Minimum Wage & Union Wages: You Pay for them...

[Holly Delight]

Like, for example, how to make change! How to clean toilets!

How about encouraging unions to teach their membership through apprenticeship. You know, the way craftsmen have been trained for thousands of years. Real skills that will help America get out of this hole.

YES !!!

If you got what you paid for with a union worker, I wouldn't mind. Lately that has not been the case.

When the union electrician shows up to do a small bit of wiring in our building, I expect it to be done to the general contractor's plan and to code. If there is a question concerning the plan, resolve it and get the job done. No short cuts, no excuses. Get it done in the time allotted. If I'm paying a premium, I expect premium work.

If the union will not police its own, then we'll have to find trained non-union workers willing to do the job - and who have pride in what they do. Who knows, they may even cost less.

 

[Joeybagadonuts]

YES !!!

If you got what you paid for with a union worker, I wouldn't mind. Lately that has not been the case.

When the union electrician shows up to do a small bit of wiring in our building, I expect it to be done to the general contractor's plan and to code. If there is a question concerning the plan, resolve it and get the job done. No short cuts, no excuses. Get it done in the time allotted. If I'm paying a premium, I expect premium work.

If the union will not police its own, then we'll have to find trained non-union workers willing to do the job - and who have pride in what they do. Who knows, they may even cost less.

What assurance should those union workers get from investment bankers who control their pension fund?

Do you support that same strict adherence to quality and accountability from Wall St.?

Does it also concern you that your tax dollars went to private corporations like Halliburton in sweetherat deals?

 

[bronzeage]

YES !!!

If you got what you paid for with a union worker, I wouldn't mind. Lately that has not been the case.

When the union electrician shows up to do a small bit of wiring in our building, I expect it to be done to the general contractor's plan and to code. If there is a question concerning the plan, resolve it and get the job done. No short cuts, no excuses. Get it done in the time allotted. If I'm paying a premium, I expect premium work.

If the union will not police its own, then we'll have to find trained non-union workers willing to do the job - and who have pride in what they do. Who knows, they may even cost less.

Trained non-union workers? Who provides this training and who pays for it?

Why would a qualified person work for less money to do the same job?

 

[mercury14]

The 'usual suspects' will demand facts and figures and documentations. Nope, you actually have to think this one through and understand the concept.

Amicus Veritas

People that think use facts, figures, and documentation.

 

[mercury14]

Independently and as a theoretical exercise (because I just stated above that I'm not sure that costs would actually go down much)...as for the questions about costs and the prices of goods...if suddenly the costs for an industry were reduced, would the prices be reduced also? If costs go down suddenly (taxes reduced or labor costs or raw materials as examples) then all the firms that compete in that segment would try to hold onto the prices they were charging...but sooner or later, one of them would sacrifice margin for greater volume (market share). They'd say, instead of selling 100,000 units for $10 each, if I had a sale and changed the price to $8 each, I might sell 150,000 units and I'd make less on each unit sold, but by selling 50,000 more, I'd make more money in the end. They'd probably start out with a "sale" and see if it did the trick. Of course, one of the other providers of that thing would say "Look, Joe is having a sale, I'd better have one too"...and they'd go into a competitive period until the market reacquired "equilibrium" at a price that better reflects the value of the good and the costs that went into it....so...the answer is....yes, the prices would come down.

This is patently incorrect. Prices are set by what the customer is willing to pay. Look at industries that have large profit margins on their products. Gap charges $28 for a shirt made in Malaysia for a tiny fraction of that cost. That is because customers are willing to pay $28. It doesn't matter that the shirt costs $2 to produce or that new technology cuts costs down to $1.75. That shirt will cost $28 regardless.

Your equilibrium effect just doesn't pass the reality test.

 

[stephen55]

People that think use facts, figures, and documentation.

The 'usual suspects' will demand facts and figures and documentations. Nope

Now I know who ami refers to as "usual subjects".

Ami's derogatory reference is for those who think.

 

[Holly Delight]

Trained non-union workers? Who provides this training and who pays for it?

Why would a qualified person work for less money to do the same job?

You tell me.

Yes, there are trained non-union workers. A lot of them learn via OJT, just like their supposed union brethren. They learn the code on their own too.

If they will do the same quality of work, why do I have to hire union if they cannot promise me someone to do the work to standard? They are cheating me.

 

[mercury14]

~~~

Ya, know, 41 Mercury, the frightening and sickening thing about the dialetic you spout is that you actually believe it.

Arbitrary wage levels and when the government is stupid enough to try it, price controls, create inflation and poverty, unemployment and misery. All the good intentions of controlling the market place, call it by whatever name you wish, always end up in disrupting the flow of life and the ability of the average citizen to suport himself.

Wealth is not a static quantity like gold in the ground or in the bank, wealth is created and is dynamic and directly related to the effort of the individual. There is no fine complex formula needed to realize a productive and happy society, just the necessity to get you do-gooders, manipulators and parasites out of the picture so that free men can pursue their own happiness.

Amicus Veritas

So you're saying that abolishing the minimum wage, which would be certain to decrease wages to the working poor, would not spread poverty? Even when crap minimum wage jobs already mean an impoverished lifestyle?

 

[Saint Peter]

Trained non-union workers? Who provides this training and who pays for it?

Why would a qualified person work for less money to do the same job?

That varies trade to trade. Holly mentioned electricians. All electricians, at least in Colorado, go through an apprenticeship. Other trades, like for example sheet metal workers, do not require apprenticeship. Hire a non union company to do the job and you might be gambling with the end product.

Hire a union company and you will get structure. Sure there will be apprentices on the job, but those people are under direction from journeymen who generally know their shit.

 

[Holly Delight]

That varies trade to trade. Holly mentioned electricians. All electricians, at least in Colorado, go through an apprenticeship. Other trades, like for example sheet metal workers, do not require apprenticeship. Hire a non union company to do the job and you might be gambling with the end product.

Hire a union company and you will get structure. Sure there will be apprentices on the job, but those people are under direction from journeymen who generally know their shit.

There is a point where I could do the job myself. If the inspector signs off on it, do they really care who did the work? My non-union worker may do a better job than the union guy. The inspector should not care who did it, just what was done.

 

[Saint Peter]

There is a point where I could do the job myself. If the inspector signs off on it, do they really care who did the work? My non-union worker may do a better job than the union guy. The inspector should not care who did it, just what was done.

The inspector could care less about union membership. If the work is up to code and done by a properly trained person, the job will get the magic initials in the proper box.

You brought up electrical work. That trade has guidelines that many trades do not. It is a bad idea to have a hack working on your electrical system. The rules and regs are in place to protect you.

Does your sheet metal worker understand when to cross brake the duct so it does not rattle? It only matters to the person with the desk under the duct that flexes when the air comes on and off. One small example of a million ways that your job can be influenced by the training the workers involved.

 

[koalabear]

Trained non-union workers? Who provides this training and who pays for it?

Why would a qualified person work for less money to do the same job?

ABC trains non-union electricians. Then you have union trained that go non-union to work.

 

[Holly Delight]

The inspector could care less about union membership...

BINGO !

 

[RightField]

This is patently incorrect. Prices are set by what the customer is willing to pay. Look at industries that have large profit margins on their products. Gap charges $28 for a shirt made in Malaysia for a tiny fraction of that cost. That is because customers are willing to pay $28. It doesn't matter that the shirt costs $2 to produce or that new technology cuts costs down to $1.75. That shirt will cost $28 regardless.

Your equilibrium effect just doesn't pass the reality test.

I'm sure there's a lot of people rushing to be in those businesses where cost is $1.75 and they sell a shirt for $28 and keep everything in between for profit.

 

[warrior queen]

I'm sure there's a lot of people rushing to be in those businesses where cost is $1.75 and they sell a shirt for $28 and keep everything in between for profit.

that's exactly what i had - my clothing business bought in peasant skirts from india for AUS$3.00 to 5.00.
i sold them for between $50 and $75.
and i couldn't keep up with demand!

 

[garbage can]

The federal minimum wage is $7.25 but apparently that's too much. I wonder just what the proper minimum wage should be.

What the market dictates.

 

[Holly Delight]

Not according to the article you posted. Under NCLB 99% of the students at a school could be proficient at math & language skills and the school could still receive a failing grade.

I missed your post. I actually agree with you that the teachers are not failing, but that the government is reporting that they are with NCLB statistics. This is inherently unfair.

Actually the 100% standard for math, reading and English is supposed to become effective in the 2013-14 school year. Another standard that is a joke. Punish all the schools that cannot make 100%? 99% isn't good enough? Really? NCLB helps this situation ---how? (Again, agreeing)

I support teachers and think they are closer to the pulse of how students learn - closer than the experts who think NCLB is such a fabulous idea.

My point is that NCLB is not helping the education system, but hindering. The metrics that are produced show that our system is failing, but is it really? These are just meaningless statistics for the most part. Repealing this directive will allow schools to meet THEIR goals with THEIR students, not something unattainable. Keeping it will be a waste of taxpayer dollars when they could be put to better use. I hope D of Ed has learned from this and puts NCLB in the file entitled "That was an interesting experiment that didn't work out too well."

 

[bronzeage]

You tell me.

Yes, there are trained non-union workers. A lot of them learn via OJT, just like their supposed union brethren. They learn the code on their own too.

If they will do the same quality of work, why do I have to hire union if they cannot promise me someone to do the work to standard? They are cheating me.

Who hires someone who does not pledge to do good work, union or otherwise?

How does that work?

Customer: Will all your work conform to current code?
Worker: I guess so.
Customer: What does that mean.
Worker: I never learned much about code. I just do it the way that works.

Hire who you want. In my experience, you get what you pay for.

 

[Holly Delight]

Who hires someone who does not pledge to do good work, union or otherwise?

How does that work?

Customer: Will all your work conform to current code?
Worker: I guess so.
Customer: What does that mean.
Worker: I never learned much about code. I just do it the way that works.

Hire who you want. In my experience, you get what you pay for.

The general contractor hired union workers. They screwed up the electrical installation and threw the project off schedule. They had an attitude of "what's on the plans can't possibly be what they want, so we'll install what we think you need." The inspector would not pass all of the work. They came back to correct it on their dime, but the delay they caused is still being discussed with the general contractor.

Didn't get what we paid for.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

I missed your post. I actually agree with you that the teachers are not failing, but that the government is reporting that they are with NCLB statistics. This is inherently unfair.

Actually the 100% standard for math, reading and English is supposed to become effective in the 2013-14 school year. Another standard that is a joke. Punish all the schools that cannot make 100%? 99% isn't good enough? Really? NCLB helps this situation ---how? (Again, agreeing)

I support teachers and think they are closer to the pulse of how students learn - closer than the experts who think NCLB is such a fabulous idea.

My point is that NCLB is not helping the education system, but hindering. The metrics that are produced show that our system is failing, but is it really? These are just meaningless statistics for the most part. Repealing this directive will allow schools to meet THEIR goals with THEIR students, not something unattainable. Keeping it will be a waste of taxpayer dollars when they could be put to better use. I hope D of Ed has learned from this and puts NCLB in the file entitled "That was an interesting experiment that didn't work out too well."

I agree with you.

NCLB was designed to show that schools were failing, whether they were really failing or not.

I'm not too sure NCLB is the brainchild of the Dept. of Ed. I think as you pointed out that anyone with common sense can see that the goals aren't attainable. That means it must have been devised by politicians.

Thankfully some change is on the way.

 

[Saint Peter]

BINGO !

My point was that even if the inspector passes the work, it still may not be the best work.

 

[bronzeage]

The general contractor hired union workers. They screwed up the electrical installation and threw the project off schedule. They had an attitude of "what's on the plans can't possibly be what they want, so we'll install what we think you need." The inspector would not pass all of the work. They came back to correct it on their dime, but the delay they caused is still being discussed with the general contractor.

Didn't get what we paid for.

Why did you pay?

 

[Saint Peter]

Why did you pay?

No doubt.

Not on the plans? I am willing to bet the electricians have a different version of this story.

 

[bronzeage]

No doubt.

Not on the plans? I am willing to bet the electricians have a different version of this story.

Most contracts have a hold back which represents the contractor's profit. When the job is finished and approved, then the contractor is paid in full.

 

[Sean]

No doubt.

Not on the plans? I am willing to bet the electricians have a different version of this story.

Sparkies are all cunts anyway. Not as bad as plumbers, but still cunts.