Ideas that sound good, but...............

Ishmael

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Last night in the presidents State of the Union speech the proposal was put forth that all kids should be made to stay in school until they either get their HS diploma or turn 18.

In principle I actually agree with the president on this one. Education is one of the keys to success in life and ignoring that public education is abysmal in this country today, getting a HS diploma is a step up on ladder towards success.

But thinking this through, just how would you begin to enforce such a law? Not pay the states for kids not in school? Well, they're not being paid now. Not a lot of leverage there. Turn truancy into a criminal offense? Criminalize the parent(s)? Build schools that have more in common with medium security prisons and only let the kids out on the weekends for good behavior?

The implementation of this "idea" is nightmarish in both costs and erosion's of liberty.

Ishmael
 
Last night in the presidents State of the Union speech the proposal was put forth that all kids should be made to stay in school until they either get their HS diploma or turn 18.

In principle I actually agree with the president on this one. Education is one of the keys to success in life and ignoring that public education is abysmal in this country today, getting a HS diploma is a step up on ladder towards success.

But thinking this through, just how would you begin to enforce such a law? Not pay the states for kids not in school? Well, they're not being paid now. Not a lot of leverage there. Turn truancy into a criminal offense? Criminalize the parent(s)? Build schools that have more in common with medium security prisons and only let the kids out on the weekends for good behavior?

The implementation of this "idea" is nightmarish in both costs and erosion's of liberty.

Ishmael

Many states have truancy laws that they enforce, including laws that fine or jail either the child or the parent.

There are lot of things states could do or try that might work better for them. Rewarding instead of just punishing, school reforms, changing the curriculum.

I think its up to the states to decide how best to help their students stay in school

Although Im gonna love seeing people argue that having a higher population with a high school diploma is a bad thing :rolleyes:

If the president said breathing was a good idea I'm sure there would be 3 threads up on how hes full of shit, that the government shouldn't endorse breathing and that somehow breathing is a plot to steal your money :rolleyes:
 
I rememeber reading that it is a state thing and is that way in some states already.

He have school duty until 9th grade (age 15-16) in Sweden. High School is voluntary. The percentage that don't enroll in HS or drop out before graduation is something like 2%.

So you don't need that. You need a school culture. But that's harder to legislate into being.

I suspect one reason we have high HS attendance is that the next step, (college as well as many other complimentary courses, job training programs,et al) is tuition free and student loans for rent and beer are generous. High School itself don't lead to jobs, so many go as a stepping stone/preparation course for a real education after that, and nobody needs to opt out because they can't afford it.

(the downside of that is that colleges in some places become adult day-care centers for people who can't get a job. unemployable? don't worry, academia will take care of ya indefinitely)
 
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Many states have truancy laws that they enforce, including laws that fine or jail either the child or the parent.
Ah, see. Maybe I should read the replies abobe before I write my posts. ;)
 
This nation is so far down the socialist path and the lemmings are so the majority that another proposal instituting federal force, control, and regulation over a people Constitutionally guaranteed individual liberty...

...is debated for whether or not it's "good" for the children.

Socialists are driven by the illegitimate fuel that if the Constitution doesn't specifically prohibit the federal government from an action (any action), then that action (any action) is up to either whatever electeds are in session and/or the illegitimate democracy to decide...

...whereas the Constitution - the law - specifically grants our republican form of government the power it does have, and specifically states that if government is not enumerated that power Constitutionally, that act (whatever act) is the exclusive purview of the states and the people.

This federal education crap is not granted to the federal government by the Constitution...

...if the People want federalized education, they must first Amend the Constitution to make it law.

It has nothing to do with what's good or bad for the collective...

...America isn't a democracy.

It has everything to do with respecting the law...

...which is the only way a republic can survive.
 
Although Im gonna love seeing people argue that having a higher population with a high school diploma is a bad thing :rolleyes:

Meaningless diplomas awarded for compulsory attendance? Can't see any particular benefit to those.:eek:

I can see where a decent high-school level education would be an overall "good thing" but that hasn't had any real connection to possession of a diploma in decades. :(:(
 
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Meaningless diplomas awarded for compulsory attendance? Can't see any particular benefit to those.:eek:

I can see where a decent high-school level education would be an overall "good thing" but that hasn't had any real connection to possession of a diploma in decades. :(:(

Even most minimum wage jobs require you to have a high school diploma or GED.
So while I agree you don't learn nearly as much practical information in high school, the alternative is a group of people who are almost solely unemployable.
 
I rememeber reading that it is a state thing and is that way in some states already.

He have school duty until 9th grade (age 15-16) in Sweden. High School is voluntary. The percentage that don't enroll in HS or drop out before graduation is something like 2%.

So you don't need that. You need a school culture. But that's harder to legislate into being.

I suspect one reason we have high HS attendance is that the next step, (college as well as many other complimentary courses, job training programs,et al) is tuition free and student loans for rent and beer are generous. High School itself don't lead to jobs, so many go as a stepping stone/preparation course for a real education after that, and nobody needs to opt out because they can't afford it.

(the downside of that is that colleges in some places become adult day-care centers for people who can't get a job. unemployable? don't worry, academia will take care of ya indefinitely)

There it is.

Ishmael
 
I wish I had an argument one way or another on this subject. But I'm torn between believing education is the stepping stone to a better life and wondering if it really matters anymmore. Back when my father was a young man, a high school diploma made a good job and success a sure thing. Then, everyone was encouraged to graduate high school. This made the college diploma the rarity, and so, soon, it became the stepping stone to a better life, and not surprisingly, everyone was encouraged to get a college education. How much 'better' can we promise today for those grasping that college diploma as the go about their job search? What will become the next stepping stone?

My BIL, a HS graduate, recently left a job he'd had, and had successfully for many yrs. He was offered incentives to stay, to say he was valued would be an understatement. Sis and i were talking the other day and she told me his ex-employers had now decided that job required a bachelors degree.
 
Ideas that sound good, but....

  1. Claiming patents are yours when they are not
  2. Making threads about Murdoch which turn badly
  3. Claiming to make an Anti-Obama commercial that never surfaces

^^Ish guilty of all these bad ideas.
 
  1. Claiming patents are yours when they are not
  2. Making threads about Murdoch which turn badly
  3. Claiming to make an Anti-Obama commercial that never surfaces

^^Ish guilty of all these bad ideas.

Well, that post was right on topic you ignorant piece of dog shit.

Ishmael
 
American schools are a mess. Aging equipment, books, and buildings. Parents that think the system is government babysitting. Add to that a bunch of little fucks that want to do anything other than sit down and actually learn something.

18 is too old to force a kid to sit in class. If he or she wants to go out and learn a trade, then go. Books are not for everybody. Save the resources for a student that is going to learn. Save the resources for a student that is not only showing up everyday to be a pain in the ass.
 
American schools are a mess. Aging equipment, books, and buildings. Parents that think the system is government babysitting. Add to that a bunch of little fucks that want to do anything other than sit down and actually learn something.

18 is too old to force a kid to sit in class. If he or she wants to go out and learn a trade, then go. Books are not for everybody. Save the resources for a student that is going to learn. Save the resources for a student that is not only showing up everyday to be a pain in the ass.


amen, brother
 
Meaningless diplomas awarded for compulsory attendance? Can't see any particular benefit to those.:eek:

I can see where a decent high-school level education would be an overall "good thing" but that hasn't had any real connection to possession of a diploma in decades. :(:(

Even most minimum wage jobs require you to have a high school diploma or GED....

You completely ducked the point: It isn't the piece of paper that should matter, it's the education it is supposed to represent.
 
You completely ducked the point: It isn't the piece of paper that should matter, it's the education it is supposed to represent.

I dont see how I ducked the point, I agree, I wish you could guarantee that getting a high school diploma meant that you actually got a comprehensive education that in some way prepared you for the real world. However, you asked what the benefit of having a meaningless piece of paper was...

The benefit is getting a job. Even if its just a crappy job at McDonald. Yes while some crappy jobs will hire you regardless, most wont, and all will hire the guy who has that piece of paper over you.


Uhmm, you can't legislate attitude.

I have no idea what your talking about
go back , read the conversation, form a coherent reply
kthanks
 
Here in Tasmania, we actually do have legislation that require all kids to complete HS.
But it absolutely does NOT work.
My case is a perfect example - when my daughter ran away and dropped out of school, I tried to use the law to get her back into school, at the very least.
I actually presented myself front-and-centre to the Dept of Education, and told them my daughter had been out of school for 5 months, and also told them I wished to be prosecuted as a Parent of Truant (which is what the law says should happen. My thinking was I could at least force her to finish her education.)
End result? Nothing.
They told me they would not prosecute, because it would be difficult.
The law is there, but much too hard to enforce.
The current drop-out rate in my state is about 16%.
 
Meaningless diplomas awarded for compulsory attendance? Can't see any particular benefit to those.:eek:

I can see where a decent high-school level education would be an overall "good thing" but that hasn't had any real connection to possession of a diploma in decades. :(:(

I agree.

Some people were not meant to be in school (through attitude or aptitude) and making them stay doesn't help them at all and is a tremendous waste of dollars. You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

The down side of this is that people who don't want to be there can often be disruptive of the people who do.
 
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This nation is so far down the socialist path and the lemmings are so the majority that another proposal instituting federal force, control, and regulation over a people Constitutionally guaranteed individual liberty...

...is debated for whether or not it's "good" for the children.

Socialists are driven by the illegitimate fuel that if the Constitution doesn't specifically prohibit the federal government from an action (any action), then that action (any action) is up to either whatever electeds are in session and/or the illegitimate democracy to decide...

...whereas the Constitution - the law - specifically grants our republican form of government the power it does have, and specifically states that if government is not enumerated that power Constitutionally, that act (whatever act) is the exclusive purview of the states and the people.

This federal education crap is not granted to the federal government by the Constitution...

...if the People want federalized education, they must first Amend the Constitution to make it law.

It has nothing to do with what's good or bad for the collective...

...America isn't a democracy.

It has everything to do with respecting the law...

...which is the only way a republic can survive.

I hope you're close to something soft to pass out on. Because I wholeheartedly agree.

Of course, I would also argue that there is no appreciable benefit from an additional two years of compulsory education for those "children" who would have dropped out anyway.
 
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