What's wrong with this sentence. Or, what makes something klunky?

[Writer61]

But she led them to a table. Are you presuming that she might be StillStunned? I would expect she'd be slightly annoyed, perhaps surprised, but not stunned, and definitely not still in that condition. She would know where the table is; for all I know it could be in Hindi yesterday or Inuktitut even. I guess we should ask her.

I assume none of those things.

Note that the OP was AG31 and did not write it.

 

[filthytrancendence]

I think a lot of the replies up thread point out how the sentence just has more words/info that are necessary. You stumble a bit reading it.

Agreed. But I think it's clunky on 2 levels:

1. The motivating idea behind the sentence is clunky. It probably does not need to exist, and if it does, it needs to exist in a different way. i.e. scene setting, characterization, etc.
2. If we remove the sentence itself from the context of a story, those words in that order are clunky. In the sense that your brain trips over itself parsing the meaning. It does not flow.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I assume none of those things.

Note that the OP was AG31 and did not write it.

My apologies, but I do believe you were taking my posts seriously.

 

[Writer61]

W

My apologies, but I do believe you were taking my posts seriously.

I am not daft enough to think that a post which introduced language and days of the week was serious.

 

[NC_Coastal]

Ironically, the sentence has a vague resemblance to what Hemingway considered the perfect sentence (from 'For Whom the Bell Tolls"):

There were six men sitting at the table and leaning back against the wall.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

W

I am not daft enough to think that a post which introduced language and days of the week was serious.

Not to mention tables. Such an ambiguous word, wouldn't you say?

 

[AG31]

Ironically, the sentence has a vague resemblance to what Hemingway considered the perfect sentence (from 'For Whom the Bell Tolls"):

There were six men sitting at the table and leaning back against the wall.

No kidding! I'm not a Hemingway aficianado, but I think of his reputation as being minimalistic. What's with the "and" instead of a comma?

 

[crookedletter]

I don't have the context for this, but my first question is whether we need any of this information. If the characters are at a restaurant they can just poof to be sitting at a table. Unless the hostess -- if that's the 'She' -- is an essential character and her leading them to the table is somehow important, I would just skip the whole transition and go straight to "At dinner..." The reader can probably surmise that the characters have at some time in the interim found themselves a table and sat down, with or without someone's assistance.

 

[Cagivagurl]

I'm with @crookedletter not sure that is the problem...
As a stand alone sentence, it is clumsy.
There is obviously not enough context to decide whether it even needs to exist.
There have been a lot of questions posted regarding sentence structure, but always the same problem. Not enough context for a reply... My suggestion is... Include more of the story to highlight where you see the problem.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think Writer61 nailed it. It's not clunky grammatically, but the part about sitting down is unnecessary. It feels like filler.

 

[AG31]

My suggestion is... Include more of the story to highlight where you see the problem.

This was at the very beginning of the story, no particular context yet. My "problem" was that it felt clunky.

 

[NC_Coastal]

No kidding! I'm not a Hemingway aficianado, but I think of his reputation as being minimalistic. What's with the "and" instead of a comma?

A comma seperates to complete sentences.

 

[AG31]

A comma seperates to complete sentences.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. (I'm assuming "two" instead of "to.") Are you saying that you can't use a comma because it would not be two complete sentences? If so, commas separate lots of things, like the verbs(adjectives?) "sitting" and "leaning."

There were six men sitting at the table, leaning back against the wall.

 

[NC_Coastal]

...leaning back against the wall is a clause, not a complete sentence.

 

[NC_Coastal]

There are seven specific ways a comma is used.

 

[XerXesXu]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. (I'm assuming "two" instead of "to.") Are you saying that you can't use a comma because it would not be two complete sentences? If so, commas separate lots of things, like the verbs(adjectives?) "sitting" and "leaning."

There were six men sitting at the table, leaning back against the wall.

'There were a few men sitting at tables against the wall.' 'The Undefeated'. A bit wordy. Perhaps - 'At tables against the wall sat a few men.'

Is AH an appropriate venue to criticise Hemmingway for his wordiness?

 

[TheLobster]

Is AH an appropriate venue to criticise Hemmingway for his wordiness?

Of course. The H in AH stands for ‘hubris’.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Sat down is a redundancy. Sat, sit, lay, or laid don't require down; bed or chair can be used, but don't use down unless you have some specific reason for it. I laid the magazine on the table. I lay on the bed.

I was a short way into a story today and came upon, "She led us to a tbale and we sat down." Probably nothing. But it hit me as klunky and put me on alert for writing that would cause me not to finish the story. As it turned out, the writing was OK enough for me to finish. Maybe it was just that I was waiting for my coffee. But could this sentence be improved?

Do you have examples of klunkiness and examples of fixes?

 

[StillStunned]

What this thread shows is that good writing is most noticeable in its absence. Like with music or a movie's special effects, it's the awkward bits that trip you up.

And it takes skill and hard work to make it appear effortless. To see those unevennesses in the pavement, so to speak, and fix them before the reader stumbles over them. Or to see them, and decide to leave them because you want your reader to stumble, stop and pay attention.

 

[AG31]

Sat down is a redundancy. Sat, sit, lay, or laid don't require down; bed or chair can be used, but don't use down unless you have some specific reason for it. I laid the magazine on the table. I lay on the bed.

You're right that it's redundant, and this may be good advice for narration, but people actually say "sit down" all the time. "Let's sit down." "Sit down over there."

 

[AG31]

'There were a few men sitting at tables against the wall.' 'The Undefeated'. A bit wordy. Perhaps - 'At tables against the wall sat a few men.'

Is AH an appropriate venue to criticise Hemmingway for his wordiness?

Well, if he actually thought "There were six men sitting at the table and leaning back against the wall" was an example of a good sentence, then yeah.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I wasn't saying don't use it in dialogue, I was saying it's unnecessary in the narrative part and becomes another glue word. Glue words gum what you're saying and create the awkward wording you're trying to avoid.

You're right that it's redundant, and this may be good advice for narration, but people actually say "sit down" all the time. "Let's sit down." "Sit down over there."

 

[filthytrancendence]

What this thread shows is that good writing is most noticeable in its absence. Like with music or a movie's special effects, it's the awkward bits that trip you up.

And it takes skill and hard work to make it appear effortless. To see those unevennesses in the pavement, so to speak, and fix them before the reader stumbles over them. Or to see them, and decide to leave them because you want your reader to stumble, stop and pay attention.

Maybe it's the BDSM in me, but I think it might be better to conceptualize it as a leash.

You're leading the audience along, and the leash is always there. It's just when you yank on it when there's no good reason to they understandably bristle. But sometimes, a noticeable tug in the right direction is both needed and pleasurable for both parties.

 

[JenniferSmithJones]

I was a short way into a story today and came upon, "She led us to a tbale and we sat down." Probably nothing. But it hit me as klunky and put me on alert for writing that would cause me not to finish the story. As it turned out, the writing was OK enough for me to finish. Maybe it was just that I was waiting for my coffee. But could this sentence be improved?

Do you have examples of klunkiness and examples of fixes?

We took our seats at the table to which the hostess had brought us.

The hostess brought us to our table, and we took our seats.

As for me, I HATE when a sentence contains "had had," as in, "He realized he had had enough." It may be grammatically correct, but I hate it! But sometimes that's what you have to do.

 

[NC_Coastal]

The hostess sat us at our table.