Votes aren't that important. BUT...

[Zeb_Carter]

Yes. My stories get a fine reception here no matter where they post. It's the trolls chomping at them because of my forum posts only that makes it look otherwise.

So, you think I would both to take the time to go find your stories, although that part is easy, and then one bomb the hell out of them?

If you do you're wrong ten ways from hell.

I could care less about what you write or how they do.

I am indifferent to you and your writings.

You're just another JBJ crying about your stories being trolled because you're a big ass here on the forums.

 

[sr71plt]

No, Zeb, it never entered my mind that you were doing that. Since you seem to be sensitive to and defensive about the issue, though, it's certainly worth another thought.

No, you fell out with me because you are a reactionary, tin-foil-hatted pea brain and you didn't like how a whole bunch of us reacted to your silly political posts. You left and came back a bit (just a bit) reinvented--but still on the personal attack. You're just a gnat here as far as I'm concerned.

 

[JKendallDane]

That is the problem. Readers who want to read about bisexual men generally have zero interest in bisexual women - and vice versa.

I'll say it again as I believe I've expressed before: the lack of a Bisexual category at Lit is not based on some refusal on our part of acknowledge Bisexuality. We totally recognize it, personally and societally. There is no sociopolitical agenda at work. We completely embrace and support the entire spectrum of adult sexuality.

A generic Bisexual category just doesn't make sense as a story classification.

When you start talking about adding separate Bisexual Female and Bisexual male categories - at that point, these are things that are better served by Story Tags.

To be honest, in the year 2014 and going forward I think the Categories are less important to readers as far as navigation goes. Honestly, I think that it makes more sense to move towards on subdividing and focusing the categories we have now - via Story Tags (by authors and eventually allowing readers to tag as well), Public Story Reading Lists, and other forms of navigation than to add another category. Readers want more specificity, not broader groupings.

Anyone that understands search engine optimization (SEO), knows that tags can be crucial to having a site, or a single page on one, seen. That not only applies to Lit's internal search engine, but also being able to have your submissions picked up and ranked on a first page via Google and other internet searches.

Laurel's post nudged me to a quick search of five different specific story tags and found some very interesting results.

Searching 'bisexual' came back with 5115 story hits and the category breakdown was as follows:

*1332 in 'Group Sex'

* 920 in 'Gay Male'

* 462 in 'Lesbian Sex'

* 403 in 'Incest'

* 344 in (gasp!) 'Loving Wives'

* 232 in 'BDSM'

* 204 in 'Trans/XDress'

The rest were spread across virtually EVERY other category on the site...even Humor and Celebrity. So I guess that pretty much disproves that *ANY* gay or lesbian action automatically gets trumped to those two categories.


The next two searches were for "mmf" and "mff" and those came back with:

MMF with 2826 story hits...1196 of them in 'Group'

MFF with 1038 story hits...441 of them again in 'Group'


The last two searches were specifically for "bisexual male" and for "bisexual female"and the results were:

*bisexual male with 1374 hits but only 598 of the stories were in 'Gay Male'

*bisexual female had 1301 hits and only 290 of them in 'Lesbian'

One other thing I noticed while doing a quick perusal of the actual results that were displayed, the bisexual stories seemed to have a very respectable share of red H's attached to them, whether they were in GM, Lesbian, or any of all the other categories.

Kind of looks like all this weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth with the ongoing regurgitation of "disparity" and "cause and effect" is akin to yelling at the sun for daring to come up too early each morning.

Course, YMMV always applies.

 

[sr71plt]

Once again you mistake where one has to choose to post a story and what readers have to do to find them (and what happens to them if someone reading them in, say, Romance, wasn't expecting to find a gay or lesbian story there--and then voted and commented from not believing they belong there). It's unbelievable how stubbornly dense you on these points.

All of your stories are posted to GM. You have absolutely no experience in the comparative reaction to MM stories posted anywhere else.

I'm not sure how many find their stories here by keyword search--I wouldn't know how to begin doing that. I do know that the Web site puts the keywords at the end of the story, rather than at the beginning of them, so that readers clicking on a story and wanting keyword help, has to click to the end to find that help.

As far as Laurel having made clear before her position on having a bi category, I've never seen an explanation from her before (and I don't see anything in her explanation that wouldn't equally apply to all those hetero categories we have here--they all subdivide. We have thread after thread on the problems in this way with the Loving Wives category). One would think that Laurel would give some sort of explanation to the bi category poll thread that has been running at the top of the GBLT forum (that category itself a good example of how disastrous it is to lump all sorts of preferences in one forum) for months. But I don't see any posting from her there. It's all a shell game, folks.

 

[lovecraft68]

Anyone that understands search engine optimization (SEO), knows that tags can be crucial to having a site, or a single page on one, seen. That not only applies to Lit's internal search engine, but also being able to have your submissions picked up and ranked on a first page via Google and other internet searches.

Laurel's post nudged me to a quick search of five different specific story tags and found some very interesting results.

Searching 'bisexual' came back with 5115 story hits and the category breakdown was as follows:

*1332 in 'Group Sex'

* 920 in 'Gay Male'

* 462 in 'Lesbian Sex'

* 403 in 'Incest'

* 344 in (gasp!) 'Loving Wives'

* 232 in 'BDSM'

* 204 in 'Trans/XDress'

The rest were spread across virtually EVERY other category on the site...even Humor and Celebrity. So I guess that pretty much disproves that *ANY* gay or lesbian action automatically gets trumped to those two categories.


The next two searches were for "mmf" and "mff" and those came back with:

MMF with 2826 story hits...1196 of them in 'Group'

MFF with 1038 story hits...441 of them again in 'Group'


The last two searches were specifically for "bisexual male" and for "bisexual female"and the results were:

*bisexual male with 1374 hits but only 598 of the stories were in 'Gay Male'

*bisexual female had 1301 hits and only 290 of them in 'Lesbian'

One other thing I noticed while doing a quick perusal of the actual results that were displayed, the bisexual stories seemed to have a very respectable share of red H's attached to them, whether they were in GM, Lesbian, or any of all the other categories.

Kind of looks like all this weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth with the ongoing regurgitation of "disparity" and "cause and effect" is akin to yelling at the sun for daring to come up too early each morning.

Course, YMMV always applies.

That shows where and how many but my question would ne how well they are received in each due to for lack of better term squick factor

 

[JKendallDane]

That shows where and how many but my question would ne how well they are received in each due to for lack of better term squick factor

That's why I looked through several pages of the story results from the tag search and added this at the end of my post:

One other thing I noticed while doing a quick perusal of the actual results that were displayed, the bisexual stories seemed to have a very respectable share of red H's attached to them, whether they were in GM, Lesbian, or any of all the other categories.

Granted, I didn't go into a bunch of individual stories to see what kind of comments were added, but I figured if a bisex story was popping red H's in 'Group' or 'Incest' or 'Romance' then the overall reception would seem to counter the "maxed-the-squick-factor" crowd.

 

[sr71plt]

The essential, unavoidable point is that you have absolutely no comparative experience on the topic and are stubbornly arguing against someone who does have the experience here.

I happy to leave you in the state. I channel all of my MM material to GM now (some of those you found in other categories were mine) because of the differences I see in the reception of the stories. (Not to mention the e-mails I was getting suggesting areas I could write MM stories in that I had written stories in--just not posted them to GM--and the requestor was only looking in GM for MM stories.)

Rail all you want. The inequity is there. No, I don't expect it to be changed. I also don't fall to the shell game of continued smugness that there are no inequities in the system here--by those with absolutely no experience on the issue.

 

[Laurel]

Anyone that understands search engine optimization (SEO), knows that tags can be crucial to having a site, or a single page on one, seen. That not only applies to Lit's internal search engine, but also being able to have your submissions picked up and ranked on a first page via Google and other internet searches.

Laurel's post nudged me to a quick search of five different specific story tags and found some very interesting results.

Searching 'bisexual' came back with 5115 story hits and the category breakdown was as follows:

*1332 in 'Group Sex'

* 920 in 'Gay Male'

* 462 in 'Lesbian Sex'

* 403 in 'Incest'

* 344 in (gasp!) 'Loving Wives'

* 232 in 'BDSM'

* 204 in 'Trans/XDress'

The rest were spread across virtually EVERY other category on the site...even Humor and Celebrity. So I guess that pretty much disproves that *ANY* gay or lesbian action automatically gets trumped to those two categories.


The next two searches were for "mmf" and "mff" and those came back with:

MMF with 2826 story hits...1196 of them in 'Group'

MFF with 1038 story hits...441 of them again in 'Group'


The last two searches were specifically for "bisexual male" and for "bisexual female"and the results were:

*bisexual male with 1374 hits but only 598 of the stories were in 'Gay Male'

*bisexual female had 1301 hits and only 290 of them in 'Lesbian'

One other thing I noticed while doing a quick perusal of the actual results that were displayed, the bisexual stories seemed to have a very respectable share of red H's attached to them, whether they were in GM, Lesbian, or any of all the other categories.

Kind of looks like all this weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth with the ongoing regurgitation of "disparity" and "cause and effect" is akin to yelling at the sun for daring to come up too early each morning.

Course, YMMV always applies.

Wow. Nice work.

 

[sr71plt]

Yep, it fits right in with the shell game. Find a statistical answer to something that wasn't the point.

Why don't you go over and close out on the long-running, wheel's spinning thread on the bi category poll? You know you aren't going to do anything about it.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

No, Zeb, it never entered my mind that you were doing that. Since you seem to be sensitive to and defensive about the issue, though, it's certainly worth another thought.

No, you fell out with me because you are a reactionary, tin-foil-hatted pea brain and you didn't like how a whole bunch of us reacted to your silly political posts. You left and came back a bit (just a bit) reinvented--but still on the personal attack. You're just a gnat here as far as I'm concerned.

Well at least I'm not like you, a dickhead.

And just to set things straight, I wouldn't take my precious time to even troll you stories here at Lit or wherever they may be published. It's just simply a waste of my time. In fact this time I'm using to tell you this is about all I will surrender on wasting on you.

 

[JKendallDane]

Once again you mistake where one has to choose to post a story and what readers have to do to find them (and what happens to them if someone reading them in, say, Romance, wasn't expecting to find a gay or lesbian story there--and then voted and commented from not believing they belong there). It's unbelievable how stubbornly dense you on these points.

All of your stories are posted to GM. You have absolutely no experience in the comparative reaction to MM stories posted anywhere else.

I'm "stubbornly dense" about it because you keep sidestepping the issue of (as far as GM) we have a category where virtually any well written story or series (regardless of plot or "kink" theme) is accepted by the readers, but you keep clamoring on and on about some perceived handicap. The stats I posted says that bisexual (whether it's mmf or mff) is found in every category and they don't seem to be getting nuked by readers that stumble into them. Your switch hitting MM with bisexual when you state your position isn't helping either. Apples and kumquats.

As to your poke...since I write MM, I also post them to the category designed for them...whether they are well received or not is up to the readers in GM.

I also don't have any experience flying a Blackbird either, but with the amount of books out there on the subject; when I get through my current Clive Cussler fixation; pehaps I will pick up a few and someday be able to post on chatboards like I have flown one too.

 

[lovecraft68]

That's why I looked through several pages of the story results from the tag search and added this at the end of my post:



Granted, I didn't go into a bunch of individual stories to see what kind of comments were added, but I figured if a bisex story was popping red H's in 'Group' or 'Incest' or 'Romance' then the overall reception would seem to counter the "maxed-the-squick-factor" crowd.

My bad.

I am on my phone and did not see the entire post

 

[sr71plt]

I'm happy to leave you with your own issues, Zeb. I don't give you or what you do much thought. And I didn't think you were energetic enough to be messing with the story file. Your silliness is mostly political, I have no interest in what you write, and, as I often have done, I congratulate you on the writing successes you note here, being capable of separating one's writing from one's forum posting behavior (which goes back to the original points).

You are much (much) more active here than in the story file, so I didn't think you were much aware of the story file. With the exception of a new poem, you haven't contributed anything to the Literotica story file in three years. You probably have the most Green Es of anyone here, which I congratulated you on and have highlighted myself whenever anyone has posted about Green Es--but you're sort of the Harper Lee of Literotica on that. They are all for parts of a single story in a single category--it isn't like they are for a bunch of separate stories in multiple categories.

 

[sr71plt]

I also don't have any experience flying a Blackbird either, but with the amount of books out there on the subject; when I get through my current Clive Cussler fixation; pehaps I will pick up a few and someday be able to post on chatboards like I have flown one too.

You also are quite capable of going beyond the writing-issue topic and going for the personal attack when cornered.

I do recognize that nothing's going to be done about this, so, having, to my own satisfaction, pointed to the raw truth of the issue, which other posters can make up their own minds about, I'm happy to leave the thread to the personal attackers now.

 

[JKendallDane]

You also are quite capable of going beyond the writing-issue topic and going for the personal attack when cornered.

I do recognize that nothing's going to be done about this, so, having, to my own satisfaction, pointed to the raw truth of the issue, which other posters can make up their own minds about, I'm happy to leave the thread to the personal attackers now.

Do you ever read your own posts?

Between the regular arrogant attacks on new posters in AH because you can't immediately find a list of stories they have written; the expected screeching of "ALT! ALT! ALT!" when someone that hasn't been on this forum as long as you, and starts participating without kissing your ring first; and the all-too-predictable innuendo of trolling your stories accusations anytime someone dare disagree with one of your positions...all pretty much says that personal attacks are far from unfamiliar to your own fingers.

In all seriousness...you quite often have very helpful and knowledgable information to share. Most of the time though, your overly-aggressive posting style comes across like Karl Rove lecturing Democrats on political campaign ethics, and the meat of your message gets lost.

This forum should be all about discussions between fellow authors that help each other out...not turning every thread into some kind of contest and acting as if you are the president of the debate club and the state title is on the line.

 

[lovecraft68]

New category idea

Okay, I think I have an idea of how this little debate can be resolved.

I would like to suggest a new category that would alleviate a lot of issues and make people in this thread happy.

I think we should start a category dedicated just to Pilot.

It would be all for him. It would have no genre limits because it would be all his stories.

The benefits would be that on our end we would never again have to hear about his stories are unfairly judged because of "non GM friendly readers" about how no one gets his writing-because only fans of his would go there to read- so on our end there would be no more whining.

For Pilot? It would be the best thing since, well since him! It would be just what he wants, a category about his favorite subject; him!

All Pilot all the time! Think of it, Pilot would never again have to deal with those pesky unqualified readers because as we all know any reader who likes him is obviously a qualified discerning reader.

But best of all?

In the all Pilot category?

he might actually be able to make a top list!

Maybe.

 

[SecondCircle]

Since I dabble with bisex in writing from time to time, I have found myself wanting a bisex category. As a new idea for a bisex flew in the window like a diving eagle and slapped me across the face and raked my eyes out, I was considering where to put the story. I didn't dwell on it for long.

Group Sex. Duh. Right? MMF, MFM, FFM, FMM, FMF... or FFMM, FMFM, FFFM.... ugh you get the point. It all fits there. So with my story, I thought yeah it goes in group. I got to thinking... even if there was a bisex category... would a MMF story even go there? That's group sex. Goes to group right? The readers at GS actually love the bisexual group stuff submitted there, it's already a part of their niche.

So then... how do you have a bisexual story? A true one? A straight guy experimenting with another guy? Guy+Guy fits GM too well. Those stories I've seen at GM and do well. Two girls that are bisexual? Technically that's a Girl+Girl story. Fits Lesbian sex better, and THAT is well received there as well.

So what then? Are "Bisex Category" stories just two bisexual people? A series where a guy has sex with his wife in one chapter and his boyfriend in the next? Seems like the characters involved have to actively be involved with both sexes simultaneously to be really "bisex" right? Otherwise it's just another form of GM or LS that is already well received.

I dunno. That's kinda that. From an author's "how I submit" standpoint.

As far as there being like twenty hetero categories and only one of each same sex category, I don't really see it as a disadvantage. When you say it like that it makes you think "huh. That is kinda unfair to a submitting author."

But... it's the way that makes sense to me. I mean, what are we gonna do? Add Gay Romance and Lesbian BDSM and Gay Horror and Gay Erotic Couplings and Lesbian Loving Wives? Just a whole other half of Lit dedicated to same sex categories for every scenario?

As a reader, I would be fucking BAFFLED. There would be so many split ends that they stop becoming categories and are TAGS. Anyway, the categories are primarily for readers, that they might read in their chosen niche. Each category does a good job of harnessing the main elements of the story.

Male+Male. GM. I wanna read a romance involving two men. Easiest found in GM. Click.

Gangbang. I click group. Assholes? Click Anal. Femdom? Bdsm. Scary story? Succubus? Try EH or NH. Hot girl with a cock? TS/CD

I mean you can only split so many hairs. I wrote a romance horror? How come there's all these "non horror" categories and just one for my EH Romance?

Ow! Shit! Another story idea just hit me in the fucking face! Its about this girl who loves a vampire, then meets a werewolf....

 

[JKendallDane]

Ow! Shit! Another story idea just hit me in the fucking face! Its about this girl who loves a vampire, then meets a werewolf....

Make it a series about a guy that loves a vampire and then meets a hunky werewolf. That plot bunny just might give robcub32's 'Timber Pack Chronicles' a run for the chunk of the All Time Top Ten list he owns.

Your other comments are exactly what I was talking about when I said that I see GM as a smorgasboard and having a synergistic effect by NOT having a half dozen or more sub-categories.

 

[JKendallDane]

But best of all?

In the all Pilot category?

he might actually be able to make a top list!

Maybe.

Now let's be fair. Pilot does hit the top lists.

He currently has positions 53, 58, and 62 of the Top 150 for the last 30 days in GM.

He also has number 118 and 236 in the Top 250 for the past twelve months.

He does consistently have the top slot on the "Most Popular" author list on the GM main category page. (but usually half that list is made up of authors with very few gay male stories, but at least 300+ others spread around the site)

And he is in the Top 10 "Most Prolific" list of authors.

 

[lovecraft68]

Now let's be fair. Pilot does hit the top lists.

He currently has positions 53, 58, and 62 of the Top 150 for the last 30 days in GM.

He also has number 118 and 236 in the Top 250 for the past twelve months.

He does consistently have the top slot on the "Most Popular" author list on the main category page. (but usually half that list is made up of authors with very few gay male stories, but at least 300+ others spread around the site)

And he is in the Top 10 "Most Prolific" list of authors.

If that were any other author I would say good for them.

But a successful mainstream author who has had dinner with the likes of Grisham and Clancy?

I would think he'd be rocking those lists owning the all time list.

Unless of course he really is just a hack like the rest of us, then I suppose those numbers are just fine.

 

[sr71plt]

The argument that category subdivision for gays and any category for bis at all isn't necessary because subdivision can get ridiculous is totally irrelevant when the point is that the inequitable subdivision for reader-accepted heterosexual stories already exists--complete with each category's story and author-highlighting separate latest/top lists and (theoretically because the Web site is incapable of just announcing the closedown of nonfunctioning services) monthly monetary award contests.

Yammer all you want, and personally attack me all you want, that's what exists no matter how much smoke you try to blow in people's eyes.

My original point is that the system of presentation and access here is skewed on the basis of sexual preference. Nothing that anyone, including Laurel, has posted to this thread has successfully refuted that.

 

[SecondCircle]

The argument that category subdivision for gays and any category for bis at all isn't necessary because subdivision can get ridiculous is totally irrelevant when the point is that the inequitable subdivision for reader-accepted heterosexual stories already exists--complete with each category's story and author-highlighting separate latest/top lists and (theoretically because the Web site is incapable of just announcing the closedown of nonfunctioning services) monthly monetary award contests.

Yammer all you want, and personally attack me all you want, that's what exists no matter how much smoke you try to blow in people's eyes.

Its all in how you look at it. You're looking at it like one GM cat versus all hetero cats. Yes when you put it that way, it seems like "that's your water fountain over there, use that one."

I don't think of it that way. I think of it as a reader accessing their niche. Male+Male=GM. That's something to take up with the reader. That's where they will look for stories involving Gay Males.

I'm just curious here, but just like come straight to the point, how would you like it to work? (No Smartassm used here). I mean the obvious thing would be just get rid of the same sex cats and let them be submitted throughout the entire site right? With the "hetero" cats? But wouldn't that be a hindrance to readers who wanna find GM material? They'd have to search with "Gay" or "lesbian" tags ALL the time. Same with Hetero readers. To avoid gay or lesbian material that they may not like, they'd have to use the guidance of the tags to ensure it's opposite sex, right?

Is there a simpler way do you think? How would you like to see it?

 

[lovecraft68]

The argument that category subdivision for gays and any category for bis at all isn't necessary because subdivision can get ridiculous is totally irrelevant when the point is that the inequitable subdivision for reader-accepted heterosexual stories already exists--complete with each category's story and author-highlighting separate latest/top lists and (theoretically because the Web site is incapable of just announcing the closedown of nonfunctioning services) monthly monetary award contests.

Yammer all you want, and personally attack me all you want, that's what exists no matter how much smoke you try to blow in people's eyes.

My original point is that the system of presentation and access here is skewed on the basis of sexual preference. Nothing that anyone, including Laurel, has posted to this thread has successfully refuted that.

Then if this site is prejudiced which it seems you are really trying to say(and the only author I consistently see say it)

Then fucking leave.

All you do is bitch about the "unfairness"

You constantly denigrate the other authors here-Just look at my sig line, you said that and more than once.

You denigrate the readership saying no reader here is qualified to even judge a story good or bad.

You claim no one here knows what they are talking about(unless they agree with you that is)

Yet you are here all the time.

yet you have put up over 600 stories on a site where according to you all the writers and readers are idiots and you're getting pretty close to accusing the site of being homophobic.

Which is a joke of course with a GM section and forums and etc.... and back to you are the only one claiming that

So why are you here then Pilot? why waste your time on all of us idiots and post stories where you claim they don't really want them?

because you have no where else to go. You would be thrown off of any other chat board and your stories would be no better received anywhere else.

You're here because you're trying to be the big shark in the little pond and in the end you're just another guppy.

If it's so bad for you here take a hike and leave us stupid people to ourselves.

 

[PennLady]

Its all in how you look at it. You're looking at it like one GM cat versus all hetero cats. Yes when you put it that way, it seems like "that's your water fountain over there, use that one."

But to a large degree, that's what it is. There is one GM category, and one Lesbian category for readers who want those stories of same-sex couples to go to.

Look, Pilot does have a point. It's far easier, if you want to read hetero sex, to avoid the kinds of hetero sex you don't like and find the ones you do, because of all the categories. If I don't want to read incest, I don't click on it. Or BDSM or whatever. If I want a het romance, I just go to Romance, and there it is.

But for GM, or Lesbian, readers, it's not so simple. For the most part, they have to sort through the entire GM or Lesbian category. Much is made of keywords and tags, and no doubt they are useful, but they aren't the whole solution. I have never used them to find stories, that I can think of. I don't know how many readers do. And why should someone who wants to read a Lesbian or GM story have to comb through the whole category to find the kink (or lack thereof) that they like?

Is there a simpler way do you think? How would you like to see it?

I think a lot of the problem here is what you're used to. Over at SOL, there are no categories. There are tons of tags. If you want to read a lesbian sf bdsm story featuring incest and romance and anal and whatever the hell else, you can see by the tags if it's what you want. That also takes away the struggle many Lit authors have when they have various themes but have to pick one that trumps the others, even if it doesn't really.

Lit is set up by categories, which is limiting in many ways, but it's the way it's set up and no doubt most regular users are used to it. But a user from SOL or a similar site might come here and find Lit's setup restrictive, and be peeved that they can't more easily find a story they'd read.

It might also help, as some have said, if the keyword tags were at the beginning of a Lit story, or at least on the first page, instead of the last one.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Blah, blah, blah...I'm a sore loser...blah, blah, blah.

You said it yourself.