an internet thread.

lol...Now there's the snark I've come to expect!!

 

[unregistered]

 

[Ellafun]

Ella, thanks for trusting us here. While most of us are literally strangers, we've got an awesome group of people here. I think you've gotten some great advice so far. Having been in a very similar situation, I can tell you the "I saw this on Dr. Phil" line has worked for me. It's very touchy to bring up something that could hurt your partner, but you can phrase it in a way that does not blame him, but rather reveals your curiosity. (Curiosity in the bedroom is hot, by the way).

Can you two get away for a weekend? Send away the kids?

I wish we could. We actually had some alone time this weekend, which was when I brought this up to him. It was a first step, but I realized how difficult it was for me to verbalize (which, if you knew me is tremendously ironic). This was the first place I thought of to seek help.

 

[Saucyminx]

Well, he knows I'm on Lit. We have also had more than one conversation about the oral. He is not very enthusiastic about it.

In our house, it is virtually impossible to have any real privacy. We don't watch any porn, unless you count American Horror Story. We have two children (almost 18, 20) who still live at home. While we have a lock on our door, it still makes him anxious if he thinks that we can be heard, so we take our moments when the kids are out and even then, he keeps on ear on the door the entire time. He also has a habit of falling asleep early, because he has to be up so early. Sort of puts a cramp in the schedule.

Again, a huge thank you to everyone who has taken the time to post. And NightL, thank you for the article. I have thought about therapy before. I may have to revisit that with his input. Thank you, again.

Ha! I love American Horror Story--the scene in the first season where Dylan McDermott was stroking had me fanning myself.

My soon to be 18 year old informed me once that my bed squeaks and did his best impression. We had a big laugh about it but we are pretty open about sex, and we are just weird.

It's a tough situation for you Ella. Big big hugs! Did he ever mention why he is unenthusiastic about oral? Did he have a bad experience at some point or just not interested?

 

[Ellafun]

Ha! I love American Horror Story--the scene in the first season where Dylan McDermott was stroking had me fanning myself.

My soon to be 18 year old informed me once that my bed squeaks and did his best impression. We had a big laugh about it but we are pretty open about sex, and we are just weird.

It's a tough situation for you Ella. Big big hugs! Did he ever mention why he is unenthusiastic about oral? Did he have a bad experience at some point or just not interested?

Thanks for your input and your hugs! He just isn't interested. He has no problem with me going down on him. (Neither do I, for that matter.) I keep myself clean, shaved...hell, I've even offered to bathe myself in Jim Beam. It's just not part of the routine. I never really thought we were sending our kids the wrong message about normal, married, healthy sex...but then again my parents wouldn't have addressed that issue in a million years. I guess we really don't address it openly, either. I never really thought about that before...

 

[Saucyminx]

Thanks for your input and your hugs! He just isn't interested. He has no problem with me going down on him. (Neither do I, for that matter.) I keep myself clean, shaved...hell, I've even offered to bathe myself in Jim Beam. It's just not part of the routine. I never really thought we were sending our kids the wrong message about normal, married, healthy sex...but then again my parents wouldn't have addressed that issue in a million years. I guess we really don't address it openly, either. I never really thought about that before...

Every family deals with that issue individually the way they are comfortable with it. There is no right or wrong. I grew up in a household where my "talk" was Mom handed me a pamplet about puberty and said if you have any questions, ask your sister.

So I swore open book policy--and actually that comment was made after my marriage had been over and I had a lover who I had been seeing for over a year, who finally met my kids, and was invited to stay over. My son just happens to be a ball buster--not sure where he got that.

 

[Lord Pmann]

I think what you were trying to say here is that you really wanted my input. I think everyone knew that.

I've got very quick advice. Don't hold onto this kind of stuff. The longer you hold on to things, when they finally come out, it's exponentially more difficult. If your husband loves you, he will love you even when you have to face difficult conversations. As someone who has a tendency to bury stuff to not disturb the waters, I can assure you that never helps the situation.

I had it recently explained to me like this...

Every time you hang on to something like that, it's a weight. A small weight, let's say a one pound weight. Every time he doesn't touch you the way you like and you hold it in, add another weight. Well, now you're holding 500lbs of weight and, when you eventually talk to your husband about it, he gets that 500lbs dropped on him.

I don't say that to be judgmental; not at all. I'm as guilty as can be about stuff like that. I empathize with you. But those tough conversations help. I promise.

Best of luck. And, if you need someone to video Rainshine going down on you, I'm one of very few people to have a cell phone with video capabilities. Don't bother researching that, just trust me on it.

 

[GrrlFriday]

There are worse things than knowing your parents are still intimate - wondering if their love died long ago and they're only together for financial reasons, for example. It can give the kids a sense of hope for continued love and intimacy with their own spouses when they're older.

You don't need to address the issue openly. You shouldn't even be addressing it solely for your kids - you need to put yourself first, and let the accompanying benefits for your spouse (confidence) and kids (hope) roll on from there.

I know it's not as simple or easy as that, but you've already been married for 28 years, and noone can do that without having some serious tenacity - which is exactly what you need to begin work on changing the bits that don't work. Have courage. *hugs*

 

[Cathleen]

Ella, I'm a bit confused. I'm clear on the lack of oral but are you saying he has never brought you to orgasm? You state that you feel it's your responsibility for his orgasm but haven't had that in return. Is this issue about not having an orgasm (not withstand the lack of oral)?

 

[Paul_Chance]

Some Tools

I've always like the tool box approach to problem solving - where you have a variety of things you can try. Let me add to the variety:

1. Privacy

Living with children can be a challenge, especially is the house or apartment does not provide naturally private areas. Since your children are teenagers, I would suggest you sit them down and lay out the privacy rules and tell them explicitly that there are times when you and spouse need your alone time. Then, you make arrangements for the kids to be elsewhere - and include a specific return time. (Like - "you will go to your friends house for the evening. We will come and pick you up at 10:00 PM. You will not come home before then.") Then, once you have the time blocked out - lock the doors so they can only be opened from the inside to prevent interruptions. This will give you the safe space to have the communication.

2. Back to Back

Take whatever difficult subject you want to talk about and write a few concise paragraphs on the subject. Then, explain to him how the exercise works. You will go first and read what is written on the paper. Once you have finished, he can respond to what it written - either ask a question, or make a statement. Then, you can respond, and finally he can respond to your response. You each get two chances to talk. You can do a dry run (or several) talking about ordinary non-significant things to get the exercise format down. This position allows you both to express yourselves in a non-confrontational format.

3. Face to Face

If you're comfortable that the problem is not a potential confrontation, but rather just a difficult subject matter, then, simply sit face to face but follow the same model - first, you (or he) read what is written, then second, he responds, third, you respond, fourth he responds again. Then assess. If you are both still into it, run another cycle. If one or both of you are uncomfortable, they can take the opportunity to write it down.

Always remember to keep the written statement short - a few simple sentences, nothing long, nothing elaborate. If you want, work your way up to the sexual core of the conversation by simply talking about other incidents and issues.

LOL - finally, a bit of amusement - when I was involved with a woman who had three kids, in order to have private conversations we would a.) close and block the door with a chair, b.) turn the stereo on to about medium, and c.) climb into bed and pull the covers over our head - with a cell phone. If her kids needed anything, they could call the cell (rather then knocking at the door). It worked well.

 

[Ellafun]

Ella, I'm a bit confused. I'm clear on the lack of oral but are you saying he has never brought you to orgasm? You state that you feel it's your responsibility for his orgasm but haven't had that in return. Is this issue about not having an orgasm (not withstand the lack of oral)?

There was a time, a long, long time ago, when we still had actual foreplay (I can almost remember what that was like...I think...) when I would orgasm. I cannot honestly tell you the last time I had an orgasm from penetrative sex outside of a vibrator. 2 issues, one this-is-my-sex life.