Dialogue punctuation

[PennLady]

Someone (on another site) questioned some punctuation in my Christmas story, which is fine. I believe I'm right, but I cannot find an online resource that even has this example, let alone says whether it's right or wrong, and I don't have the CMS or anything.

So, the line in question is:

"What?" His girlfriend, Noelle Winters, gave him a puzzled look.

The commenter believes that that the word "his" should be lower case. I disagree.

I put this to a friend of mine, who thinks either is correct, although he thought another example might show it better, to get rid of the question mark.

"I don't know about that." His girlfriend gave him a skeptical look.

vs.

"I don't know about that," his girlfriend gave him a skeptical look.

I still believe the first one to be correct.

Basically, I've learned/been taught that if there is no speech word following the dialogue, then the dialogue should end in a period (or other appropriate mark) and then the next word of the next sentence is capitalized.

So, can someone cite a resource or point me somewhere that would answer this?

 

[Darkniciad]

For the line in question, you're absolutely right. That's not a dialogue tag, it's an action following the dialogue. It's no different than starting a new sentence.

If it was a tag... That I'm not sure about. I've heard that the pronouns should be lower case, but I'll let SR cite the authorities for confirmation of that.

 

[PennLady]

For the line in question, you're absolutely right. That's not a dialogue tag, it's an action following the dialogue. It's no different than starting a new sentence.

If it was a tag... That I'm not sure about. I've heard that the pronouns should be lower case, but I'll let SR cite the authorities for confirmation of that.

Yeah, if I'd written:

"What?" his girlfriend asked, giving him a puzzled look.

Then definitely, the his should be lower case.

It's actually kind of amusing trying to find documentation that backs this up when it seems so basic, you know? But nothing I found addressed this.

 

[Darkniciad]

Probably no documentation because it's covered under basic grammar *laugh*

The commenter is just mistaking it for a dialogue tag and applying what I assume is the correct form in that case.

 

[PennLady]

Here's the original comment:

Excellent punctuation, I noticed at the start, until this: "What?" His girlfriend...

His is a speech verb, indicating who said that which preceded it, in which case, unless otherwise necessary (I said for example, the 'I' always being capitalised), the first letter should be lower case: his girlfriend...

It applies to both '?' and '!'

Breaking up speech sentences: "You would say that." He shook his head. "That's...

Comma after 'that' and 'he' shook, as the speech verb continues the sentence.

He's absolutely adamant about this. He seems to totally not get the idea of NOT using dialogue tags all the time, at least not direct tags.

 

[PennLady]

These are not definitive, of course, but I finally did locate some sites that addressed this issue.

This one is all about dialogue: http://www.sycophanthex.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49&Itemid=41

This one is about punctuation in general, with a section dialogue. http://www.ponyfictionarchive.net/viewpage.php?page=english

 

[SydneyBlake]

You had it right, Penn. Fuck him!

Sorry, I couldn't resist, and I haven't even been drinking.

 

[PennLady]

You had it right, Penn. Fuck him!

Sorry, I couldn't resist, and I haven't even been drinking.

LOL No problem. Hey, it's the weekend, right?

I have composed my last reply to this guy. What's annoying is he keeps throwing the wrong examples at me. He keeps giving me sentences like

"I don't know," he said.

Well of frakking course that's right! I never said it wasn't! But what I did is also correct. He's also said one site I listed is not to be trusted as they did not list the en-dash as a method of ending a sentence (after period, other marks). Jeee-zus.

 

[SydneyBlake]

LOL No problem. Hey, it's the weekend, right?

I have composed my last reply to this guy. What's annoying is he keeps throwing the wrong examples at me. He keeps giving me sentences like

"I don't know," he said.

Well of frakking course that's right! I never said it wasn't! But what I did is also correct. He's also said one site I listed is not to be trusted as they did not list the en-dash as a method of ending a sentence (after period, other marks). Jeee-zus.

It's time to start fucking with his head.

 

[PennLady]

It's time to start fucking with his head.

Unfortunately, I'm not good at that. Mostly due to lack of patience. And lack of cunning.

So, here was the guy's last email to me.

I am, quite correctly, as the text which precedes the examples I sent you states, objecting to anything other than direct speech being placed in double quotes. You have, in several places, put double quotes around inferences. By putting quotes around inferences, you are conveying that the person making them is actually saying them, which they are not. That is why quotes go around direct speech, so as to make it clear that what is inside them is direct speech and not thoughts, inferences and what someone says in their head.

I find your final attitude on this matter selfish, owing to the fact that you should be making it easy for the reader to understand what you are conveying, which you refuse to want to do.

I wrote back, told him no one else has ever made the objections he has. I even (in a previous email) typed out a passage from a Nora Roberts novel (writing as JD Robb) where she does all the things I do with and without dialogue tags, etc.

Anyway, what a bozo. I told him he better stop reading fiction, since it seems to break all the rules he insists are necessary.

Now I'm going to go back to being selfish I guess.

 

[SydneyBlake]

<<I am, quite correctly, as the blah, blah, blah, blah .... I find your final attitude on this matter selfish, owing to the fact that blah, blah, blah, blah.... >>

I am, quite correctly, objecting to your supposition that my attitude on this matter is selfish, owing to the fact that you are an asshole. I do, however, agree with your statement that I should make it easy for the reader to understand what I am conveying. In that vein, I wish to submit the following:

"You are an asshole."

I find your persistence in this matter to be unnecessary cockulance and an example of pure dickery. If you wish to pursue it further, you're welcome to submit your objections to the Department of Who Gives a Flying Fuck.


See, Penn? Just like that. Of course, don't put my name on that shit.

 

[sr71plt]

He's full of beans.

(The example of quoted direct discourse given in Chicago Manual of Style, edition 16, 13.37 doesn't have dialogue slugs.)

Need to send this guy to the bookshelf to see how dialogue is handled in mainstream novels.

And what's the nonsense about ending sentences with en dashes?

 

[SydneyBlake]

And what's the nonsense about ending sentences with en dashes?

I have seen that, and I think I saw it in the CMS. But I haven't renewed my subscription, so I can't point you to the section where I saw it.

My previous statement still stands.

Edited: I do have the note I copied, which says "[an em dash] indicates a sudden break in thought or sentence structure or an interruption in dialogue (no period after)"

So it's the em dash, not the en dash.

 

[PennLady]

See, Penn? Just like that. Of course, don't put my name on that shit.

Syd, I am in awe.

He's full of beans.

(The example of quoted direct discourse given in Chicago Manual of Style, edition 16, 13.37 doesn't have dialogue slugs.)

Need to send this guy to the bookshelf to see how dialogue is handled in mainstream novels.

And what's the nonsense about ending sentences with en dashes?

I thought he was full of more than just beans, but I don't have the rules at hand to quote. And I did in fact, type out almost a page of a paperback by Nora Roberts (one of her Eve Dallas novels) that demonstrated the dialogue without tags. He never so much as acknowledged it, not that I really thought he would.

Not saying she's the greatest writer, but I'm thinking she's an established, best-selling author and has been for years. She's a good example.

So it's the em dash, not the en dash.

That's what I thought but it was hardly worth mentioning at that point.

 

[sr71plt]

Yes, an em dash can appear at the end of a sentence. That's a different punctuation mark than an en dash, though.

 

[PennLady]

Yes, an em dash can appear at the end of a sentence. That's a different punctuation mark than an en dash, though.

I know that, and you know that, but I was too selfish to tell him.

 

[SydneyBlake]

I know that, and you know that, but I was too selfish to tell him.

You selfish bitch. Now that guy is going to spend the rest of his life completing sentences with en dashes, and everyone around him will roll their eyes and say, "What a dick."

Oh, but they probably do that already, anyway.

And I notice you don't say why you are in awe. LOL.

 

[PennLady]

You selfish bitch. Now that guy is going to spend the rest of his life completing sentences with en dashes, and everyone around him will roll their eyes and say, "What a dick."

Oh, but they probably do that already, anyway.

And I notice you don't say why you are in awe. LOL.

Well, serves him right. He sure acted like a dick. And, exactly.

There are too many awe-inspiring reasons for me to list.

 

[CarlusMagnus]

Well, serves him right. He sure acted like a dick. And, exactly.

There are too many awe-inspiring reasons for me to list.

The asshole gave himself away when he wrote "His is a speech verb…"

He demonstrated there that he doesn't know how to use quotation marks ("His" should've been quoted in that sentence.) and that he doesn't know much about grammar ("'His' is a verb?)

You've been right all along about the way you presented that dialogue, PL. And he's been dead wrong; a lower case letter would've been wrong there.

I don't know what he's talking about regarding inferences, because I haven't read what you wrote. Does he mean places where you presented thoughts a character had to him-/herself? Those can appropriately be put into quotes, though a tag should indicate that they're thoughts and not speech. I usually, rightly or wrongly, set thoughts in italics and include the tag, to make it very clear that they weren't spoken.

 

[PennLady]

The asshole gave himself away when he wrote "His is a speech verb…"

He demonstrated there that he doesn't know how to use quotation marks ("His" should've been quoted in that sentence.) and that he doesn't know much about grammar ("'His' is a verb?)

Yes, I know. I guess I decided to let that slide -- gave him the benefit of the doubt in terms of a typo. Obviously in retrospect, I was too nice.

You've been right all along about the way you presented that dialogue, PL. And he's been dead wrong; a lower case letter would've been wrong there.

I don't know what he's talking about regarding inferences, because I haven't read what you wrote. Does he mean places where you presented thoughts a character had to him-/herself? Those can appropriately be put into quotes, though a tag should indicate that they're thoughts and not speech. I usually, rightly or wrongly, set thoughts in italics and include the tag, to make it very clear that they weren't spoken.

As far as I could tell, by "inferences" he meant any place I had dialogue in quotation marks but without an attribution tag like "he said." So in the example sentence he cited, he was saying the reader had to infer that Noelle, the girlfriend, was speaking.

This is so difficult?

Anyway, like I said, I actually typed out a passage from a novel to show him how the pros do it. Nary a comment on that.

I like to put the thoughts of my characters in italics, although I gather there's been a movement away from that. In the last book I did with my editor (prior to Numbers Game), she told me was removing those italics (not the text, just the italics). Then I grabbed a recent book and looked through and could find NO incidents of italicized thoughts. I tried looking it up, and as far I could find the jury was kind of out on that. I still do it, but not as much.

 

[Chiara23]

I'm not 100% sure myself but I have a 'Canadian Press Style Guide' at home which should cover that sort of thing. I will check it and get back to you. It should be universal for sentence structure. I also have a 'CP Guide to Caps and Spelling' at home as well. Again it should carry over to US grammar rules as well.

Best Regards,

Chiara

Hell I'm not even sure if what I just wrote is 100% correct...I need more coffee I think.

 

[sr71plt]

I wouldn't count on Canadian style translating directly to U.S. style. (That said, I don't have a clue what style the Canadians use. I would think it would be closer to U.S. style than British, but I don't know.)

 

[nakdsub]

I have a question...

Who cares. I can't believe someone would even take the time to write about such a trivial thing in a good story. Are they reading the story to enjoy its content, or are they editing the grammer?

 

[ManhattanMinx]

Here's the original comment:



He's absolutely adamant about this. He seems to totally not get the idea of NOT using dialogue tags all the time, at least not direct tags.

A speech verb?

 

[PennLady]

Who cares. I can't believe someone would even take the time to write about such a trivial thing in a good story. Are they reading the story to enjoy its content, or are they editing the grammer?

Well I'm not sure if he even finished the story since he started commenting about the second sentence. He did read past it b/c he said he noticed I did certain things in other places. But whether he actually read the story? Unknown. I've had grammar stuff trip me up, but usually it doesn't bother me unless it's basic, repeated, or the rest of the story also has issues.