DOJ and the schools.

[Ishmael]

I apologize for a second thread on the subject but it's an important subject and BS/BB has made far too many peoples ignore list.

Eric Holder and the DOJ have issued new guidelines for the nations public schools regarding disciplinary actions for student infractions. Some of the statements issued with the guidelines are controversial but overall I tend to agree with the direction Holder is taking.

For far too long the public, and some private schools, have been guided by a policies called "Zero Tolerance." I believe that these policies would more properly be labeled "Zero Common Sense." When a schools policy has 1st graders jailed and charged with weapons violations (ie. pointing a finger like a gun) or sexual harassment (ie. kissing a little girl/boy) then I think it's obvious that someone has take leave of their senses. Conflicts within the school systems should be resolved at the lowest possible level and the inclusion of law enforcement and the courts be the very last resort taken.

That being said Holder's guidelines tied in racial components citing that black students were being charged with infractions (all or just certain infractions?) at a higher rate than white students. There are two ways of looking at this. Black students are being discriminated against or black students are in reality actually committing those infractions at a higher rate than white students. (The blow-up over the issue of NJ state police issuing speeding tickets to blacks at a higher proportion than whites during Christie Todd Whitmans tenure as NJ governor comes to mind. Two independent studies showed that blacks were indeed speeding proportionately more than whites.) The fact that black students were being charged with infractions at a proportionately higher rate than whites is NOT a prima facie indication of discrimination.

Holder's statement then went on to mention that in some cases black students were given stiffer penalties than white students. In this instance I will say that there is a prima facie case for discrimination. The same infraction should carry the same penalty regardless of the race or cultural background of the student charged with the infraction.

I believe that Holder could have issued the guidelines without resorting to making it a racial issue and still gotten his point across quite effectively.

Ishmael

 

[Busybody]

I am ignored, cause peeps are ashamed to be shown for what they are by me......you will be called racist for the thread

 

[Busybody]

Did the study that showed colored "kids" get stiffer penalties.....study if the future inmates at state Penn.......have priors?........me think not.....

 

[Busybody]

To NIGGERHOLDER everything is about race

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Starting when, do Niggaz attend school? They go to school to sell drugs and fuck white girls.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

Yeah, with their big long black dicks.

 

[Busybody]

COLOREDS shouldn't be in school

4 minutes after birth, should be sent to jail.....save money and middleman

 

[StrangeLife]

For far too long the public, and some private schools, have been guided by a policies called "Zero Tolerance." I believe that these policies would more properly be labeled "Zero Common Sense." When a schools policy has 1st graders jailed and charged with weapons violations (ie. pointing a finger like a gun) or sexual harassment (ie. kissing a little girl/boy) then I think it's obvious that someone has take leave of their senses. Conflicts within the school systems should be resolved at the lowest possible level and the inclusion of law enforcement and the courts be the very last resort taken.

When I was in highschool we played a game called "Assassin."

The killer was assigned a target-person that he or she was supposed to shoot with a paintball marker within a certain timeframe - usually a week or so - without being seen by anybody else. Nobody knew the identity of the killer or who was assigned to be the mark, and the entire town including the school was the playing field. Unless you were the killer, you would walk around in state of constant paranoia and trust nobody - not even your best friend. It sounds awful but was in fact super fun

Now imagine kids of today playing a game like that. Apart from the futility of getting a paintball marker through the metal detectors, if a kid pulled out a gun-like object and pointed it around he would get picked up by the FBI and never heard from again.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Yeah, with their big long black dicks.

Ever seen any girlz cry cuz they couldn't take jumbo anyplace worth going in?

I have.

Its why black girls got huge asses.

I don't doubt for a second that many male LIT posters wouldn't wanna try.

 

[Liar]

When I was in highschool we played a game called "Assassin."

The killer was assigned a target-person that he or she was supposed to shoot with a paintball marker within a certain timeframe - usually a week or so - without being seen by anybody else. Nobody knew the identity of the killer or who was assigned to be the mark, and the entire town including the school was the playing field. Unless you were the killer, you would walk around in state of constant paranoia and trust nobody - not even your best friend. It sounds awful but was in fact super fun

Now imagine kids of today playing a game like that. Apart from the futility of getting a paintball marker through the metal detectors, if a kid pulled out a gun-like object and pointed it around he would get picked up by the FBI and never heard from again.

And/or shot.

 

[koalabear]

Sounds like separate schools are needed.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Sounds like separate schools are needed.

I think it'd be easier just to let the Jitterburgers have a site where they can print whatever diploma they need.

 

[Busybody]

Sounds like separate schools are needed.

schools fro whites

jail for COLOROEDS

 

[RobDownSouth]

I apologize for a second thread on the subject but it's an important subject and BS/BB has made far too many peoples ignore list.

Eric Holder and the DOJ have issued new guidelines for the nations public schools regarding disciplinary actions for student infractions. Some of the statements issued with the guidelines are controversial but overall I tend to agree with the direction Holder is taking.

For far too long the public, and some private schools, have been guided by a policies called "Zero Tolerance." I believe that these policies would more properly be labeled "Zero Common Sense." When a schools policy has 1st graders jailed and charged with weapons violations (ie. pointing a finger like a gun) or sexual harassment (ie. kissing a little girl/boy) then I think it's obvious that someone has take leave of their senses. Conflicts within the school systems should be resolved at the lowest possible level and the inclusion of law enforcement and the courts be the very last resort taken.

That being said Holder's guidelines tied in racial components citing that black students were being charged with infractions (all or just certain infractions?) at a higher rate than white students. There are two ways of looking at this. Black students are being discriminated against or black students are in reality actually committing those infractions at a higher rate than white students. (The blow-up over the issue of NJ state police issuing speeding tickets to blacks at a higher proportion than whites during Christie Todd Whitmans tenure as NJ governor comes to mind. Two independent studies showed that blacks were indeed speeding proportionately more than whites.) The fact that black students were being charged with infractions at a proportionately higher rate than whites is NOT a prima facie indication of discrimination.

Holder's statement then went on to mention that in some cases black students were given stiffer penalties than white students. In this instance I will say that there is a prima facie case for discrimination. The same infraction should carry the same penalty regardless of the race or cultural background of the student charged with the infraction.

I believe that Holder could have issued the guidelines without resorting to making it a racial issue and still gotten his point across quite effectively.

Ishmael

Y'know what, Ish? Just this once I'll agree with you, but only to a point.

I'd be interested in analyzing not the number of infractions by race, but the severity of punishment based on race.

I suspect, but having no way of proving, that black kids are punished disproportionately in severity to white kids for similar offenses. I hope I'm wrong...I fear I'm right.

In any event, we have way too many "School Resource Officers" handling picayune disciplinary issues as "crimes". Here's an example: A kid I know came to school on Halloween with a carved jack-of-lantern affixed to the roof of his truck. There was a machete sticking out of the pumpkin, making it looked like the pumpkin had been stabbed in the head. The SRO arrested the kid for bringing a "dangerous weapon" on to school property, the kid was expelled.

 

[Busybody]

I suspect, but having no way of proving, that black kids are punished disproportionately in severity to white kids for similar offenses. I hope I'm wrong...I fear I'm right.

Bigger question, Knee Grrrr is


If the COLOREDS (future) criminals were treated WORSE, did they have more priors?

Im sure they DID

Why?

1-Cause COLOREDS always have PRIORS

2-No one would DARE treat em WORSE then ANGLE WHITE CHILDREN for fear of HARRASSMENT by PC Kneee Grrrrz

 

[koalabear]

Y'know what, Ish? Just this once I'll agree with you, but only to a point.

I'd be interested in analyzing not the number of infractions by race, but the severity of punishment based on race.

I suspect, but having no way of proving, that black kids are punished disproportionately in severity to white kids for similar offenses. I hope I'm wrong...I fear I'm right.

In any event, we have way too many "School Resource Officers" handling picayune disciplinary issues as "crimes". Here's an example: A kid I know came to school on Halloween with a carved jack-of-lantern affixed to the roof of his truck. There was a machete sticking out of the pumpkin, making it looked like the pumpkin had been stabbed in the head. The SRO arrested the kid for bringing a "dangerous weapon" on to school property, the kid was expelled.

He should have been.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I wanna see some evidence black kids go to school.

 

[unregistered]

 

[Sean Renaud]

I mostly agree, though it's obvious that blacks DO get harsher punishments for equal or lesser crimes. If you're point is that blacks should remain silent and Holder shouldn't have mentioned the racial component I flip back and forth on that. Does racism actually go away because we ignore it or does it thrive when nobody speaks. There seems to be lots of historical evidence that remaining silent never goes well.

As for the assassin game you very well should be expelled for playing that game.

Not that I didn't play it, I just had the common sense not to use actual "guns". We did it with the Secret Service vs Assassins though and used a combination of spit ball guns and rubberband launchers. . .sometimes with paperclip or thumbtack enhancements.

 

[Ishmael]

I mostly agree, though it's obvious that blacks DO get harsher punishments for equal or lesser crimes. If you're point is that blacks should remain silent and Holder shouldn't have mentioned the racial component I flip back and forth on that. Does racism actually go away because we ignore it or does it thrive when nobody speaks. There seems to be lots of historical evidence that remaining silent never goes well.

As for the assassin game you very well should be expelled for playing that game.

Not that I didn't play it, I just had the common sense not to use actual "guns". We did it with the Secret Service vs Assassins though and used a combination of spit ball guns and rubberband launchers. . .sometimes with paperclip or thumbtack enhancements.

Holder could have put forth the proposition of equal treatment for all along with the veiled threat of DOJ oversight without getting into any racial component. What about the Latino's?

The problem with his statement was simple, he dived into the race pool for political reasons. With NO hard corroborative data he made provocative statements certainly intended to 'fire up the base.' And you'd best consider that if there is a difference in the punishment(s) handed out for the same infraction he has to deal with the courts for that is where the problem would reside. Remember, the 'Zero Tolerance' policy is to immediately refer the individual to law enforcement and the courts. The schools are essentially washing their hands of any involvement. And what involvement the schools have are, in almost all districts, set in school board policy. For X infraction the offender will receive Y days suspension, or whatever, no exception. The school board(s) have removed any options from the principal as well. All in the interest of "Fairness."

And all of this is based on an ASSUMPTION that blacks ARE being dealt with more harshly than others and we still have NO data to back that up, just anecdotal stories.

Make no mistake, I am not dismissing the notion that unequal treatment is occurring in some school districts. I am highly skeptical of the notion that it is a widely spread practice to the point that it is a national problem. "Zero Tolerance" policies, on the other hand, ARE a national problem.

Ishmael

 

[Sean Renaud]

Holder could have put forth the proposition of equal treatment for all along with the veiled threat of DOJ oversight without getting into any racial component. What about the Latino's?

Fair enough, it's not like they don't get screwed also. I already admitted that I'm not really clear on if the proper reaction to "sees black guy get lynched" is ignore it and it won't happen next time. (Which is clearly the default Conservative position) and "say something when you see it. It'll never stop when if you don't especially since sometimes people don't know they are doing it." But Latinos DO get screwed on it and we all know when someone is complaining about immigrants this, immigrants that they neither mean blacks from anywhere, nor whites from anywhere.

The problem with his statement was simple, he dived into the race pool for political reasons. With NO hard corroborative data he made provocative statements certainly intended to 'fire up the base.' And you'd best consider that if there is a difference in the punishment(s) handed out for the same infraction he has to deal with the courts for that is where the problem would reside. Remember, the 'Zero Tolerance' policy is to immediately refer the individual to law enforcement and the courts. The schools are essentially washing their hands of any involvement. And what involvement the schools have are, in almost all districts, set in school board policy. For X infraction the offender will receive Y days suspension, or whatever, no exception. The school board(s) have removed any options from the principal as well. All in the interest of "Fairness."

He didn't need hard data. Again if someone says that we're having trouble with say English in schools they are never talking about Rednecks or the French or the Chinese. We know that our court systems are not remotely fair, we can look at just about any crime or punishment and find the data it's not exactly secret or even controversial information at this point.

And all of this is based on an ASSUMPTION that blacks ARE being dealt with more harshly than others and we still have NO data to back that up, just anecdotal stories.

The data exists for everything but this in isolation. No reason to think it'll be unique.

Make no mistake, I am not dismissing the notion that unequal treatment is occurring in some school districts. I am highly skeptical of the notion that it is a widely spread practice to the point that it is a national problem. "Zero Tolerance" policies, on the other hand, ARE a national problem.

Ishmael

Nobody is arguing that "Zero Tolerance" isn't a problem. I think that's one thing we can all agree on. Though I'm curious what (once we get rid of all the toy set ups) could be done. In the areas where kids do bring weapons with intent to harm to school letting them slide the one time you catch them isn't really workable. In other places, I can't count how many times I brought a pocket knife to school. I was a Boy Scout would go camping and forget that it was in there, usually with a lighter or some matches. Sometimes with a flashlight that was better described as a light emitting club. (Seriously it was like 18 inches long and twelve pounds.) Busting me would have been stupid. Of course I had enough problems both that I caused and that I got into through no fault of my own. (And some that it's impossible to tell) that you'da felt hella stupid if the time after I got a freebie that I busted some kids skull open with my flashlight.

I have no doubt that the treatment difference is more or less nationwide. That said he seems to be doing something might as well wait for more details on what precisely he has planned.

 

[Ishmael]

Fair enough, it's not like they don't get screwed also. I already admitted that I'm not really clear on if the proper reaction to "sees black guy get lynched" is ignore it and it won't happen next time. (Which is clearly the default Conservative position) and "say something when you see it. It'll never stop when if you don't especially since sometimes people don't know they are doing it." But Latinos DO get screwed on it and we all know when someone is complaining about immigrants this, immigrants that they neither mean blacks from anywhere, nor whites from anywhere.



He didn't need hard data. Again if someone says that we're having trouble with say English in schools they are never talking about Rednecks or the French or the Chinese. We know that our court systems are not remotely fair, we can look at just about any crime or punishment and find the data it's not exactly secret or even controversial information at this point.




The data exists for everything but this in isolation. No reason to think it'll be unique.



Nobody is arguing that "Zero Tolerance" isn't a problem. I think that's one thing we can all agree on. Though I'm curious what (once we get rid of all the toy set ups) could be done. In the areas where kids do bring weapons with intent to harm to school letting them slide the one time you catch them isn't really workable. In other places, I can't count how many times I brought a pocket knife to school. I was a Boy Scout would go camping and forget that it was in there, usually with a lighter or some matches. Sometimes with a flashlight that was better described as a light emitting club. (Seriously it was like 18 inches long and twelve pounds.) Busting me would have been stupid. Of course I had enough problems both that I caused and that I got into through no fault of my own. (And some that it's impossible to tell) that you'da felt hella stupid if the time after I got a freebie that I busted some kids skull open with my flashlight.

I have no doubt that the treatment difference is more or less nationwide. That said he seems to be doing something might as well wait for more details on what precisely he has planned.

Back to the fact that it is essentially a court problem. Holder lecturing the schools is pointless in that regard.

I carried a gun to school three times a week on the public bus. It was a cased .22 target rifle, but it was a firearm none the less. The school, all of the high schools, had rifle ranges and shot in competition with each other. When I got to school I turned the rifle into the arms room, shot either practice or competition after school hours, checked the rifle out, got on the bus and went home.

Today I'd be locked up and on a terrorist watch list. Paranoia runs deep.

Ishmael

 

[Skiddles2014]

When I was in highschool we played a game called "Assassin."

The killer was assigned a target-person that he or she was supposed to shoot with a paintball marker within a certain timeframe - usually a week or so - without being seen by anybody else. Nobody knew the identity of the killer or who was assigned to be the mark, and the entire town including the school was the playing field. Unless you were the killer, you would walk around in state of constant paranoia and trust nobody - not even your best friend. It sounds awful but was in fact super fun

Now imagine kids of today playing a game like that. Apart from the futility of getting a paintball marker through the metal detectors, if a kid pulled out a gun-like object and pointed it around he would get picked up by the FBI and never heard from again.

Did you ever live in Barrie, Ont?

 

[unregistered]