genderqueerness, sexual politics, BDSM status, female reticence, and shit like that

[Stella_Omega]

You got me.

I can't fathom offering my orgasmic energy, bits probed and uncovered, to a room full of people, not for love money or the betterment of the sexually educated sex positive universe. The person poking me with a vibe is the least of my hang ups in this context. I don't care if it's the hottest woman on earth, the least appealing man on earth, or me myself.

yeah,. I think a lot of people would agree with you-- many of the folk around here, for sure. I'm still interested. It feels more kinky than most anything else I might think of..

I think doms worry too much...

If we turn the story around and a sub is asked to top, or has to take on a leadership role at work, or decides to wear something that looks mean and tough one day... I don't think the sub would be thinking "oh my god, will I look not submissive enough to my dom?"

Not criticizing, just amused by this asymmetry.

Oh, there have been hundreds of sub-type people who come here worrying about this very thing!

Status is SO important. For instance, I had to re-define this activity in my head to make it fit my status needs, before I could agree to do it...

 

[welkin]

Oh, there have been hundreds of sub-type people who come here worrying about this very thing!

Sorry for generalization!
I guess it's because subs are regarded as the "weaker", "easier to exploit" one, so I've got the "If anyone says you are not a sub because you aren't doing this and this and this, just walk away" beaten into my head pretty damn well. That should be part of Dom 101 as well!

I think it does not detract from "domliness" at all to show vulnerabiliy, in fact, that to me says "I'm not afraid to let you see me this way because I can face and deal with my weaknesses." That's a lot of control!

 

[Etoile]

For the record, I am the opposite of Netzach. Although I will do pretty much anything anyway I am especially willing to do it for public education. And that's how I see all demos: it's not about the person topping, it's not about me as dolly, it's not about the activities being described (including orgasms): it's about education. There is SO LITTLE sex ed out there that if somebody wants me to help teach, I'm all for it. But then, I am the opposite of Netz in a lot of ways, so that might be expected. I just wanted to say that for me, educational demos are a whole different world and I don't consider them anything like my normal sex life.

 

[JMohegan]

You got me.

I can't fathom offering my orgasmic energy, bits probed and uncovered, to a room full of people, not for love money or the betterment of the sexually educated sex positive universe. The person poking me with a vibe is the least of my hang ups in this context. I don't care if it's the hottest woman on earth, the least appealing man on earth, or me myself.

Yeah, this isn't happening with me, either.

It's not a body exposure thing. Hell, I'd walk around in the buff all summer, if not for mosquito issues and concerns re alarming the populace.

It's a control thing with me. No way, no fucking way, is this ever happening. Gender irrelevant.

There is SO LITTLE sex ed out there that if somebody wants me to help teach, I'm all for it.

Nice av, woman! Congratulations.

Post-grad employment opportunity found here....

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-met-kass-0303-20110303,0,1596914.column

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's a control thing with me. No way, no fucking way, is this ever happening. Gender irrelevant.

No way am I the kind of control freak you claim to be.

Or Netzach, either.

But gender is very relevant to my original thought processes. I was asking my questions in the context of gender, really.

 

[JMohegan]

No way am I the kind of control freak you claim to be.

Or Netzach, either.

But gender is very relevant to my original thought processes. I was asking my questions in the context of gender, really.

Oops. Apologies for the threadjack. Carry on!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oops. Apologies for the threadjack. Carry on!

No, you haven't threadjacked, now that I think about it!

In fact, lemme ask you this-- If you really think about it... in what ways do you-- you yourself-- feel you'd be giving up control, letting someone else give you an orgasm?

How about if we phrase it-- expecting that someone else gives you an orgasm, as Mistress Lisa suggests the situation would be more accurately described?

Have you ever demanded a BJ in semi-public?

What would be the difference in your perception, between a guy face-fucking someone, and a woman laying back with her legs wide open? Would you perceive that she's accepting a service? Because for the female tops I've talked to, much of their hesitancy is that they won't allow men to see them that way lest the dudes lose respect for them.

It's been an interesting convo, here there and everywhere. My favorite kind!

 

[welkin]

What would be the difference in your perception, between a guy face-fucking someone, and a woman laying back with her legs wide open? Would you perceive that she's accepting a service? Because for the female tops I've talked to, much of their hesitancy is that they won't allow men to see them that way lest the dudes lose respect for them.

Interesting... it seems like the men are always getting the (perceived) upper hand, whether they're giving oral or receiving it!

I think the "natural" dom/sub aspects of "penetrating a woman" are just so deeply ingrained in our brain that we are having a hard time wiring some new connections. And physiologically, it seems to make sense. A penis can probably do quite a bit of damage to a vagina (hemorrhage perhaps?), but what can a vagina do? Can it squeeze so hard and break a penis?

 

[ImOnIt]

Interesting... it seems like the men are always getting the (perceived) upper hand, whether they're giving oral or receiving it!

I think the "natural" dom/sub aspects of "penetrating a woman" are just so deeply ingrained in our brain that we are having a hard time wiring some new connections. And physiologically, it seems to make sense. A penis can probably do quite a bit of damage to a vagina (hemorrhage perhaps?), but what can a vagina do? Can it squeeze so hard and break a penis?

Cock pushups. Labia presses. World Genital Games 2012

 

[welkin]

Cock pushups. Labia presses. World Genital Games 2012

This reminds me of the Chinese word for "contradiction", which literally reads "spear and shield". The story for its origin goes (copied from google)...

In ancient times, there was a sword and shield salesman who would yell out to people passing by, “My spears are the sharpest in the world and can pierce anything.” But with the very next breath, he would say, “My shields are the strongest in the world, and nothing can penetrate them!” One day, someone asked him, “What happens if someone throws one of your spears at one of your shields?”

Now I wonder if we pit the genital winners against each other...

 

[Stella_Omega]

Interesting... it seems like the men are always getting the (perceived) upper hand, whether they're giving oral or receiving it!

I think the "natural" dom/sub aspects of "penetrating a woman" are just so deeply ingrained in our brain that we are having a hard time wiring some new connections. And physiologically, it seems to make sense. A penis can probably do quite a bit of damage to a vagina (hemorrhage perhaps?), but what can a vagina do? Can it squeeze so hard and break a penis?

I'm in the rewiring game.

If a penis really hurts a vag, the penis gets pretty damn battered in the process. Check out the police reports of rape suspects. They will say "subject's genitals show evidence of violent congress" or something like that.

 

[welkin]

I'm in the rewiring game.

I have no experience, but I wonder if stronger language from the female top would help put both her and the bottom in the right mindset, maybe with the threat of some punishment if let's say the cunnilingus is not performed up to par?

Or is rewiring a bigger problem than an individual can fix, i.e. it's others' opinions that the female tops are worried about, so maybe cunnilingus or other forms of "showing vulnerability" is something she'd be comfortable doing in private, but is queasy about if done in front of others...

 

[Stella_Omega]

I have no experience, but I wonder if stronger language from the female top would help put both her and the bottom in the right mindset, maybe with the threat of some punishment if let's say the cunnilingus is not performed up to par?

That could work, although I like to think that my bottom would commit to give the best possible performance out of love for me-- or at the very least, a sense of professional pride, so to speak

Or is rewiring a bigger problem than an individual can fix, i.e. it's others' opinions that the female tops are worried about, so maybe cunnilingus or other forms of "showing vulnerability" is something she'd be comfortable doing in private, but is queasy about if done in front of others...

For the women I've talked to so far, yeah, seems to be. some women have said that they worry about the men they dominate losing respect for them. I don't know if their worries are relevant, but that's what they've said... I mean, from what I know of men, I wouldn't worry about it so much. But then I'm not a Domme...

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

I keep coming back to this thread and reading...and reading...and reading because there are so many things that speak to me.

I am genderfucked. My outside does not match my inside.
I am a Daddi but not a Dominant.
I am a Top who has a raging pain slut trapped inside.

All of this means that my labels are not set in stone. I have no trouble allowing anyone to hurt me in a scene, especially if it is for show BUT the idea of allowing someone that I consider bottomish to get me off? Sets fifty billion bells ringing in my head.

That thought includes men and women. My orgasms are mine. I control who gets to give them to me or whether or not I want ANYONE to give them to me. They are personal, private and something that makes me feel less than in control if someone is taking it upon themselves to get me off.

It has nothing to do with my dominance, not really. It is more about my inability to lay back and accept ANYTHING, even pleasure. In my heart, I am a boi. I am the giver, the do-er, the one who controls and takes. I am the care giver, the one who protects and cherishes and punishes as needed.

Still I don't think it is a dominance issue. I can cheerfully be beaten bloody, be bound, exposed, forced...and my brain doesn't give two fucks about it. I don't feel submissive, not even during those types of scenes and I am only releasing my inner pain in a safe, sane way for the enlightenment of others. But pleasure? ICK. I don't think I can do it.

I would feel less boi and far too much girl, for my own sanity.

So Stella you are amazing for attempting something I would never willingly do and I expect to learn quite a bit from you, when all is said and done.

 

[KoPilot]

i've never been on display in that sense before, but in a more general sense, i think that orgasmic, creative, raw energy is transferred out to the whole entire room. you could even view the submissive male top as a tool designed to give out all of your orgasmic energy to every gender in the room. maybe even accompanied by thickened air.

This is actually exactly why I could never see myself going to an event/demo like this, and why the idea of public exhibitionism/sex instantly sets off my "fight or flight" anxiety alarm. My lizard brain views it as a threat in the same way as being approached by a stranger while I'm walking alone by myself at night on the street, just more intense and claustrophobic. (I've investigated the distant panic I get when looking at pictures from the likes of Public Disgrace, and I didn't get very far.)

So... I guess I just wanted to say that the idea of being put on display like that can DEFINITELY be seen as topping the entire audience.

 

[Etoile]

Nice av, woman! Congratulations.

Post-grad employment opportunity found here....

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-met-kass-0303-20110303,0,1596914.column

Thank you! And I wish I could have had classes like that.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This is actually exactly why I could never see myself going to an event/demo like this, and why the idea of public exhibitionism/sex instantly sets off my "fight or flight" anxiety alarm. My lizard brain views it as a threat in the same way as being approached by a stranger while I'm walking alone by myself at night on the street, just more intense and claustrophobic. (I've investigated the distant panic I get when looking at pictures from the likes of Public Disgrace, and I didn't get very far.)

So... I guess I just wanted to say that the idea of being put on display like that can DEFINITELY be seen as topping the entire audience.

You mean you dont want to be in the audience?

I have that same reaction to certain situations myself-- stand up comedy for instance (not joking)

 

[JMohegan]

ooookay, I've just been challenged to put my money where my mouth is.

I just got a call from a Domme-- and y'all know I don't use that term lightly-- who asks me if I would bottom for a demo sometime in the coming months. It's a pleasuring demo.

No, you haven't threadjacked, now that I think about it!

In fact, lemme ask you this-- If you really think about it... in what ways do you-- you yourself-- feel you'd be giving up control, letting someone else give you an orgasm?

How about if we phrase it-- expecting that someone else gives you an orgasm, as Mistress Lisa suggests the situation would be more accurately described?

Have you ever demanded a BJ in semi-public?

What would be the difference in your perception, between a guy face-fucking someone, and a woman laying back with her legs wide open? Would you perceive that she's accepting a service? Because for the female tops I've talked to, much of their hesitancy is that they won't allow men to see them that way lest the dudes lose respect for them.

It's been an interesting convo, here there and everywhere. My favorite kind!

Apologies for truncating your opening post; I did it to emphasize my response.

You lost me at "bottom." If I'm not in control, I'm not aroused. And if a sexual partner tries to act like the one in control, I am actively pissed off to the point of walking.

This doesn't have anything to do with "letting someone else give me an orgasm." To make a point or two (and occasionally just because I'm in the mood), I've been known to lie down on my back, hands crossed under my head, and give the "get me off" order. Not often, but the relative infrequency has nothing to do with disliking the passive reception of pleasure. It's just that I'm more often in the mood to be sexually aggressive, and find the result much more satisfying.

As for the question re face-fucking v. missionary, to be honest, to me all penetration feels like a form of conquest (with me the one doing the conquering). Some conquests loving & tender, others forceful, playful, whatever. Even the passive, flat on my back, bj feels like conquest to me, because I either directly told, or clearly inspired, the woman to do it.

I'm certain that the exact same physical actions could be translated in myriad ways by different guys. I'm not making universal statements here; just relaying what goes on in my own, individual, head.

 

[Netzach]

I'm thinking about this, and my orgasmic process has never been a lay back and be probed one, actually. It's more dick challenged thrusting and pointed toes and once is enough. I'd be a very poor "girl" demo.

I can get fucked and maintain the "I'm being serviced" angle. Easily. I can also get fucked and lose that angle. If you know your partner well, both of you will be on the same page doing the same thing different days.

I just can't imagine maintaining that head with an audience. At least one I don't know and can't ignore completely. I'll do a lot of stuff in front of people while ignoring them, but somehow the demo context can't allow that for me. Ugh.

 

[Netzach]

Interesting... it seems like the men are always getting the (perceived) upper hand, whether they're giving oral or receiving it!

I think the "natural" dom/sub aspects of "penetrating a woman" are just so deeply ingrained in our brain that we are having a hard time wiring some new connections. And physiologically, it seems to make sense. A penis can probably do quite a bit of damage to a vagina (hemorrhage perhaps?), but what can a vagina do? Can it squeeze so hard and break a penis?

So obsessed with pain so bored by pleasure. A penis has to *work* to make a vagina feel good. It has to learn sit stay and control yourself. Its user has to pay attention. It can be dismissed if it doesn't put on a good show. It has to know when to leave tactfully and when to keep showing up JUST when it's wanted again.

God, if there's one hetero Domme archetype I can get into it's the crazed aristocrat lying in a pile of lifted skirts with a lineup of lesser gentry keeping her amused one after another after another.

 

[KoPilot]

You mean you dont want to be in the audience?

I have that same reaction to certain situations myself-- stand up comedy for instance (not joking)

Yeah, I couldn't do it. I actually had something of a panic attack while S was talking to me one night and happened to bring up some video he'd seen of a couple fucking on a subway that someone had taken on their phone or something. He was talking about it like it was no big deal (which, I guess, assuming no one else was bothered by it, it wasn't), but just thinking about it made me go into this horrible, "I want to die", panic mode.

It's something I've thought about working on becoming desensitized to, but I figured... why? It's not like sexual exhibitionism is something you need to get used to in order to get along in the world. So for me, it would be a lot of work and heartache for little payoff.

I can imagine that, for normal folks, though, they might get the 'topping' impression from being in the audience, especially if you carry yourself in that way and go in there with the intention of doing it.

As for stand up, huh. I've never thought of it that way, but I can definitely see it. Never done live comedy myself, but now that I think about it, I get a very subtle version of that feeling when seeing live music..

Weird.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Apologies for truncating your opening post; I did it to emphasize my response.

You lost me at "bottom." If I'm not in control, I'm not aroused. And if a sexual partner tries to act like the one in control, I am actively pissed off to the point of walking.

This doesn't have anything to do with "letting someone else give me an orgasm." To make a point or two (and occasionally just because I'm in the mood), I've been known to lie down on my back, hands crossed under my head, and give the "get me off" order. Not often, but the relative infrequency has nothing to do with disliking the passive reception of pleasure. It's just that I'm more often in the mood to be sexually aggressive, and find the result much more satisfying.

As for the question re face-fucking v. missionary, to be honest, to me all penetration feels like a form of conquest (with me the one doing the conquering). Some conquests loving & tender, others forceful, playful, whatever. Even the passive, flat on my back, bj feels like conquest to me, because I either directly told, or clearly inspired, the woman to do it.

I'm certain that the exact same physical actions could be translated in myriad ways by different guys. I'm not making universal statements here; just relaying what goes on in my own, individual, head.

Which is exactly what I was asking for and I thank you!

It's interesting that you translated "laying back and spreading her legs" to "missionary." I was thinking of cunnilingus, as the corrolary to fellatio

So, I guess the question should be, if you witnessed a woman lay back and give the "get me off" order to her sub, would you perceive her as being in less control than a man facefucking his sub?

And the question this brings up for myself, is why should I assume that I must lie back during this demo... my vision of female sexuality is slightly skewed to passive, methinks. And I should know better. Wow.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm thinking about this, and my orgasmic process has never been a lay back and be probed one, actually. It's more dick challenged thrusting and pointed toes and once is enough. I'd be a very poor "girl" demo.

I can get fucked and maintain the "I'm being serviced" angle. Easily. I can also get fucked and lose that angle. If you know your partner well, both of you will be on the same page doing the same thing different days.

Oh, for sure, and as a dyke top I can service a woman or take a woman-- the same woman, depending on where our heads are... I know exactly what you mean!

I just can't imagine maintaining that head with an audience. At least one I don't know and can't ignore completely. I'll do a lot of stuff in front of people while ignoring them, but somehow the demo context can't allow that for me. Ugh.

I've done one demo for this group-- catheterizing, because I'd never experienced that and I have a fascination with male sounding-- if I had a cock I'd be shoving things down my piss hole all the time, and I'm not ashamed to say so! The top tried a vibrating sound on me. it felt great against my pubic bone-- enough that I was wholly concentrated on the sensation, but yeah, I couldn't ignore the people around me long enough to finish.

Will be a challenge.

 

[JMohegan]

Which is exactly what I was asking for and I thank you!

It's interesting that you translated "laying back and spreading her legs" to "missionary." I was thinking of cunnilingus, as the corrolary to fellatio

So, I guess the question should be, if you witnessed a woman lay back and give the "get me off" order to her sub, would you perceive her as being in less control than a man facefucking his sub?

And the question this brings up for myself, is why should I assume that I must lie back during this demo... my vision of female sexuality is slightly skewed to passive, methinks. And I should know better. Wow.

Oh, okay, I see now what you were asking.

My answer to the question in bold is no, of course not. I mean, as long as the s obeyed and followed through.

Physically overpowering someone (e.g., facefucking) isn't real control of a person, as I would define it. A type of control, sure, but control of the body as opposed to control of the will.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh, okay, I see now what you were asking.

My answer to the question in bold is no, of course not. I mean, as long as the s obeyed and followed through.

Physically overpowering someone (e.g., facefucking) isn't real control of a person, as I would define it. A type of control, sure, but control of the body as opposed to control of the will.

Thank you. It's such a quandary for women-- do they trust in men like yourself? Or do they (dis)trust the quote "sub" men that abound and judge women by way of their "sub" preferences?

This does make me happy that I've eschewed that game!