Wrong Writing and Lovecraft

SecondCircle

Sin Cara
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I realize that the title of this thread holds nearly limitless homonymous possibilities of meanings, but never mind all that. And before anyone gets any ideas, I'm talking H.P. Lovecraft, the writer of strange and horrifying short stories

Now hear this. There's always some debate over what is "correct" when writing and what is not. And there's a point where you could eventually pull out a text book and shove it under someone's nose and say, "look here's the rules of grammar and sentence structure and creative writing." Of course, by anyone's account, the textbook style of flawless writing and edited material is absolutely correct. So like many arguments that happen here on the boards can tell you, there is a literarily correct way of writing. Stray from these common rules and it is easily deemed wrong. We all agree.

I was reading a Lovecraft story the other day (Howard Phillips) and like usual I was sucked in. I also read the forward written by Robert Bloch. Now if you've never read anything of Lovecraft's work, it is strange both in content and style. He chooses to write about things that humans cannot understand, and therefore find grossly terrifying. "We fear the unknown," so to speak. His writings involve creatures from beyond our world or dimension, that are so strange and alien to us that it disturbs the very mind to think of them.

Of course if I told you that The Shadow Over Innsmouth was about a guy that visits a town full of people turning into fish hybrids, you'd laugh at the idea that it was scary or creepy or dreadful. But the manner in which Lovecraft weaves the tale does it all. From the very first time the narrator sees the bus driver with his big unblinking eyes and other human yet repulsive features, you can't help but be filled with a morbid sense of wonder and revulsion. And Lovecraft describes it as such.

But this is leading me to what I'm trying to get at. Lovecraft's openings would be all but shunned here at Lit, and in any other medium. Sometimes he leads in with first person POV and showers the reader with a shit ton of back story and character details that most would find tiresome, over informative, and uncreative. It also takes quite the literary mind to understand his writing. His vocabulary is vast and he laces his words into the most complex of compound sentences that would drive an editor to shoot his face off. It's daunting indeed to start and read one of his short horror tales.

Then Robert Bloch pointed something out to me about Lovecraft's very style of writing. When you're reading, his usual narrator leads in with an almost "let me tell you what happened" kind of deal, which most would definitely say is bad writing. But Bloch says he uses this technique almost purposely. Its like you're sitting down and having a beer and a smoke with the narrator, and you're comfortable and attentive to hear what has got him talking. This narrator loads you with back story and all, and it can be droning and boring because of the lengthy compound sentences and tricky word play that has you saying WTF.

That's where most people would call him misguided. But his narrator speaks with an air of intelligence and superiority. In other words, the guy telling the story sounds smart as shit because of the way its written, and calm and sure of himself and the world around him. So then you're write there with him. Subconsciously, you're trusting the narrator is of sound mind and supreme intelligence.

Then after you wade through the seemingly dry intro, shit starts to look stranger and stranger until something completely out of this world happens. All the while, the narrator, having been deemed of sound mind and intellect, finds that his resolution crumbles away at the sight of some impossible and wretched thing from some place between time and space. And you're there with him.

Its happened to me several times. I'm reading Lovecraft, blah blah intro intro, I get what the guy's saying, and then I get pulled deeper. Like quicksand. Before I know it I'm breathless and reading about some insane horror or event that has suddenly sprung up. I never thought that a story involving the correspondence of two men talking of disturbances in a remote region could disturb me and give me chills. The way its written, and the shocking things they disclose to each other in their letters (which you read as letters) grows more and more suspenseful until you find yourself actually worried for one man's well being. I speak of The Whisperer in the Dark of course.

At long last I say this. The writing style and literary structure should have been wrong. Lovecraft was never famous in his time, and maybe it was the way he wrote. And by anyone's standards, I guess it was wrong. But by doing it the way he did, it seems like he knew something, and that writing the way he chose to write (though it may not have been as intentional as it seems today) he achieved a powerful overall effect. A creepy, eerie, disturbing, and on some level, downright terrifying collection of stories.

I need not ramble more. I just wondered if sometimes the wrong way achieves certain results that an author is going for even if that old textbook says they were shitty writers.
 
Popular writing styles (based mainly on what readers will buy) have varied with time. We are currently in the "start in the middle of action and confusion" period in terms of marketability. That doesn't mean that any other form of opening or of constructing a story is "wrong." It may mean it isn't what is currently popular in the marketplace. So, I don't think your premises have a firm foundation.
 
Whew! I saw wrong writing and Lovecraft and was afraid you had read my latest story!:rolleyes:

Lovecraft also wrote years before the ADD and instant gratification crowd came along and the average reader wasn't running to google to look up all those big words.

I've tried to turn a lot of my daughters friends onto Lovecraft and Poe and Bloch and the gang from back in the heyday of the Cthulhu mythos.

The feedback I got was it was too hard to read, there was noi blood and why wouldn't he say what anything looked like.

I was going to say because they used there imagination back then, but didn;t want to be asked what that meant.:rolleyes:

However! I had a cool Lovecraft based Cthulhu video game for X-box 360 and they were all over that!
 
Perhaps simply using the intros and Lovecraft as an example wasn't speaking broadly enough. There are stories and novels out there that contain sections which aren't grammatically correct or otherwise, but they are an artistic style of writing that caters to that particular section in order to get a certain idea across to the reader.

Some use sentence fragments, incomplete thoughts, or even broken wording for a dream scene or when in the mind of a mentally unsound character. I personally don't think that anything that a writer puts in like this is necessarily wrong when it comes to creative fiction. Because I can see the intent. I can feel what they intended me to feel. Sometimes it falls flat and is pretty openly criticized.

You're right about trends and popular methods of writing Pilot. Of course, you and I know that something isn't "wrong" but if something of this nature were ever to posted here (as I've read a few recently) the critics will attack and steer the author from doing this, since, as you stated, its not the popular method.
 
H.P. Lovecraft stops me in my tracks from the git-go. I've never finished one of his stories. To me its like reading awful assembly instructions written by the Chinese.
 
Commercial fiction permits sentence fragments. I'm not quite getting your problem.
 
HPL wasn't alone in having what might best be termed a "unique style".

I read some of his stories 40 years ago and loved them., Style did not bother me a lot as long as I understood what he was describing (I loved the way he'd lead you on and then - "Wham" would hit you with the punch line).
 
Commercial fiction permits sentence fragments. I'm not quite getting your problem.

I don't think he has a problem.

I think his point is there are people who have trampled all over the rules of grammar and been wildly successful.

That's what I'm getting anyway.
 
LC(the original) wouldn't fly today because like many authors of his time and before him his works are full of racism.

he also wrote about everything he had a fear of or a loathing for.

Old people (anything old in general) were always inherently evil.

his fear of sea food was behind the very popular innsmouth stories

and his loathing of foreigners shows up pretty much every where, but especially Call of Cthulhu and Horror at Red Hook.

And you can't beat the classic Rats in the walls featuring a cat named niggerman.

But, hey, what do you want from a guy who was raised by elderly aunts who sometimes dressed him as a girl?
 
I don't think he has a problem.

I think his point is there are people who have trampled all over the rules of grammar and been wildly successful.

That's what I'm getting anyway.

Yeah, so? I say. There's a much greater proportion of writers who have gotten to success without doing so. The anomalies don't prove anything other than, perhaps, to illuminating the surer paths to where you want to do.

(that sentence, "Yeah, so? I say" is grammatically correct, by the way. CMA 6.67--this connects back to a robertstream post on the Editorial Forum.)
 
Prose didn't have movies and video games to compete for attention in Lovecraft's day. I'm not saying his style is outmoded or "wrong" now, but a lot of readers do want a faster, more intense experience now, akin to what they get with other media. I think it's a big part of why YA has become so popular with adult readers.
 
Prose should affect you. Women and 3rd rate men wanna geld it and de-horn it or stuff it and mount it in a museum, but it should be wild and roam loose where it can scare the crap outta us.
 
Yeah, so? I say. There's a much greater proportion of writers who have gotten to success without doing so. The anomalies don't prove anything other than, perhaps, to illuminating the surer paths to where you want to do.

(that sentence, "Yeah, so? I say" is grammatically correct, by the way. CMA 6.67--this connects back to a robertstream post on the Editorial Forum.)

But you would expect the ones who follow the rules to have the success. It's more interesting to see those who didn't do well.

back then anyway. Back then people looked "harder" at writing. I think we're seeing more apathy towards "technically good" writing now as Twilight and 50 shades prove. they were extremely successful,but both could drive an editor to drink.

And I believe you posted awhile back that publishers are now skimping on the editorial process in general to save money push the product out faster. So we'll be seeing more "hacks" making the big bucks.

as for your editing example, I'll take your word on it being technically correct, but in real life conversation "Yeah, so" suffices. "Yeah, so? I say." doesn't read or flow well.
 
Prose didn't have movies and video games to compete for attention in Lovecraft's day. I'm not saying his style is outmoded or "wrong" now, but a lot of readers do want a faster, more intense experience now, akin to what they get with other media. I think it's a big part of why YA has become so popular with adult readers.

Outmoded is a good word and its not just the prose. The whole "hinting at things that could drive a man to madness" is not good enough for our imagination less darlings wandering schools these days, they have to see the eyeballs boiling in the sockets and limbs flying and need to see it within a few minutes before they have to get back to their texting.

Shit, they even play D&D on line.

D&D used to be some dice, some hit charts and a ton of imagination, now here it is all set up for you!
 
LC(the original) wouldn't fly today because like many authors of his time and before him his works are full of racism.

Honestly - more so than other authors of his time. With others, even when there's a lot of racism in the story, it's usually incidental. I can imagine Biggles, Tintin, Walter Scott, even Stoker's "Lair of the White Worm", being rewritten to remove the racist elements without losing their charm.

With HPL the racism is integral. "Arthur Jermyn" and "Shadow over Innsmouth" are based on a terror of miscegenation. If you took out the racist echoes, there'd be nothing left. And IRL, Lovecraft was more racist than most, even for his time:

"There surely is an actual Hitler peril–yet that cannot blind us to the honest rightness of the man’s basic urge ... I know he’s a clown, but by God, I like the boy!" - November 1936

He's a very effective horror writer, and I still read those stories, but I approach them with the mental equivalent of thick rubber gloves.

And you can't beat the classic Rats in the walls featuring a cat named niggerman.

And then there's Medusa's Coil...
 
Outmoded is a good word and its not just the prose. The whole "hinting at things that could drive a man to madness" is not good enough for our imagination less darlings wandering schools these days, they have to see the eyeballs boiling in the sockets and limbs flying and need to see it within a few minutes before they have to get back to their texting.

Yeah, the whole Things Man Was Not Meant to Know bugaboo just doesn't have as much clout in the age of Wikipedia.
 
word on it being technically correct, but in real life conversation "Yeah, so" suffices. "Yeah, so? I say." doesn't read or flow well.

It wasn't a question of what was enough or what would be better; it was a point of how to properly punctuate what was there. Strangely enough, it's sometimes proper to put a question mark or an exclamation point smack dab in the middle of the sentence.
 
Honestly - more so than other authors of his time. With others, even when there's a lot of racism in the story, it's usually incidental. I can imagine Biggles, Tintin, Walter Scott, even Stoker's "Lair of the White Worm", being rewritten to remove the racist elements without losing their charm.

With HPL the racism is integral. "Arthur Jermyn" and "Shadow over Innsmouth" are based on a terror of miscegenation. If you took out the racist echoes, there'd be nothing left. And IRL, Lovecraft was more racist than most, even for his time:

"There surely is an actual Hitler peril–yet that cannot blind us to the honest rightness of the man’s basic urge ... I know he’s a clown, but by God, I like the boy!" - November 1936

He's a very effective horror writer, and I still read those stories, but I approach them with the mental equivalent of thick rubber gloves.



And then there's Medusa's Coil...

His wasn't a normal racism as he was all but a shut in and sometimes I think an agoraphobic, His elderly aunts kept him the equivalent to a boy in the plastic bubble so he was ignorant of life outside in general, which didn;t help his dispositions on certain matters.
 
Your folks need to come to grips with your phobias.

I have no phobias.

But I will admit to being a little racist towards a certain type of person.

Personally I think anyone who says they fully embrace everyone regardless of color/gender/sexual preference/religious affiliation etc...

Is full of shit.

For example the ranting and raving and down right loathing of Republican's expressed here is nothing short of a form of racism, but no one would want to see it that way, cause the truth sucks.
 
I have no phobias.

But I will admit to being a little racist towards a certain type of person.

Personally I think anyone who says they fully embrace everyone regardless of color/gender/sexual preference/religious affiliation etc...

Is full of shit.

For example the ranting and raving and down right loathing of Republican's expressed here is nothing short of a form of racism, but no one would want to see it that way, cause the truth sucks.

I think people need to be who in hell they are, then go to work on who they wanna be.
 
Around LIT if you claim that your IQ is 1000 everyone tries to prove you wrong or a liar, but if you claim to be racist they take it as Gospel. Like its revealed Truth. Same as if you swear you been lovin faggots since before you was born.

And we cart all our bullshit to our reading, and as we read we make marks on our checklist. Hmmm he love the faggot, so that's a check! Great story! Uh oh! He aint got no condom on, gonna be hard to score this above a one.
 
Lovecraft also wrote years before the ADD and instant gratification crowd came along and the average reader wasn't running to google to look up all those big words.

Okay, you made me truly LOL at this. I was introduced to HPL when I was about 14, loaded with undiagnosed ADD, already a budding grammar fiend, and a hopeless logophile. I would read 3-4 short stories a night, savoring each precious line. I had some splendidly weird dreams (and hadn't even tried illegal substances yet). Lovecraft will always have a special place in my heart because of the way he plays with his dinner...errr, um, plays with his words. :D
 
Outmoded is a good word and its not just the prose. The whole "hinting at things that could drive a man to madness" is not good enough for our imagination less darlings wandering schools these days, they have to see the eyeballs boiling in the sockets and limbs flying and need to see it within a few minutes before they have to get back to their texting.

Shit, they even play D&D on line.

D&D used to be some dice, some hit charts and a ton of imagination, now here it is all set up for you!

My first DM was working on his Master's in Mathematics. Evil bastard.

I agree about hinting vs. in-your-face display. Have we become lazy? I'm not sure.

The book version of The Exorcist was so much more powerful to me than the film (I saw it roughly 3 months after reading the novel). Descriptions of the skitterings in the attic, read on a breezy evening, were enough to make me mark the page and finish that chapter by the safer light of day. (There's a plot bunny, horrific mayhem going down on a sunny spring morning.)

Conversely, there's a film that used what I think of as 'quickie' cinematography to great effect because the director exercised immense restraint. Check out The Believers from the late 80s. It's first class horror (IMO) but the really gory stuff is always shot with a 'burn your retinas and pull away' style. Your brain gets just enough to go WTF, allowing it to chew on its own without being spoon fed. (To this day, though, the worst scene by my reckoning in the whole flick is the mom's demise in the beginning. It's tough to explain why, but it still gives me chills. I think it's that sunny morning thing.)
 
I have no phobias.

But I will admit to being a little racist towards a certain type of person.

Personally I think anyone who says they fully embrace everyone regardless of color/gender/sexual preference/religious affiliation etc...

Is full of shit.

For example the ranting and raving and down right loathing of Republican's expressed here is nothing short of a form of racism, but no one would want to see it that way, cause the truth sucks.
I think I get where you're coming from but intolerance is not the same as racism. You can't just call anybody who's intolerant about non-race related issues a racist. Even judgmental might be a better word in this context.
 
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