Not Submissive Anymore: A Spinoff

[BiBunny]

The idea for this thread came from an exchange in eastern sun's "marks of a slave" thread. It starts a little more than halfway down this page and continues on to the next. Here is a short excerpt of the discussion.

I am also learning that when I am being strong willed, and even if my dominant admits that I may be right..it doesn't matter. He still wants what he wants, and gets what he wants.

I'm in awe of people who can do this. I don't have it in me anymore.

Bunny...I think you and I should start a new thread to discuss this issue specifically. I fell like you do. I am in awe of those that can do it, but every fiber of my being rejects the mere thought of it...

Great idea for a thread...I would appreciate the chance to discuss this.

I won't excerpt the whole thing here. Those are just bits and pieces. I know eastern sun had some questions/comment, as did ecstaticsub, so if you ladies would like to bring the discussion here, that'd be cool.

I will say more when I get a little more caught up today.

 

[Bandit58]

This is why I don't think I could ever be a slave. That instinct of "self preservation" is too strong in me.

Having lived through over 20 years of an emotionally abusive vanilla relationship, I have worked too hard to gain that inner strength (self-esteem if you will) to allow me to survive, on my own if it comes to that. I feel there's too much leeway for a PYL to take advantage of a slave's willingness to obey.

That said, I trust Sir with my life. I'm lucky in that He has never wanted to control me in ways which would make me feel uncomfortable. He's never wanted control of finances for example. That's one of my hard limits - I would never give up control of my own money to another. In fact, I am the one who pays our bills and has access to both our bank accounts....He doesn't have access to mine and doesn't want it anyway

There have been a couple of times when He's asked me to do things which I've suddenly froze and been unable to comply. One of those involved approaching a Domme at a play party and asking Her if She would like to give me a spanking.... I literally could not do it (I am terribly shy).

He forgave me

 

[JMohegan]

I'm not "in awe of people who can do this." I just think they're wired differently than I am.

"Every fiber of my being rejects the mere thought of it." Exactly.


Maybe your s-type urges are inherently person-specific, or maybe the urges themselves have just moved on. Either way, don't beat yourself up.

 

[HottieMama]

Let me say first of all that I separate the D/s life and kinky sex. I have been having kinky sex since I turned 18, but only involved in D/s relationships for the past 7 years or so.

I think I came into the D/s aspect of this lifestyle as many do...wide-eyed, a little bit awe-struck and very, VERY eager. I went through a handful of online doms, and eventually moved to a 100% face to face D/s relationship. It didn't go well for a variety of reasons. I moved on several times and eventually married a dominant after living a D/s relationship with him for 18 months before our wedding. We had a child together. It was during the course of my pregnancy that i began to get disillusioned about our relationship and D/s in general. I chalked it up to hormones and figured everything would return to normal once I had the baby. Ironically, it didn't. It only got worse. Where I was able to "ignore" his poor decisions before I was not able to ignore them now. I was no longer able to accept, "because I said so," as a valid reason for ANYTHING...much less as a reason for him going back on the initial premise of our relationship in the first place. The more I sat and thought about it, the more I realized that not only didn't I want him anymore, but that I didn't want a D/s relationship anymore. I didn't respect him as a dominant, and at that point I didn't respect him as a man. We are now in the process of getting divorced. As if I wasn't sure enough of my decision, about six months ago I entered into a D/s relationship with my best friend of seven years. I figured it might be different with a woman. Well, beyond the fact that she is an amazingly talented top, it was more of the same shit that just makes me stop and go..."you must be fucking kidding...." That relationship blew up spectacularly...in part because at that point I was trying to push myself to be something (submissive) that I am not.

I guess what it boils down to after that long ramble is trust. I do not trust anyone on this Earth enough to hold any kind of power over me. I think most doms are full of shit. I think most are big babies that want a "mommy," or someone to take care of them while they do/get whatever they want. I feel most are manipulators, and self-serving to the extreme. None of these are qualities I want in my life.

Beat me, Fuck me, Carve pretty designs in me with sharp and pointies...that's all cool. Try to act like Grand Poobah otherwise, and I will quickly tell you to go fuck yourself...and show you the door.

 

[BiBunny]

Mostly, the thing that stops me is that I'm convinced there's no such thing as a healthy D/s relationship for me.

 

[midwestyankee]

Mostly, the thing that stops me is that I'm convinced there's no such thing as a healthy D/s relationship for me.

Maybe you're simply one of the world's most awesome bottoms.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm not "in awe of people who can do this." I just think they're wired differently than I am.

"Every fiber of my being rejects the mere thought of it." Exactly.


Maybe your s-type urges are inherently person-specific, or maybe the urges themselves have just moved on. Either way, don't beat yourself up.

You beat me to this. No need for awe. Some people want this in their lives and some don't.

I have more to say but I'm too tired. Is it really wiring, or is it a question of how we behave when we're not motivated by sex.

I can relate to the quote from ecasticsub above. Doms will do what doms will do. I do find a lot of happiness in releasing to that. So maybe it is wiring.

Damn it, I said I have to go to bed!

 

[marieR19]

Beat me, Fuck me, Carve pretty designs in me with sharp and pointies...that's all cool. Try to act like Grand Poobah otherwise, and I will quickly tell you to go fuck yourself...and show you the door.

See, this is pretty much where I am right now, and it confuses the heck out of me because I finally thought I *knew* who I was, yunno? I could finally put labels on it. Submissive. Masochist. I like labels, honestly, because they make things clearer for me.

But I balk at anyone really acting like they know everything, and I should do things without questioning... Even in my last relationship, with a woman I loved and trusted, it just frustrated me and annoyed me.

I like the kink, the pain, etc. But actual submission... possibly only on fantasies or very specific situations.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Be a bottom! Be a top! MAYBE-- just MAYBE you meet someone you want to own or be owned by, but what the fuck. It shouldn't be where you start. You don't go marrying people before you date them.

oh, wait-- maybe you do.

 

[switchbitch]

Be a bottom! Be a top! MAYBE-- just MAYBE you meet someone you want to own or be owned by, but what the fuck. It shouldn't be where you start. You don't go marrying people before you date them.

oh, wait-- maybe you do.

Hear!Hear! Bloody well said Stella.
It isn't the fact that someone is a dominant that makes them a fuck, it's just that some fucks like to think they are dominant,the two states have nothing to do with each other.
some people are capable of dominating merely where sex is concerned,and some are naturally and capably dominant in all of their life. The same thing can be said for submissives, just because you can be an awesome sexual submissive it does not mean that you have to be submissive in all areas of your life even though you may crave that control. We are all different and learning about each others wants and desires is a whole new ball game with each and every person that you meet classing everyone under one umbrella e.g. what a good dominant should be... or what a good submissive should be..., just doesn't seem realistic to me.

 

[KoPilot]

But I balk at anyone really acting like they know everything, and I should do things without questioning...

(Is it really that common for a pyl to truly believe that their PYL is infallible and all-knowing?)

Always had trouble submitting to authority that demanded respect for simply being "authority"... i.e. teachers. If I felt that I was being disrespected for simply being a student, then I became problematic. But if teachers/professors were willing to keep an open dialogue with us about the curriculum and subject at hand, that showed me that they respected us enough to acknowledge our intelligence, and even entertain the possibility that they might be wrong on something. That's the sort of two-way street I need.

And fortunately, it's what I've got! If he has a preference when it comes to something, I'll usually go with it unless I see that it's seriously flawed... like maybe wanting a super triple chocolate cake with a side of lard for dessert every night. (Yes, I consider making him eat healthily as part of my duty as a partner and s-type.) Fortunately, he's not very picky and I basically get to be left to my own devices about many a thing. And for some things, it's a gentle nudge. Like when I spent the month with him earlier this summer, I wound up making some of his lunches in the morning, even though it required I wake up early and usually go back to sleep when I was done. He'd wake me up to do it, but if I happened to fall back to sleep instead, it was no biggie.

Sometimes I think I crave a 24/7 arrangement, which scares me a little, but most of the time I don't, and am happy with our level of non-bedroom D/s. It usually just involves me deferring to his stated preferences and plans, or expressing it through body language (he very much has the presence of a full time D, funnily enough), and enjoying his bullying and ribbing. He enjoys my challenging his status quo and opinions (sometimes changing them), which is something I cannot even begin to conceive of not being allowed to do. If he told me that 2 and 2 was 5--yes, deliberate 1984 reference--and it was assumed that I was to accept that as truth simply because he was the PYL, I'd laugh and go tell him to fuck himself. Surely no one has demanded something so ludicrous of their partner, but I'm sure someone's come close. And outside of a mindfuck scene, the idea gives me the heebie-geebies.

 

[Licia]

My entire life was conditioning for the submissive lifestyle: small town mentality, and people loved taking advantage of me because I am an empathetic individual. They pegged me for weak and vulnerable because I /emote in real time.

Wrong. Very, very wrong.

Even as a child I knew that what I was being taught was error: an ember smoldered inside that no amount of bullying would ever squelch, and due to that...I gained pleasure out of standing up for myself, and particularly toward men who would even hint at brutalizing me. I knew that while I may indeed be physically weaker than a guy, the brain did not suffer the same handicap. The brain/spirit is where REAL strength begins, not the other way around...

*chuckles*

So I married a guy who was an alcoholic (I subconsciously recognized him as a male submissive. I realize that now, but at the time, what I saw was a bit of old world class.), and I loved him nearly to death. Culture conflicted with reality, and I did my fucking best to be submissive. I could not; however, fully supress my dominant tendencies. It was not until I threw off my own shackles about tradition that our marriage improved. Fourteen years have passed, and the last almost seven years, he's spent sober. Finally accepting and embracing my feminism has brought us to the point in our relationship where we should've began. WE are finally experiencing what we both want out of our marriage, and it's only because I'm reclaiming my sense of power. I feel like I've been given a most precious treasure for some unknown reason, and I will dig my claws into that happy and never let go!

 

[Chiara_searches]

I don't know if I just got really lucky, but late last year I got advice from an author who lives in an owner/submissive relationship (he is the owner). His advice was to never submit to a man that was not of equal moral, ethical and spiritual stature to me. His Beloved is equal to him in all planes of their relationship except sex. They can be working side by side and through a look or a word, he'll tip the plane into an unequal sexual place.

Granted, I do understand that submission in this manner is not for everyone and we all have to write our own outline for what is right for us.

I made the decision to explore the mental construct of submission through an online relationship. That man did not have an equal ethical standing to me and in hindsight, I think I allowed that because I always knew an online thing was temporary.

Just this morning, I was thinking about some sexual control my boyfriend is exerting and questioning how he knew I wanted him to exert that control. We have not moved to a true PYL/pyl relationship in the sense most of you have experienced; but we've talked about some of these things. In thinking this morning, I analyzed what kind of person he is and he actually is morally and ethically equal to me. We only differ minutely on the spiritual thing (he's atheist, I'm a spiritual agnostic).

Knowing who and how he is as a person builds the kind of trust I need to give him control. And I analyze things, sometimes over analyzing. So I hope I can be fully aware if ever he makes a poor decision. I excused things from my ex-husband for long enough, and forgave things about the online relationship, that I'm sort of sick and tired of over-looking things. I feel pretty confident I will call him out and not just accept "because I said so." I have a brain and am encouraged to use it. It's actually a disservice to us both if he's not called out on b.s. when necessary.

 

[Licia]

(Is it really that common for a pyl to truly believe that their PYL is infallible and all-knowing?)...

*shrugs* Who knows. But the fall does start from heaven. I've had to admit after an apology that neither am I perfect or a saint. I'm a human being with flaws.

Conversely, if the dominant isn't big enough to admit when they're wrong, they're actually small.

 

[BiBunny]

For me, it's not about "Oh, just be a bottom." I've done that before, and I can do it again. It's not a huge deal to me. What it comes down to for me is denying an integral aspect of my personality because I've come to a point in my life where D/s is no longer healthy. D/s with anyone.

I hesitate to go into too much detail, honestly.

 

[Stella_Omega]

For me, it's not about "Oh, just be a bottom." I've done that before, and I can do it again. It's not a huge deal to me. What it comes down to for me is denying an integral aspect of my personality because I've come to a point in my life where D/s is no longer healthy. D/s with anyone.

I hesitate to go into too much detail, honestly.

I totally hear you on that.But you're wunnathem speshul cases.

Most people need to test the sexual compatibility waters before they go diving into the emotional deep end. Our society doesn't encourage that kind of mindfulness.

 

[curvacious]

It's actually a disservice to us both if he's not called out on b.s. when necessary.

Thank you. Well said.

I've never wanted to submit to SO outside of the sexual aspect of our life. I look at some of things he's done and think "no way could i trust him with 'X'" (such as control of finances).

 

[BiBunny]

I totally hear you on that.But you're wunnathem speshul cases.

Most people need to test the sexual compatibility waters before they go diving into the emotional deep end. Our society doesn't encourage that kind of mindfulness.

I'm totally not trying to play the special snowflake card.

 

[Licia]

I hesitate to go into too much detail, honestly.

My filter still controls how I kick my own doors down. Some of the skeletons have to be dust by now.

Most people need to test the sexual compatibility waters before they go diving into the emotional deep end. Our society doesn't encourage that kind of mindfulness.

*brandishes a double-edged sword* 'Tis either a weapon, a tool, or self-inflicted torture. *drops item* Steel clatters against the floor.

Unfortunately, that sort of responsibility lies solely on the shoulders of the person in question, and they get to muddle through culture, conditioning, and life experience in order to figure out who they really are.

 

[graceanne]

Beloved

Am I the only one who was kinda squicked by this?

That said, why is it a big deal if you are or aren't? It's not like you signed a contract promising to be xyz for your entire life. People change, they grow, they develop, they sometimes become totally different people from who they were at 18 (or other ages). This is normal and healthy!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Unfortunately, that sort of responsibility lies solely on the shoulders of the person in question, and they get to muddle through culture, conditioning, and life experience in order to figure out who they really are.

Eh, so folk can accept my input or not as they choose. Because I am now part of their life experience and culture, by virtue of putting in my oar.

*picks up the poor, discarded sword, straightens the bent blade and hands it back*

Seems like it's out of temper there, Miss. Over-enthusiastic sharpening can do that...

 

[Chiara_searches]

Am I the only one who was kinda squicked by this?

Frankly, I got squicked by typing it, but not for the scary reasons y'all might have on this board. I hope I didn't trigger too awful of memories for anyone.

I get squicked by it because I disagree with slaughtering the English language to fit BDSM references. It's his style when he speaks of her, so I respected that and copied it. It's about the only thing I completely disagree with him on; but it's not my label to define.

 

[Homburg]

Been a pushy jerk. Been a dominant. Excuse me, Dominant. Got to the point where it wasn't my thing, went back to fucking like a normal person. Found the dominant thing again (no capital D this time, didn't care). Got pretty heavy into the scene, then realized that all the toys and trappings aren't my thing. Backed off. Still dominant, but not messing about with all the toys and such.

Throughout all of this, I stilled remained. Still me. Probably because how I fuck does not define the entirety of me.

Tastes change. You should still remain even if you find that you like tea over coffee.

 

[CutieMouse]

Been a pushy jerk. Been a dominant. Excuse me, Dominant. Got to the point where it wasn't my thing, went back to fucking like a normal person. Found the dominant thing again (no capital D this time, didn't care). Got pretty heavy into the scene, then realized that all the toys and trappings aren't my thing. Backed off. Still dominant, but not messing about with all the toys and such.

Throughout all of this, I stilled remained. Still me. Probably because how I fuck does not define the entirety of me.

Tastes change. You should still remain even if you find that you like tea over coffee.

Holy Hanna... it's Homburg!

I've been following the thread, and my journey is kinda like what you just described. 99.9% of people might argue that I'm not submissive anymore... hell even, The Men™ just shake their heads over the idea of it all. (They care much more that I'm sweet and interesting; the [non-typical] "submissive" stuff is gravy.... yes, Homburg; the shy/picky thing eventually resulted in not one, but two men in my life. LOL)

In a weird sort of way, taking a hard right [left?] from my former personal stance on my own idea of what submission "is", deepened it. Five years ago, I'd have spent yesterday cleaning J's house even if it wasn't in my best interest to do so at the time. Instead I asked if we could just sit in the garden and talk about beekeeping, and the latest developments in physics, and cooking, and work, and when we were all talked out go snuggle and have hot monkey sex for a few hours [before we each had to go back to life]? I gave us what we needed/he [we] enjoyed our time together... which is as close to defining "D/s" as I get these days.

 

[Homburg]

Holy Hanna... it's Homburg!

I've been following the thread, and my journey is kinda like what you just described. 99.9% of people might argue that I'm not submissive anymore... hell even, The Men™ just shake their heads over the idea of it all. (They care much more that I'm sweet and interesting; the [non-typical] "submissive" stuff is gravy.... yes, Homburg; the shy/picky thing eventually resulted in not one, but two men in my life. LOL)

In a weird sort of way, taking a hard right [left?] from my former personal stance on my own idea of what submission "is", deepened it. Five years ago, I'd have spent yesterday cleaning J's house even if it wasn't in my best interest to do so at the time. Instead I asked if we could just sit in the garden and talk about beekeeping, and the latest developments in physics, and cooking, and work, and when we were all talked out go snuggle and have hot monkey sex for a few hours [before we each had to go back to life]? I gave us what we needed/he [we] enjoyed our time together... which is as close to defining "D/s" as I get these days.

Bravo. On all of that. Makes me happy, and I can use it tonight.

Now I'm going to go back to trying desperately to not ram something heavy and sharp through the display of the recalcitrant laptop that I'm failing to make my living on due to an apparently corrupt database.

Regardless, that sounds like a good time. And, honestly, fuck all the hoopla, relationships are about enjoying time with the person/s you're with. Everything else is gravy, period. Some days I think that the pseudo-mainstreaming of kink brought on by the internet may well be one of the worst things to happen to kinky people worldwide. Suddenly they feel the need to keep up with the Leather-Joneses, and everybody knows you can't keep up with that cat with the hyphenated last name. It just ain't gonna happen.