I had my child out of wedlock, I chose not to marry her father

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

one step further,

when i met my ex, when my evil teen was still a baby, he took on the role as father. he chose this, read her bedtime stories, got called 'daddy'.
now we've split up he still pays for her. child support, pocket money, school uniforms & trips, etc.
i try to facilitate unlimited access to both the kids.

because once you've chosen to be a child's father then, regardless of whether the mother still agrees to shag you or not, you are that child's father forever.

Nonsense. Children have ONE father, the appellation isnt like a racing trophy that gets passed around from time to time. Your paramour isnt the father, he's a patron or benefactor

 

[Drixxx]

There is no doubt there is an issue of inequality when it comes to reproductive rights. However, there is too much gray area to ever come up with a legal code that is "fair".

In my opinion, a forced abortion is worse than a man being forced to pay child support for a child he did not want. Taxpayers paying for a child that a man can afford to help support is also worse than forcing a man to pay his share. So, unfortunately, when it comes to reproductive rights men often come out on the short end of the stick. It would probably behoove some of them to be more careful where they stick their penis.

What kind of crazy arguement is that? Forced abortion? Where in the western world is that happening? Taxpayers pay for other people's kids everyday. I know I do. Anybody who does not have children between the ages of 5 and 18 are paying for everyone else's kids who do. It's called the public school system. It's the way a civilized society works. People who don't drive pay for STOP signs and people who don't go out at nights pay for street lights. The moral outrage is people offended that somebody "had sex and got away with it". The same arguements and philosphy that is at the heart of the anti-abortion debate.

 

[Redatlit]

What kind of crazy arguement is that? Forced abortion? Where in the western world is that happening? Taxpayers pay for other people's kids everyday. I know I do. Anybody who does not have children between the ages of 5 and 18 are paying for everyone else's kids who do. It's called the public school system. It's the way a civilized society works. People who don't drive pay for STOP signs and people who don't go out at nights pay for street lights. The moral outrage is people offended that somebody "had sex and got away with it". The same arguements and philosphy that is at the heart of the anti-abortion debate.

You argue points people aren't making. You make leaps and slide the argument around. It's annoying. Try harder.


Women get to choose regardless of what the man wants to do............that is "unfair". So obviously we can't make the decision to abort "fair" since civilized people would not force the woman to abort. You are the one who brought up reproduction equality. I gave examples of why we can't make it "fair". Reproductive equality will never exist and unfortunately for men, reproduction rights will always favor the woman's interests.

 

[Drixxx]

Your debate skills are awful. You don't stay on point. You argue points people aren't making. You make leaps and slide the argument around. It's annoying. Try harder.


Women get to choose regardless of what the man wants to do............that is "unfair". So obviously we can't make the decision to abort "fair" since civilized people would not force the woman to abort. You are the one who brought up reproduction equality. I gave examples of why we can't make it "fair". Reproductive equality will never exist and unfortunately for men, reproduction rights will always favor the woman's interests.

What do you mean reproductive rights could never be fair? What if men said that about women's rights? That's nonsense. It's very easy to be fair. Men should be able to opt out of parenthood just like women. Several examples have been posted here already.

What you are really saying is you want women to have all the rights and make all of the 100% of the decisions in the reproductive process but not accept all the responsibility. Women decide whether they will have sex or not. They "know" whether birth control is being used or not. They decide whether to bring the pregnancy to term or not. Yet when it comes to the financial responsibility you want them to have the option to force somebody else to pay for a decision they made unilaterally.

 

[TexasWife25]

What do you mean reproductive rights could never be fair? What if men said that about women's rights? That's nonsense. It's very easy to be fair. Men should be able to opt out of parenthood just like women. Several examples have been posted here already.

What you are really saying is you want women to have all the rights and make all of the 100% of the decisions in the reproductive process but not accept all the responsibility. Women decide whether they will have sex or not. They "know" whether birth control is being used or not. They decide whether to bring the pregnancy to term or not. Yet when it comes to the financial responsibility you want them to have the option to force somebody else to pay for a decision they made unilaterally.

Whats your opinion on what WQ said? Tribunal of sorts, before the end of the 1st trimester?

 

[blunt_trauma]

i think it's one of those things where there is no fair way. there's just the best of the options you have.
a woman can force a man to become a father one conception occurs, but the reverse is not true.
a woman can decide to end a pregnancy but the reverse is abhorrent.
etc.

 

[Drixxx]

Whats your opinion on what WQ said? Tribunal of sorts, before the end of the 1st trimester?

Tribunal is a little silly. Just a law that determines exactly who the parents are and whether they accept responsibility for a child that carries their DNA. No responsibility. No rights. Simple.

 

[Redatlit]

What do you mean reproductive rights could never be fair? What if men said that about women's rights? That's nonsense. It's very easy to be fair. Men should be able to opt out of parenthood just like women. Several examples have been posted here already.

What you are really saying is you want women to have all the rights and make all of the 100% of the decisions in the reproductive process but not accept all the responsibility. Women decide whether they will have sex or not. They "know" whether birth control is being used or not. They decide whether to bring the pregnancy to term or not. Yet when it comes to the financial responsibility you want them to have the option to force somebody else to pay for a decision they made unilaterally.

Unfortunately, because another living being, who had no say in any of this, is involved it is impossible to meet your standard of fair. Because only the woman should have the final say of whether or not she has an abortion it is impossible to meet your standard of fair. Because in cases of need the child would have to be partially or fully supported with public funds if the father walked away it's impossible to meet your standard of fair. Trying to equate reproduction rights with other rights is ridiculous.

I am a responsible person and would accept the responsibility of my decision. However, I am not about to say that all men should be relinquished of their responsibility to pay support simply because a woman chooses not to abort his child at his request. Can you not see the unintended negative consequences of that sort of legislation?

Women decide whether they will have sex or not, but a man is just a poor victim with no choice in the matter? Women know if birth control is being used but a man can't protect himself? Talk about not accepting any responsibility. Good grief.

 

[Redatlit]

i think it's one of those things where there is no fair way. there's just the best of the options you have.
a woman can force a man to become a father one conception occurs, but the reverse is not true.
a woman can decide to end a pregnancy but the reverse is abhorrent.
etc.

Stop being logical. It's not "fair" so it's wrong!!!

 

[Drixxx]

Unfortunately, because another living being, who had no say in any of this, is involved it is impossible to meet your standard of fair. Trying to equate reproduction rights with other rights is ridiculous.

I am a responsible person and would accept the responsibility of my decision. However, I am not about to say that all men should be relinquished of their responsibility to pay support simply because a woman chooses not to abort his child at his request. Can you not see the unintended negative consequences of that sort of legislation?

Women decide whether they will have sex or not, but a man is just a poor victim with no choice in the matter? Women know if birth control is being used but a man can't protect himself? Talk about not accepting any responsibility. Good grief.

This is just an exercise in old time religion, patriarchal, women are the property and responsibility of the men who fuck them philosphy. The last remnants of the old testament punishment fetish for those who choose to have sex and get caught.

This isn't about the best interest of the child. It's all focused on punishing those who had sex and are perceived to have gotten away with it. It's the exact same emotions and arguements that fuel the anti-abortion crusaders.

 

[Redatlit]

This is just an exercise in old time religion, patriarchal, women are the property and responsibility of the men who fuck them philosphy. The last remnants of the old testament punishment fetish for those who choose to have sex and get caught.

This isn't about the best interest of the child. It's all focused on punishing those who had sex and are perceived to have gotten away with it. It's the exact same emotions and arguements that fuel the anti-abortion crusaders.

That's a simple argument for a complicated issue. It sounds good and "fair" and enlightened, but in reality it's the argument of bitter men who don't want to accept THEIR responsibility because they CHOSE to have sex and it resulted in a child the women didn't want to abort.

 

[Drixxx]

That's a simple argument for a complicated issue. It sounds good and "fair" and enlightened, but in reality it's the argument of bitter men who don't want to accept THEIR responsibility because they CHOSE to have sex and it resulted in a child the women didn't want to abort.

No. It's left over morality from a time when things like reliable birth control, female emancipation, and social safety nets didn't exist.

 

[Drixxx]

That's a simple argument for a complicated issue. It sounds good and "fair" and enlightened, but in reality it's the argument of bitter men who don't want to accept THEIR responsibility because they CHOSE to have sex and it resulted in a child the women didn't want to abort.

Does this philosophy apply to women who chose adoption as well or is it just a sentiment reserved for men?

 

[blunt_trauma]

what about in cases where the man took advantage? snuck the rubber off (yes, it happens) or crossed the line with a drunk partner? there the pregnancy is foisted on the woman, and the choice to abort or raise doesn't seem quite so powerful.

 

[cubbies]

what about in cases where the man took advantage? snuck the rubber off (yes, it happens) or crossed the line with a drunk partner? there the pregnancy is foisted on the woman, and the choice to abort or raise doesn't seem quite so powerful.

crossing the line with a drunk partner is rape.

 

[blunt_trauma]

crossing the line with a drunk partner is rape.

and your point is?

pretty much impossible to prove. her word against his.
in cases like that, should the guy get an opt out?

 

[cubbies]

and your point is?

pretty much impossible to prove. her word against his.
in cases like that, should the guy get an opt out?

like you said impossible to prove. but i believe a drunk girl can't give consent. classic he said, she said.

 

[blunt_trauma]

like you said impossible to prove. but i believe a drunk girl can't give consent. classic he said, she said.

life is full of unfairness.
sometimes there are nothing but shitty choices and you just have to pick the least shitty.

 

[warrior queen]

Tribunal is a little silly. Just a law that determines exactly who the parents are and whether they accept responsibility for a child that carries their DNA. No responsibility. No rights. Simple.

That's too simple.
It doesn't take into account men who change their minds after a while - like my ex, who after 13 years, suddenly decides he wants all the rights to interaction, but makes it so I have to take him through a govt dept just to get $31 a month in mainenence.
If there's a system in place for women to force maintenence, why shouldn't there be a system in place for men to be able to opt out early enough for the woman to be able to make an informed decision as to whether or not she wants to continue with a pregnancy, KNOWING absolutely that she will not get a cent from the father?
Then there's no way an unwilling father could be forced to pay for a child he either doesn't want, or that resulted from a mishap like condom failure.

 

[cubbies]

That's too simple.
It doesn't take into account men who change their minds after a while - like my ex, who after 13 years, suddenly decides he wants all the rights to interaction, but makes it so I have to take him through a govt dept just to get $31 a month in mainenence.
If there's a system in place for women to force maintenence, why shouldn't there be a system in place for men to be able to opt out early enough for the woman to be able to make an informed decision as to whether or not she wants to continue with a pregnancy, KNOWING absolutely that she will not get a cent from the father?
Then there's no way an unwilling father could be forced to pay for a child he either doesn't want, or that resulted from a mishap like condom failure.

i'm on board but good luck with that.

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

That's too simple.
It doesn't take into account men who change their minds after a while - like my ex, who after 13 years, suddenly decides he wants all the rights to interaction, but makes it so I have to take him through a govt dept just to get $31 a month in mainenence.
If there's a system in place for women to force maintenence, why shouldn't there be a system in place for men to be able to opt out early enough for the woman to be able to make an informed decision as to whether or not she wants to continue with a pregnancy, KNOWING absolutely that she will not get a cent from the father?
Then there's no way an unwilling father could be forced to pay for a child he either doesn't want, or that resulted from a mishap like condom failure.

There is. He can opt out before he fucks her. In all of my 41 years only once has a man said to me prior to sex (to paraphrase), "Just so you know, I am in no way ready to be a father, so if anything happens I will do my best to remove myself from the situation. You'd get an abortion, right?" Guys, you know how things work in this country. You know the rules are against you. Why can't you have a conversation before you have sex so you can gauge whether you are like minded on the issue?

 

[Marci_M]

Well this thread certainly took a turn for the stupid.

Totally! I hate when that happens

 

[RobDownSouth]

Goddamn, this thread reached 7 pages? How?

Someone re-cap for me. I don't want to read it, and I'm cute. I feel that's enough justification to ask for a summery.

Some women are of the opinion that they can raise a child just fine without having the child's father around.

Some men are naturally aghast at that thought.

 

[Redatlit]

Does this philosophy apply to women who chose adoption as well or is it just a sentiment reserved for men?

I don't believe a woman can give her baby up for adoption if the biological father wants the baby. That said, if the woman is the one who "walks away" she should have to pay child support to the father. I believe that is how it works, anyway. No?

 

[blunt_trauma]

I don't believe a woman can give her baby up for adoption if the biological father wants the baby. That said, if the woman is the one who "walks away" she should have to pay child support to the father. I believe that is how it works, anyway. No?

if the mother doesn't want it the father can have it, and if the father doesn't want it either it goes to adoption?