How Embarrassing!

[YoungMaster87]

Two weeks ago, I was fortunate enough to sleep with only my second 'mature' lady. We ended up back at her place, where photos of her fully-grown kids were displayed all around her bedroom, not that I cared much(She's divorced). However, I may have taken our 'fling' a little more to the BDSM side, as I ended up tying her hands, restraining her, calling her a few names, as well spanking her mildly. At the time she seemed to be enjoying it, well, at least her body was, however, my next message from her stated that she was embarrassed, that she felt humliated, and that it was all a big mistake..

Now, do you think a reasonable woman would have enjoyed it? Or should I have spoken to her about it before?

 

[CutieMouse]

A kinky woman may have enjoyed it; I've no idea how a "reasonable" woman would have behaved.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

Well, I'm going to tell you right off that I don't really think any blame sits on you. I think it's an individuals responsibility to speak up and let it be known when someone is doing something they don't like. Otherwise, how are you to know she doesn't like it?

I'm not sure what you mean by a "reasonable" woman though. I don't think reason has much to do with sexual preferences.

 

[Miles Long]

I don't know if I've ever met a "reasonable" woman before. But then again I'm not "reasonable" myself...

 

[HottieMama]

I personally think any kink related activities should be discussed before your clothes come off. I'm kinky as hell, and even I do not like to be surprised with shit like that...

 

[FurryFury]

Agreed.

I personally think any kink related activities should be discussed before your clothes come off. I'm kinky as hell, and even I do not like to be surprised with shit like that...

 

[roomfor1more]

Text messages are not always precise as they appear and are easy to take out of context. Plus message boards are not always to best format to give all of the needed information to the readers. Therefore, is it possible that the text message referred to your relationship with her and not the light BDSM? By this I mean, could she feel guilty that she allowed herself to have that type of experience and maybe feel that this type of experience is reserved for younger women? Maybe it is worth talking to her about it?

 

[Stella_Omega]

There's a word you need to learn, kid.

Consensual

Don't be calling yourself a Master, you aren't one.

For fuck's sake.

 

[marieR19]

There's a word you need to learn, kid.

Consensual

Don't be calling yourself a Master, you aren't one.

For fuck's sake.

COMPLETELY agree!

The majority of women, in my experience, are not into kinky stuff, or only to a very light extent with someone they really trust. Even if the person *is* kinky, which it doesn't sound like you knew one way or the other, COMMUNICATION is key.

I would *never* hit someone without first making sure they are actually into that sort of thing. Spanking, tying up, AND name-calling, without consent? That's dangerous and disrespectful and can get you in a WHOLE lot of trouble with the law if you keep that up.

It doesn't sound like you are much a "Master" so much as just another guy looking to do things how he wants with no respect for what the other party wants. Horrible.

edit: Also, "her body liked it" is NEVER AN EXCUSE. That's the excuse rapists use. Bodies can respond in a sexual way to horrible upsetting situations, and most people cannot control that. What her body was doing was absolutely NO indication that SHE liked it.

 

[Kurokami]

See, this puts me in sort of an awkward position...

I agree with Stella and marie, rape is horrible, consent is absolutely required and I can't believe I even have to qualify this. But we also can't automatically paint this guy as a rapist, or asshole or whatever, marie. Communication is important, and it goes both ways. If either party is uncomfortable with what's going on, they need to speak up. They really, really do.

Once again, not advocating just doing whatever you want, and I'm perfectly aware that the absence of a no is not a yes. I'm just saying that if the woman disliked what was going on it's as much her responsibility to make that known as it was his.

But yes, the OP should have discussed things beforehand and made sure his partner in this was onboard. And I don't think that it's entirely healthy to be asking whether any 'reasonable' woman would have enjoyed the experience; it's pretty clear that this specific woman did not, and that is the only thing that matters.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

See, this puts me in sort of an awkward position...

I agree with Stella and marie, rape is horrible, consent is absolutely required and I can't believe I even have to qualify this. But we also can't automatically paint this guy as a rapist, or asshole or whatever, marie. Communication is important, and it goes both ways. If either party is uncomfortable with what's going on, they need to speak up. They really, really do.

Once again, not advocating just doing whatever you want, and I'm perfectly aware that the absence of a no is not a yes. I'm just saying that if the woman disliked what was going on it's as much her responsibility to make that known as it was his.

But yes, the OP should have discussed things beforehand and made sure his partner in this was onboard. And I don't think that it's entirely healthy to be asking whether any 'reasonable' woman would have enjoyed the experience; it's pretty clear that this specific woman did not, and that is the only thing that matters.

I pretty much agree with this.

 

[marieR19]

But yes, the OP should have discussed things beforehand and made sure his partner in this was onboard. And I don't think that it's entirely healthy to be asking whether any 'reasonable' woman would have enjoyed the experience; it's pretty clear that this specific woman did not, and that is the only thing that matters.

Maybe that's what bothers me so much about this whole thing. Coming in here and saying this stuff, explaining it in a way that makes it fairly clear he didn't ask beforehand, and then having the nerve to ask if a "reasonable" woman would have reacted that way. It really rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Kurokami]

Maybe that's what bothers me so much about this whole thing. Coming in here and saying this stuff, explaining it in a way that makes it fairly clear he didn't ask beforehand, and then having the nerve to ask if a "reasonable" woman would have reacted that way. It really rubs me the wrong way.

Yeah, asking that question does give off a weird vibe, doesn't it? Like clearly this specific woman is being unreasonable for disliking or having a negative reaction to such skilled lovin'. And that's completely ignoring the fact that it's completely the wrong question to ask given that he knows she was having a negative reaction. And that it was the first question he asked, and "should I have asked?" came second. Reading back over the OP, it's not getting any better to me.

 

[Stella_Omega]

yes she should have said something. I can think of a hundred reasons why a woman might not say anything, most of them very stupid in the final instance--but there you are.

No means no, we've all finally learned that. But YES means yes. Not hearing the word "no" does NOT mean you've heard a "yes."

This is really hard thing to learn. We've eroticised lack of consent. Learn to eroticise specific and enthusiastic consent, and yanno... stay out of jail.

And kid-- you are NOT a "master."

 

[seela]

I agree with Kurokami and BBE88. I find it really tedious to imagine a world, where everything has to be negotiated, before trying it. Personally, I think it can be a good way to get things going to try something small and see how the other person reacts. It wasn't lifethreatening or anything, and if she didn't like it, I really think she should have said so during the act, not afterwards. It's called personal responsibility in my world.

Consent is a big, important thing, absolutely. But does consent always have to be verbal to be valid? You can also say yes, when deep down you really feel no, thus rendering the verbalized consent void.

And kid-- you are NOT a "master."

A lot of people, I'd say most people, don't use the term master in the same Old Guard sense as you do, Stella. Most people don't seem to care for lables as much.

 

[BiBunny]

Yeah, asking that question does give off a weird vibe, doesn't it? Like clearly this specific woman is being unreasonable for disliking or having a negative reaction to such skilled lovin'. And that's completely ignoring the fact that it's completely the wrong question to ask given that he knows she was having a negative reaction. And that it was the first question he asked, and "should I have asked?" came second. Reading back over the OP, it's not getting any better to me.

I think we were expected to give an "Of COURSE you were in the right. What kind of prude was she if she wasn't into that?" kind of response. But I could be wrong. It happens once in a blue moon.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This is what I love about this forum, intelligent disagreement!

I dunno, Seela, it's one of those complicated things. And too many people don't do well with complications, as we see here.

It could easily be that she totally gave her consent, as far as she -- and he-- understood it to be, and then had a reaction afterwards.

Me, I wouldn't do the name calling part, on a first date with an older woman. Spanking, sure. Hair pulling hell yeah. Calling her names on top of everything else that she's not used to? Mmmm... maybe too much of a good thing. Let her come to that on the second or third date, yanno.

A lot of people, I'd say most people, don't use the term master in the same Old Guard sense as you do, Stella. Most people don't seem to care for lables as much.

I know-- I feel like the Old Sarge or something, except I wouldn't label myself that incorrectly
But you know what? I don't care if "most people" don't care at the moment. They will, eventually. Labels are really useful, at least-- the ones we give ourselves.

 

[marieR19]

I agree with Kurokami and BBE88. I find it really tedious to imagine a world, where everything has to be negotiated, before trying it. Personally, I think it can be a good way to get things going to try something small and see how the other person reacts. It wasn't lifethreatening or anything, and if she didn't like it, I really think she should have said so during the act, not afterwards. It's called personal responsibility in my world.

Consent is a big, important thing, absolutely. But does consent always have to be verbal to be valid? You can also say yes, when deep down you really feel no, thus rendering the verbalized consent void.

I get what you are saying, but I think there are huge red flags in every single sentence in the OP. I wouldn't have such a problem if this was someone the OP *knows*, who has shown a bit of a kinky side, and maybe he decided to surprise her without actually talking things through first. That would be completely different.

But someone that you don't know, first time together (at least that's what it sounds like from the OP), you have no idea how straight-laced they are about sex, and you pull THAT? Spanking, name-calling, tying up, knowing *nothing* about their preferences? That's very, very different then not getting verbal consent with someone you've been with before and actually know.

And personal responsibility is all well and good, but the "Dom" is supposed to be the one responsible when all is said and done. A "real" Dom would never jump into something like that without even knowing if the person *is* a sub/kinky/whatever.

And I don't know about you guys, but I have issues with sex. I freely admit that. If I was having sex with someone for the FIRST TIME and they started doing something I totally didn't want, there would be no way in hell I could verbally say no. I would be too busy fighting a panic attack. And yes, it's very possible for my body to be saying "yes" WHILE I'm having a panic attack, I've learned that the hard way.

 

[Kurokami]

There are a few points of concern in the original post, agreed. And yes, without the advantage of a prior relationship the OP really should have sat down and had a discussion if he was planning anything like this, but ultimately there's only two ways for human beings to communicate consent; physically or verbally. And as we've established, the body can sometimes be unreliable here. And really, adults are supposed to be able to voice their opinions fairly easily. Maybe that's reckless optimism on my part, though.

Consent is a tricky thing; it's definitely up to both parties to obtain it before the act, but at the same time, consent can be rescinded at any time during the act, too. That's important: one yes doesn't give the other party carte blanche to do whatever they like. When my wife and I play, I rely on her to communicate to me, clearly and concisely, exactly where the line is and when I'm close to crossing it. And yes, we've been going at it for a number of years, but even with a newbie who might not be kinky, like and dislike are binary states, broadly speaking. You can tell when you don't like what's being done to you.

It's so frustrating, making this point; obviously there're specifics in your case, marie, that make this consent issue a little more fuzzy, and there certainly isn't enough specific information to relate what I'm saying to the OP, either. In fact, I'm not even sure I'd want to advocate this issue for him, because there are a lot of troublesome phrases in his OP that make me wonder if, well, something actually is up. Really, this post of mine just exists in a vacuum, but it's still a point I'd like to make: people really do need to be aware of their own responsibilities in situations like this.

 

[seela]

And personal responsibility is all well and good, but the "Dom" is supposed to be the one responsible when all is said and done. A "real" Dom would never jump into something like that without even knowing if the person *is* a sub/kinky/whatever.

This is the key here for me, though. I don't believe, that the PYL is supposed to be the one responsible for everything, be it during a scene or in a 24/7 TPE type relationship. Both parties in the relationship, or sex act, or whatever, are equally responsible, in my opinion.

What's described in the OP is not the smartest thing to do, I don't disagree with you or anyone else on that. Especially the name calling bit sounds iffy to me. But I also don't get the impression from the OP like there definitely wasn't consent there. She felt ashamed about it afterwards, but it doesn't automatically mean she didn't enjoy it when it happened. But as a good rule of thumb: "When in doubt, don't."

That's just my opinion, though, and as I'm pretty solid about my sexuality and I've always felt fine talking about it (it's a different matter altogether if I actually feel the need to talk about it), I probably am overlooking some aspects.

But that's the beauty of message boards, though. Many opinions and many points of view!

 

[BiBunny]

Changed my mind.

 

[Lilac_Sky]

Two weeks ago, I was fortunate enough to sleep with only my second 'mature' lady. We ended up back at her place, where photos of her fully-grown kids were displayed all around her bedroom, not that I cared much(She's divorced). However, I may have taken our 'fling' a little more to the BDSM side, as I ended up tying her hands, restraining her, calling her a few names, as well spanking her mildly.

I am very open to kinky sex (and sex in general ) but if this was the first time you had sex with her (it sounds like it was) and you and she hadn't discussed ventures into BDSM, then I think it was premature to take your "fling" in that direction. You don't know her well enough to know what she likes, what turns her on, how she reacts to things, what limits or issues she might be carrying.

At the time she seemed to be enjoying it, well, at least her body was, however, my next message from her stated that she was embarrassed, that she felt humliated, and that it was all a big mistake..

This is a bit unclear .... "my next message" ... when/how did you get that "next message"? (at first I read it to mean ... a text the next day ... but written as one sentence, I am wondering if that "message" was given at the time of the encounter)

Now, do you think a reasonable woman would have enjoyed it? Or should I have spoken to her about it before?

Who gets to define "reasonable"? My closest friends would not have enjoyed it. I love when my Mistress does things like that to me (but we have been together for a while and have an established relationship and know each other's needs and wants). But I would not be comfortable with someone I hardly knew tying me up and calling me names.

Trust is very important for me and it doesn't sound like your "mature" lady had an opportunity to build that trust in you to then be comfortable in being restrained and humiliated.

I do believe strongly in personal responsibility for all parties involved. But it is hard to know where that broke down with the limited information that has been given.

 

[koalakutie]

.....

 

[LisbethElliot]

Two weeks ago, I was fortunate enough to sleep with only my second 'mature' lady. We ended up back at her place, where photos of her fully-grown kids were displayed all around her bedroom, not that I cared much(She's divorced). However, I may have taken our 'fling' a little more to the BDSM side, as I ended up tying her hands, restraining her, calling her a few names, as well spanking her mildly. At the time she seemed to be enjoying it, well, at least her body was, however, my next message from her stated that she was embarrassed, that she felt humliated, and that it was all a big mistake..

Now, do you think a reasonable woman would have enjoyed it? Or should I have spoken to her about it before?

As someone who is very, very new to BDSM I have to say that I find this entire post disturbing. I think the last sentence is key..."Or should I have spoken to her about it before?" ABSOLUTELY you should have spoken to her about it before! This was a first date?! There is a whole world of people out there who know nothing about BDSM. I know...I was one of them not so very long ago. Personally, I think you should be grateful you haven't found yourself arrested for rape. It's very possible that this woman is so confused right now that she's not sure exactly what happened to her.

I've read everyone's comments and there are some very good points about personal responsibility. But to me there is a big, huge, red flag here. He says she "seemed to be enjoying it," but then he qualifies it and says, "well, at least her body was." What does that mean? It sounds to me dangerously like she "said" no, but since "at least her body" was enjoying it, he decided she didn't "mean" no. Did he give her a safe word? I'm thinking no, since he didn't talk to her about it first. The more I come back and reread this, the more it bothers me.

 

[HottieMama]

there is a big, huge, red flag here. He says she "seemed to be enjoying it," but then he qualifies it and says, "well, at least her body was." What does that mean? It sounds to me dangerously like she "said" no, but since "at least her body" was enjoying it, he decided she didn't "mean" no. Did he give her a safe word? I'm thinking no, since he didn't talk to her about it first. The more I come back and reread this, the more it bothers me.

I agree with this, and it is perhaps what I find most disturbing...