The Queernesss Thread

[Allyourbase]

Oh, and the biggest difference between now and 2011 when I posted that? I've got a binder now. ;3

Binders are awesome. Honestly? Since I got mine, I started appreciating my tits more. It's easier to like them when you're able to get rid of them some days, apparently. (Well, 'get rid'. It's a c-cup, but hey, I'm trying... )

 

[KoPilot]

Binders are awesome. Honestly? Since I got mine, I started appreciating my tits more. It's easier to like them when you're able to get rid of them some days, apparently. (Well, 'get rid'. It's a c-cup, but hey, I'm trying... )

Yesss that's very much part of it! It's like... I like ramen, but do I want some every time I open my mouth? Nope, gonna get sick of it pretty instantly.

I like that my chest is now just another part of my wardrobe, really. I don't think of it like "do I want to wear my binder today" so much as "do I want to wear my boobs today". And yeah, I got C's too... not gonna flatten em without some heavy duty apparatus, and I have no interest in wearing some of the heaver binders/compression shirts out there. :S

 

[Stella_Omega]

What kind do you have? I have the pull-over, struggle-in-a-panic-oh-jeeze-I-am-so-stuck-i'm-gonna-have-to-call-the-fire-department type...

You can imagine how often I wear it, like never.

 

[Allyourbase]

What kind do you have? I have the pull-over, struggle-in-a-panic-oh-jeeze-I-am-so-stuck-i'm-gonna-have-to-call-the-fire-department type...

You can imagine how often I wear it, like never.

I have this one. It has a zipper. I happen to like zippers.

Got one without a zipper as well, which is a bit more comfortable, but inversely correlated with how well it flattens It also has that fire-department-danger-thang-going-on. Or, as I heard some call it, it requires the 'binder-dance'. Where you wriggle around with your hands in the air. Maybe... it's best to think of it as a dance...

(They got swim wear as well, if you can afford it and are not averse to shipping overseas.)

 

[Allyourbase]

Yesss that's very much part of it! It's like... I like ramen, but do I want some every time I open my mouth? Nope, gonna get sick of it pretty instantly.

I like that my chest is now just another part of my wardrobe, really. I don't think of it like "do I want to wear my binder today" so much as "do I want to wear my boobs today". And yeah, I got C's too... not gonna flatten em without some heavy duty apparatus, and I have no interest in wearing some of the heaver binders/compression shirts out there. :S

That! Yes.

Mostly it's sports bras here, though. Since I have a long commute, a work day is often around 12 hrs. Not good for a binder. Downside: the uniboob.

If only hips were fashion accessories as well...

 

[KoPilot]

What kind do you have? I have the pull-over, struggle-in-a-panic-oh-jeeze-I-am-so-stuck-i'm-gonna-have-to-call-the-fire-department type...

You can imagine how often I wear it, like never.

Mine is a lightish sports-bra looking thing from T Kingdom because I was poor and had NO idea what I was getting myself into as far as binding goes... I'd only ever tried it once before, and it was with packing tape for about 15 minutes. So I basically wanted to test the waters and figure out what I should expect from the uncomfortable factor. It's alright, does the trick sorta... still get that wide, flat "uniboob" and it's a little uncomfortable to wear against the skin because it's basically made from heavy-duty elastic.

I really should shell out for something better quality one of these days, though... I think I'll take a good look at that Danae site, Allyourbase!

That! Yes.

Mostly it's sports bras here, though. Since I have a long commute, a work day is often around 12 hrs. Not good for a binder. Downside: the uniboob.

If only hips were fashion accessories as well...

Yeah, sports bras are a big part of my regimen too! I've got a 1-1-1 sort of thing going on: equal parts pushup bras, sports bras, and binder. Couldn't wear the binder for more than half the time even if I wanted to... the pain is pretty sucky. The sports bras even get to me after a few days. :s

 

[KoPilot]

Oh and I figure--hey--who says I can't pimp my shit here?

I made a quiet little art book about sex and gender featuring giant robots: http://lofrequency.storenvy.com/prod...-real-super-01

It's gonna be part of a series :V

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh and I figure--hey--who says I can't pimp my shit here?

I made a quiet little art book about sex and gender featuring giant robots: http://lofrequency.storenvy.com/products/1427765-real-super-01

It's gonna be part of a series :V

Hell yeah you can!

I wish I had more readers on tumblr, but I'll post a link to it anyway.

Actually-- I SAW this, when I was digging around on storenvy to see if anyone was selling adult toys, which they are not. I'm transferring my wooden dildos to a host called tictails.com

 

[KoPilot]

Hell yeah you can!

I wish I had more readers on tumblr, but I'll post a link to it anyway.

Actually-- I SAW this, when I was digging around on storenvy to see if anyone was selling adult toys, which they are not. I'm transferring my wooden dildos to a host called tictails.com

HAH! That's good, then... I'm still a little unsure of how the new storefront system works there, and I'm glad, well... someone found it with a cold search.

 

[Allyourbase]

Can I just... ? I just need to... rant a bit.

The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.

Have you seen it? We've been watching the Swedish movies - originally titled: Män som hatar kvinnor (Men who hate women). Haven't read the books.

It's very interesting to have such a queer girl character in a big role. Especially someone who hates 'men who hate women', but doesn't hate 'all men'.

It's very annoying to have 'men who hate women' characterized by the fact they like to tie up their women when they fuck them. And they either pay them for it (poor bored prostitute), or rape them. Nevermind that rape isn't about getting off, but hey, we need something to make them feel yuck to us, right?

We started watching Dexter just yesterday. Season 1 episode 1: Dexter kills a guy who's such a kinky perv he obviously slippery sloped into making snuff movies! Wtf? And you want me to feel sympathy for a serial killer?

I know, iknowiknowiknow... There's tons of shows out there who do that. Every CSI SVU whathaveyounot discovers a perverted killer's basement full of kinky porn once in a while. They must have a truckload of pervy stuff stashed in the studio prop room. But dude, the queer girl movies. I want to be able to like them.

 

[KoPilot]

Yeah, that's why I look to cartoons if I want queer characters I can relate to represented in mainstream media. They don't rely on cheap Hollywood violence tropes to tell good stories, or sympathizing with violent criminals that are actually horrible horrible people for their themes (so subversive and different, wow!)

I will not ever get over how good Adventure Time is at this.

 

[Allyourbase]

Yeah, that's why I look to cartoons if I want queer characters I can relate to represented in mainstream media. They don't rely on cheap Hollywood violence tropes to tell good stories, or sympathizing with violent criminals that are actually horrible horrible people for their themes (so subversive and different, wow!)

I will not ever get over how good Adventure Time is at this.

O.k. it's time to start watching Adventure Time. (I mentioned I'm Dutch, right? I've never seen it. We did have Pippi Longstocking though.)

Do you have any other recommendations?

 

[KoPilot]

O.k. it's time to start watching Adventure Time. (I mentioned I'm Dutch, right? I've never seen it. We did have Pippi Longstocking though.)

Do you have any other recommendations?

Not really. D:

I've only JUST started reevaluating my childhood cartoons through the queer/gender lens, and I've discovered a few pretty good gems so far--my first concept of nonbinary gender was via the evolutionary chain of a character in the Digimon anime, f'ex. The show itself is kinda boring most of the time, though.

But YEAH. ADVENTURE TIME. BMO is the little robot character that is canon-confirmed for being agender, and they are depicted perfectly, IMO. The Two Lemongrabs are also an amazing example of a queer couple and the episode where the second one is created addresses neurodiversity in a really neat (albeit fantastical) way too.

Idk some people don't like it when GSM characters/issues are depicted in metaphorical ways as they feel it cheapens things, so if that's the case for you then you'll probably be disappointed in cartoons, but I personally think they're great and they shaped me a lot growing up.

Now you've got me wanting to go back and look at a lot more titles...

 

[KoPilot]

Revelation time!

A couple things led up to this (two long-winded blog posts, actually), introducing to me the idea that erotic sexuality or whatever is dependent on intimate engagement with a "self" and an "other", that fetishism depends on the "other" being as differentiated from "self" as possible, and so on.

So I read a really touching post on a blog about a couple, originally lesbian, as they go through the husband's transition. And the wife said something about always having her partner go and buy them both underwear, but when her partner became her husband, having him buy both of them underwear, and have it no longer be the same kind, was jarring and sad to her.

I have no idea what it's like to be homosexual; and truthfully, I have no idea what it's like to be heterosexual or any other kind of sexual either.

I guess the point I'm making here is that I realized that the "self" and the "other" for me to frame my interpersonal relationships in is not "us = women, them = men", but it's always been about D/s and size to me. It's "us = small, them = big" and "us = shaped, them = shaper".

Nuts!

 

[Allyourbase]

BUMP!

ohai!

Not really. D:

I've only JUST started reevaluating my childhood cartoons through the queer/gender lens, and I've discovered a few pretty good gems so far [snip]

This was interesting! By now, The Netherlands are a pretty America-centered culture, but when I grew up (riiight at the point the fax, mobile phone, internet started catching on), we mostly had Dutch and scandinavian shows. Looking back, some of them feel relevant in terms of gender.

One of them was about this kid who regularly visited a grandpa neighbour for some storytelling. The kid was a gender puzzle. Looked like a girl, shapely face, high pitched voice, ash blonde hair in a ponytail, but had a clear boys' name (Gerrit). Totally mindblowing for me, as a kid. I felt like that! Except for that it was probably not meant that way, the kid probably just was meant to represent a 'normal boy'. But I remember my mind got hooked on the question whether it'd be possible that under Gerrit's neutral clothes was a body with a vagina. Whether you could be a boy with a vagina.

I've tried finding it again, in vain.

Revelation time!

A couple things led up to this (two long-winded blog posts, actually), introducing to me the idea that erotic sexuality or whatever is dependent on intimate engagement with a "self" and an "other", that fetishism depends on the "other" being as differentiated from "self" as possible, and so on.

So I read a really touching post on a blog about a couple, originally lesbian, as they go through the husband's transition. And the wife said something about always having her partner go and buy them both underwear, but when her partner became her husband, having him buy both of them underwear, and have it no longer be the same kind, was jarring and sad to her.

I have no idea what it's like to be homosexual; and truthfully, I have no idea what it's like to be heterosexual or any other kind of sexual either.

I guess the point I'm making here is that I realized that the "self" and the "other" for me to frame my interpersonal relationships in is not "us = women, them = men", but it's always been about D/s and size to me. It's "us = small, them = big" and "us = shaped, them = shaper".

Nuts!

I've read this post a couple of times, and still not sure whether it really lands.

Unlike you, I'm pretty 'sexual', but where that is concerned I do have some self/other us/them questioning going on.

There are exceptions, but generally, my attractions have to do with wanting to have and be the 'other' at the same time - based on their gender, not necessarily their sex. (Confusingly, I have that with *straight* men. I don't think 'heterosexual' nor 'homosexual' cover that...) For me, there often is no 'us' versus 'them' thing in attraction, because there is no 'them'. I fall for 'one of us'.

I'm pretty sure I'm not making any sense. But hey, bumped this thread!

 

[KoPilot]

Unlike you, I'm pretty 'sexual', but where that is concerned I do have some self/other us/them questioning going on.

There are exceptions, but generally, my attractions have to do with wanting to have and be the 'other' at the same time - based on their gender, not necessarily their sex. (Confusingly, I have that with *straight* men. I don't think 'heterosexual' nor 'homosexual' cover that...) For me, there often is no 'us' versus 'them' thing in attraction, because there is no 'them'. I fall for 'one of us'.

I'm pretty sure I'm not making any sense. But hey, bumped this thread!

Yeah, I had a conversation with S inspired by those blog posts too. Basically told him "look, while I don't want to be your gendered opposite, I also don't want to "compete" with your masculinity". That may or may not have been a concern at all for him, some deep-seated fear that I would try to take his place as "man" in the relationship, but I felt it was important to put out there anyways. It's important that he knew that I don't see gender as a linear thing whose place can be usurped. I don't internalize any of it pretty equally.

But there were times in high school where I would look at guys and just KNOW deep down that I wanted to be them AND be with them. I don't feel that way much anymore, but I distinctly remember what that was like.

-

And changing the subject, my favoritest thing in the world these days is this little zine by a queer, trans* game designer, Anna Anthropy, that talks about sex and gender through the lens of kink: http://www.auntiepixelante.com/store/d-sphoria.html

askdjhsdf it made so much sense to me, I couldn't believe it. I officially consider this required reading of kinky trans* people :V

Gonna make S read it when I see him this week. It's required reading for him too.

 

[Allyourbase]

That zine looks interesting, thanks for the tip.

Yeah, I had a conversation with S inspired by those blog posts too. Basically told him "look, while I don't want to be your gendered opposite, I also don't want to "compete" with your masculinity". That may or may not have been a concern at all for him, some deep-seated fear that I would try to take his place as "man" in the relationship, but I felt it was important to put out there anyways.

Heh, I wish I was like that. Would make my guy's life a bit easier.

Regardless whether I was in femme or butch presentation (or whatever else), I've always felt more butt hurt if my masculinity was challenged, than if someone'd call me 'not a real woman'. That is a difficult remark to respond to. Because it is true in my case, but saying that only reinforces their assumption of what 'real women' are.

 

[Allyourbase]

Oh hey: have you guys spotted Wildfang yet? Tomboy fashion webshop. Though I kind of wonder whether my definition of tomboy is a bit off, when I look at the most of the models they've used for the site.

 

[KoPilot]

Oh hey: have you guys spotted Wildfang yet? Tomboy fashion webshop. Though I kind of wonder whether my definition of tomboy is a bit off, when I look at the most of the models they've used for the site.

Yeah, it seems that all the new "tomboy" and FTM clothing companies are crazy high end and targeted more at the dapper/dandy hipster crowd. Of which I am so decidedly not part of.

I just want masculine clothes that fit me AND my gen y budget!

...and huh, the more I look at their line, the more it looks like overpriced Forever 21. No thanks.

Speaking of budgets, grr the novelty of having my very first binder has officially worn off. The flat uniboob is not cute, and I need something that gets these suckers down.

Yes, I am complaining about having c cups on a lanky stick body. Why couldn't I have been born with b's? -crey-

 

[Allyourbase]

Yeah, it seems that all the new "tomboy" and FTM clothing companies are crazy high end and targeted more at the dapper/dandy hipster crowd. Of which I am so decidedly not part of.

I just want masculine clothes that fit me AND my gen y budget!

...and huh, the more I look at their line, the more it looks like overpriced Forever 21. No thanks.

Speaking of budgets, grr the novelty of having my very first binder has officially worn off. The flat uniboob is not cute, and I need something that gets these suckers down.

Yes, I am complaining about having c cups on a lanky stick body. Why couldn't I have been born with b's? -crey-

What's a boy gotta do to get some decent clothes! Sew their own? Seriously considering that by now, but I doubt I have the patience.

As for getting a C-cup down... if a good binder doesn't do the job, I dunno what would. I did notice different binders have different effects. Honestly, I think no matter how well it works, in the end it's never flat enough. That is my experience anyways. I have the same issue, c-cup here, (asymmetrical, because hey, let's complicate things). And then with matching ass, also a challenge. No binders for that, huh.

In this theme: I was shopping at thrift shops today for a secondhand suit to fit this body (I need it next month, ex roommates bachelor party) - I don't think it's going to work.

 

[KoPilot]

As for getting a C-cup down... if a good binder doesn't do the job, I dunno what would. I did notice different binders have different effects. Honestly, I think no matter how well it works, in the end it's never flat enough. That is my experience anyways. I have the same issue, c-cup here, (asymmetrical, because hey, let's complicate things). And then with matching ass, also a challenge. No binders for that, huh.

Sadface :[

Wouldn't be bad if it looked like I had pecs, lol, but bulking up would take me a jillion years and being ripped ain't my dig anyhow.

I've so totally seen pix of self-professed c cups getting their chests almost completely flat!They must be buying expensive ass binders... I guess I should ask next time I spot one.

In this theme: I was shopping at thrift shops today for a secondhand suit to fit this body (I need it next month, ex roommates bachelor party) - I don't think it's going to work.

Maybe try craigslist or something similar for where you live. There's always ebay, also. :\

 

[Allyourbase]

Sadface :[

Wouldn't be bad if it looked like I had pecs, lol, but bulking up would take me a jillion years and being ripped ain't my dig anyhow.

I've so totally seen pix of self-professed c cups getting their chests almost completely flat!They must be buying expensive ass binders... I guess I should ask next time I spot one.

Well, I can bind like a pro and can get mine pretty flat, for a picture. It works until I start moving and the fabric starts to move as well resulting in the ever unaivoidable uniboob. And the slow realization that breathing without restrictions is pretty awesome. (I always start trailing off thinking about poor girls forced to wear corsets and wonder why I am doing this to myself again.)

I'd like being a muscular type, since it's the only thing I could realistically pull off with this body - the nice queer slender thing is just not going to happen to me, ever. Hey, I have arms, why not be proud of them?

Then again, if I'd spot a boy with a uniboob, there's probably some fabulous nonfeminine tits under there, not the worst thing to notice. But I am weird.

Maybe try craigslist or something similar for where you live. There's always ebay, also. :\

I've tried some of my dad's stuff. No succes part 2.
But I'm getting a feel of what would work - wouldn't know what to look for on ebay in the first place, otherwise.

 

[Inflicto]

Sadist

96%

Experimental

86%

Dominant

86%

Exhibitionist / Voyeur

43%

Switch

39%

Submissive

29%

Bondage

29%

Vanilla

25%

Degradation

21%

Masochist

0%


wooot! =)

 

[BrightlyGo]

Genderqueer, and labels in general

So, two parts to this. One is just a question about the 'queer' label in this thread, and the "Genderqueer" label, and how broad they are. The other is me getting self-absorbed about what labels apply to me (and can be safely ignored).

Is there a point at which a label is so broad it imparts no information? Is "Genderqueer" or "Queer" that kind of label? And is that a good or bad thing?

i think inclusive labels are good in a way. When i was an even more clueless and even more intellectually pretentious teen, i used to respond to questions like "race?" with 'human,' but i don't just mean in that snarky way. i mean, really, finding an inclusive identity helps people get along and feel accepted. Like, well, people.

But, i also like, ah.. acquiring information. Learning. i read a post by someone who sounds interesting, i'd like to know about them and their perspective. More precise labels - if you can feel genuinely comfortable with self-identifying as them - help with that.




Now for the silly memememe stuff...

So, in most of my life i feel little choice but to self-identify as a 'straight man.' There just aren't that many commonly-understood labels to choose from. Straight, Gay or Bi? Well, not really, no.

i'm far too attracted to women to be Gay. i'm attracted to guys enough to figure 'bi' would fit, but i haven't acted on that enough to feel it's legitimate to claim it, but, by the same token, having indulged in BDSM play, kissed, flirted, made out - and had that melting-inside/i-want-to-be-with-you-so-bad feeling - with other guys, i can hardly feel like 'straight' fits, either. It seems like monogamy doesn't fit with a bi identity, either, but the way i see it, promising never to have sex with anyone else is about the same, whether there's one half of the human race you'd never want to have sex with or not.

(Margaret Cho once said "I'm not gay, I'm not a lesbian, I'm not 'bi' - if finally figured it out: I'm a slut!" It was a punchline, but i loved it. i wish "slut" could sound as beautiful to others as it does to me when i hear it applied to myself. *sigh* Sadly, it's used as a negative label against women too much to really embrace. And, of course, how could i be a 'slut' if i'm in a permanent monogamous relationship, and have never cheated. )

Then there's 'man.' i hate that word. Everytime i use it to describe myself, i feel like i'm dying a little inside. It's just, the connotations, the understood 'real' or 'macho' in front of it. It's not me. i didn't even like 'boy,' growing up - i'd rather be called a 'kid,' which was a very common slang at the time. People don't like 'male' for some reason, but i like it. Simple, clinical, nearly devoid of connotation. But, some of 'man' /does/ apply to me, and sometimes the only way to make a point or get an idea across is to own up to it, disquieting though it is.

i like the 'cis-' label, mainly i like the allusion to chemistry (are there fac- and mer- people, too?) it appeals to my nerdiness, but it's a handy label to have. Even so, i have a little trouble feeling right in it. i'm accepting enough of my assigned sex, just not the roles associated with it, and it's quite easy for me to imagine being female, or to identify with female characters (its the only way for me to enjoy a lot of D/s fiction, for instance, since so much of it is M/f). When i was a kid, i'd get asked "are you a boy or a girl," as a teen i embraced the androgynous look that was briefly 'in' in the 80s. The bottom line, though, is i don't feel a need to change my body, i just reject the expectations attached to it. As long as i can get away with saying cis-male instead of cis-man, though, it's pretty close.


The one set of labels i really have no problem with (and all those 'i's are a big hint) is the dominant/submissive/switch/top/bottom set. i'm a submissive. i don't have to debate with myself or wonder about it. It explains all the ambiguity. Of course i'm happy to do just about anyone, i'm a submissive slut. Of course i'm uncomfortable with 'being a man' - society says men are supposed to be dominant. Society also says submission if feminine, so i'm drawn to some feminine expression.


'submissive male' is the label i've used in the past, after all this, i think it still fits, though it doesn't address orientation (i'd almost argue submissive /is/ an orientation).

Any way i could get 'slut' in there?

 

[KoPilot]

Oh boy, the wonderful world of gender and sexuality labels~

BG, I don't think you'll find anyone here that's into policing folks and telling them what they can and can't call themselves. But I do like giving information and mentioning points that I feel might be getting overlooked. Ultimately though, I feel people can refer to themselves however they damn well please, really.

A couple points:

One, there's a debate in every identity community about what constitutes that identity: does that identity exist independently of the people who identify with the label, does it have objective criteria that can be met and not met whether you want to or not? Or do labels and identities function better when they are consciously and willfully adopted via self-identification, whether or not you may fit someone else's, or a widely accepted, definition of what the identity means? There's really no answer here, but I'm personally in the latter camp because it just causes less heartache, even though I do feel that identities are capable of being diluted and made less meaningful this way.

Two: That said, I think it is entirely possible for an ingrained trans* identity to get confused with a rejection of imposed societal gender roles. I think this explains why we see so many more young women adopting the genderqueer label than young men-- they are profoundly dissatisfied with how they're told they need to live and behave as women and want more than that. It seems to me that "tomboy" is falling out of fashion for some reason anymore, and it might have something to do with this. Being a tomboy might not be political enough for this new generation of gender nonconforming girls and women anymore, it might not be empowering enough. I dunno, these are just theories. I have no problem with people using labels like "genderqueer" as tools to help them figure out who they really are, whether it's a permanent identity or a temporary one. It'll be interesting to see where this new wave of genderqueer-identified folks are when they start getting into their 30's.

At any rate, I think there's a pretty big difference between rejecting what society tells you a man aught to be and rejecting the fact that society thinks you're a man (when you're not) altogether. But you're the only person that can figure that out for yourself. I don't think being able to identify with characters that aren't your gender makes you any less of the gender you are... otherwise there'd be no such thing as not-men. I don't think being able to imagine yourself as another gender means much of anything too.

As for your thoughts regarding straightness, it's commonly thought that no one is 100% monosexual and that everyone is a little fluid. You might be pan, I dunno.