Politeness and submission

[LaRascasse]

It happened to me.

So here I am, an active VE, corresponding with my authors (I am quite chatty over email).

By force of habit, I call women who are older than me "ma'am". It is something that has been ingrained deep into my psyche since I was a kid. Besides, there is no harm in showing some respect for the age difference.

Some people have said it makes them "feel old" and such, but my politeness has usually been lauded.

So you can imagine my shock when someone asks me about my submissive side and how have I explored it.

This dear lady was under the impression that I call other people ma'am because of my "innate submissiveness". I do not have so much as a submissive bone in my body, just to clarify. I am just old-school polite.

We shared a good laugh over it and I hope so do you.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I act polite and gentlemanly towards Femmes-- women who give the signals that they prefer chivalry. One such woman was a domme and she immediately read it as me showing my submissive side and tried to domme me from then on.

I would remind her that I was not submissive and certainly not HER sub, and things would be okay for a while. Then I would do something like step back so she could go through the door first, and we would be right back to the ownership attitude again. Eventually I just gave up the friendship.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

That's interesting. I was brought up to address women as 'ma'am' too, but somewhere along the line I dropped it. It became obsolete, didn't it? Or did it?

It's tough figuring out how to address people you don't know. I'm too old for 'dude' or 'bro', and too young for 'buddy' or 'pal'. Calling a man 'Friend' is just too sinister.

I guess I call younger waitresses 'Miss' but older ones are still 'ma'am'. Waiters are just 'Yo!'

And I find myself with the execrable habit of calling younger women 'honey'. I hate that and I never intend to do it, but it just seems to come out now that I'm over 65.

 

[TxRad]

That's interesting. I was brought up to address women as 'ma'am' too, but somewhere along the line I dropped it. It became obsolete, didn't it? Or did it?

It's tough figuring out how to address people you don't know. I'm too old for 'dude' or 'bro', and too young for 'buddy' or 'pal'. Calling a man 'Friend' is just too sinister.

I guess I call younger waitresses 'Miss' but older ones are still 'ma'am'. Waiters are just 'Yo!'

And I find myself with the execrable habit of calling younger women 'honey'. I hate that and I never intend to do it, but it just seems to come out now that I'm over 65.

I understand this all to well. I'm over 65 also. The only difference is I use "Little Bit" instead of Honey. I'm not sure where that came from.

Ma'am is definitely still in my vocabulary and is still used.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I act polite and gentlemanly towards Femmes-- women who give the signals that they prefer chivalry. One such woman was a domme and she immediately read it as me showing my submissive side and tried to domme me from then on.

I would remind her that I was not submissive and certainly not HER sub, and things would be okay for a while. Then I would do something like step back so she could go through the door first, and we would be right back to the ownership attitude again. Eventually I just gave up the friendship.

Dear Reader

STELLA is our official REAL BOY.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

YES SIR and YES MA'AM are the best route for all ages.

At a young age I learned that however you are someone's gonna have a hissy-fit with it, so my attitude is FUCK UM.

 

[Saxon Stonedyke]

It's always yes, Sir and yes. Ma'am from me, no matter what the age of the person I am speaking to. It is just how I was raised, though I was raised to be a Lady and turned out to be more of a Gentleman manners are just manners.

Because I have spent some time in MMORPs I tend to slip and use M'Lady now and then in e-mails or text's but not in public.

As far as the Femmes go I've had some that were flattered to have a door held for them and some that yelled at me for being sexist.

 

[BTTap]

I am a traditionalist in re: titles for people. I recall not so long ago that Nancy Pelosi rebuked a military officer who was testifying to a committee in Congress for addressing her as Ma'am. Apparently ignoring that Ma'am is a term of respect to a female superior to those in the military (the equivalent of "Sir"), and also an acceptable term to use when addressing a Representative according to the rules of the House of Representatives, she admonished the officer to call her "Congresswoman."
It irritated me at the time. I have always considered the term "Ma'am" as being one of respect, regardless of the age of the object of the term. What is the appropriate substitute? "Lady?" "Hey you?" Certainly not "Babe" (I've learned the hard way, at times). I'm not even going to consider "Bitch" or "Ho."

 

[lance gt]

I see the same decline in politeness in younger people, no manners or courtesies shown to anyone. It's got to the point that some are screaming PC in how to show manners.

I avoid using Miss, or Ma'am and just use love. "Excuse me love, could I get the check, please." Not one woman, young, or old, has taken offence to it. Most times, I avoid putting a gender to it and just say Excuse me, may I have the check please. I hold doors for both genders and especially seniors and mothers with strollers. What harm is showing some courtesy going to do? Anyone who would take offence, is clearly an angry individual with issues to deal with, like their identity.

At no time ever, do I feel submissive, or get challenged for showing a chivalrous act. I was raised with respect and like others, it's deeply ingrained in me to show it to people.

 

[sr71plt]

Well, if the officer was addressing all of the men on the panel as congressman, rather than sir, Pelso probably had a point. The officer probably addresses his male superiors as "sir."

I think it's a good term, and can't really see a better alternative in many cases--just used it a couple of times in a book chapter yesterday, and it was done by a stranger as a sign of respect. It's a whole lot better than hearing a waitress show up to a table of elderly ladies out for a luncheon saying "What can I get for you guys?"

 

[Cruel2BKind]

But it's kind of creepy?

Older people get a free pass. If somebody my grandpa's age calls me 'miss' or 'hon' or 'sweetheart' it's kind of okay. Unless they are creepy about it.

But with anyone my age, it's just weird. Not cute or polite, just awkward or even insulting.

I try to be polite to people older than me, I don't really use ma'am or sir, but I'm polite.

 

[Brunne]

I act polite and gentlemanly towards Femmes-- women who give the signals that they prefer chivalry. One such woman was a domme and she immediately read it as me showing my submissive side and tried to domme me from then on.

I would remind her that I was not submissive and certainly not HER sub, and things would be okay for a while. Then I would do something like step back so she could go through the door first, and we would be right back to the ownership attitude again. Eventually I just gave up the friendship.

For the non-submissive, accommodating or being respectful of another dominant personality is usually either a defense mechanism, or (in my opinion) in your case, just being mature and avoiding a clash. That usually takes confidence in your own energy that you don't feel in any way diminished by doing so.

On the flip side, having the need to dominate everyone at every turn and mistaking manners for submission sounds pretty immature and insecure. I've jettisoned several individuals from my life for less than that, and I'm not even dominant!

So basically, agreeing with you

 

[Handley_Page]

I realise that the modern woman is a different animal from when I was a kid.
"Sir" and "Ma'am" were nothing more than expressions of a polite nature and not indicating a superior or inferior position (in the military, they are the only words of formal address to a superior. Ms Pelosi was wrong).

Given that fashions move west somewhat slowly, it is only comparatively recently that the feminist shriekers are on their hind legs (again) about this subject, and the gentleman who was raised to be polite can get some really strange looks or words when holding a door for a relatively young woman.

At best it is regarded as "demeaning" at worst a reportable 'attack' on a woman (now there's a whole box of worms). Many men I know prefer to be considered "rude" by the ladies for whom an open door was merely polite. They don't seem to realise that 'the sisterhood' (or whatever it's called lately) has really screwed it all up.

 

[Cruel2BKind]

I realise that the modern woman is a different animal from when I was a kid.
"Sir" and "Ma'am" were nothing more than expressions of a polite nature and not indicating a superior or inferior position (in the military, they are the only words of formal address to a superior. Ms Pelosi was wrong).

Given that fashions move west somewhat slowly, it is only comparatively recently that the feminist shriekers are on their hind legs (again) about this subject, and the gentleman who was raised to be polite can get some really strange looks or words when holding a door for a relatively young woman.

At best it is regarded as "demeaning" at worst a reportable 'attack' on a woman (now there's a whole box of worms). Many men I know prefer to be considered "rude" by the ladies for whom an open door was merely polite. They don't seem to realise that 'the sisterhood' (or whatever it's called lately) has really screwed it all up.

It's one thing if a guy my age holds a door open for me, that's just polite. I hold doors open for guys.

It's quite another thing if a guy my age calls me honey, or love, or miss, or any of the other terms that we've been discussing on this thread. I've seen guys my age who try to do this, maybe emulating a parent or an older person, and it just ends up being creepy.

There are just some people who can use terms like ma'am, sir, dear, miss, and some who can't.

For instance, one of my female friends, she's my age and she calls me 'dear.' She can do that. It sounds natural when she does that. One of my other female friends started doing the same thing. I HATE it. Whenever friend B calls anyone 'dear' it sounds unnatural, condescending, and even insulting. When Friend A calls me 'dear' I don't care.

Maybe it's not even as divided among age and gender lines as we think. Maybe there are just people who can pull it off and people who can't.

 

[lance gt]

I realise that the modern woman is a different animal from when I was a kid.
"Sir" and "Ma'am" were nothing more than expressions of a polite nature and not indicating a superior or inferior position (in the military, they are the only words of formal address to a superior. Ms Pelosi was wrong).

Given that fashions move west somewhat slowly, it is only comparatively recently that the feminist shriekers are on their hind legs (again) about this subject, and the gentleman who was raised to be polite can get some really strange looks or words when holding a door for a relatively young woman.

At best it is regarded as "demeaning" at worst a reportable 'attack' on a woman (now there's a whole box of worms). Many men I know prefer to be considered "rude" by the ladies for whom an open door was merely polite. They don't seem to realise that 'the sisterhood' (or whatever it's called lately) has really screwed it all up.

I look at it this way, HP. If a woman feels she is discriminated by my 'chivalrous acts' and wishes to be taken as an equal, let's go to the unisex washroom and she can stand next to me at the urinal and take a piss, the same as me.

I've yet to receive a nasty look or response, when I hold the door for a woman, of any nationality. If it's a couple I treat them as one person and do the same for both, more so if they have kids to herd in, or out. Done with an honest smile to go with it, someone is just a sorry sort to complain.

 

[sr71plt]

Do people posting here seriously think that most folks who use "sir" and "ma'am" in their daily lives are thinking about sexual domination issues when they do so? I mean, seriously?

 

[Stella_Omega]

For the non-submissive, accommodating or being respectful of another dominant personality is usually either a defense mechanism, or (in my opinion) in your case, just being mature and avoiding a clash. That usually takes confidence in your own energy that you don't feel in any way diminished by doing so.

On the flip side, having the need to dominate everyone at every turn and mistaking manners for submission sounds pretty immature and insecure. I've jettisoned several individuals from my life for less than that, and I'm not even dominant!

So basically, agreeing with you

Thank you! And yeah-- it's an interesting balancing act, for those of us who have redefined ourselves one way or another.

Do people posting here seriously think that most folks who use "sir" and "ma'am" in their daily lives are thinking about sexual domination issues when they do so? I mean, seriously?

I doubt that most folks do. But as you can see from the top post, some folks do.

 

[sr71plt]

Then "some folks" probably need to put more balance into their lives.

 

[Stella_Omega]

hahaha okay, Pilot.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I see the same decline in politeness in younger people, no manners or courtesies shown to anyone. It's got to the point that some are screaming PC in how to show manners.

I avoid using Miss, or Ma'am and just use love. "Excuse me love, could I get the check, please." Not one woman, young, or old, has taken offence to it. Most times, I avoid putting a gender to it and just say Excuse me, may I have the check please. I hold doors for both genders and especially seniors and mothers with strollers. What harm is showing some courtesy going to do? Anyone who would take offence, is clearly an angry individual with issues to deal with, like their identity.

At no time ever, do I feel submissive, or get challenged for showing a chivalrous act. I was raised with respect and like others, it's deeply ingrained in me to show it to people.

Females are now as bad as the Niggaz about what to call them. Its become a GOTCHA trap, so the best course of action is to fuck em and not give em 2 thoughts.

 

[lance gt]

Females are now as bad as the Niggaz about what to call them. Its become a GOTCHA trap, so the best course of action is to fuck em and not give em 2 thoughts.

Not sure where you are, Jimmy, but the women up here enjoy politeness and courtesies. Our black population knows no discrimination of any kind, at least in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) where I live. You can go almost anywhere and never see or hear racism, because yes, we still have some holdouts like you up here.

Canada is the 'polite' country. It's in our nature and every immigrant adopts it happily.

 

[BTTap]

Females are now as bad as the Niggaz about what to call them. Its become a GOTCHA trap, so the best course of action is to fuck em and not give em 2 thoughts.

Wow.
I use "Sir" and "Ma'am" regardless of race and with minimal regard to age. I won't call a child or obviously younger person (still a rather significant minority for me) "Sir" or "Ma'am" except in very particular circumstances (business dealings, etc.). Luckily, our culture is becoming more and more informal, and people, even in the business world, resort to the first-name basis rather quickly.

 

[BTTap]

Not sure where you are, Jimmy, but the women up here enjoy politeness and courtesies. Our black population knows no discrimination of any kind, at least in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) where I live. You can go almost anywhere and never see or hear racism, because yes, we still have some holdouts like you up here.

Canada is the 'polite' country. It's in our nature and every immigrant adopts it happily.

I wonder if most of the black residents of the GTA agree with your statements as wholeheartedly as you do.....As with most things, easier said than done.

 

[Cruel2BKind]

Not sure where you are, Jimmy, but the women up here enjoy politeness and courtesies. Our black population knows no discrimination of any kind, at least in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) where I live. You can go almost anywhere and never see or hear racism, because yes, we still have some holdouts like you up here.

Canada is the 'polite' country. It's in our nature and every immigrant adopts it happily.

Don't make claims that aren't true.

 

[lance gt]

I wonder if most of the black residents of the GTA agree with your statements as wholeheartedly as you do.....As with most things, easier said than done.

I can assure you, they would agree.