poll: what is chivalry?

[silverwhisper]

inspired by a discussion taking place elsewhere: to you, what is chivalry? what does it mean? is it still relevant today and if so how--and if not, why not?

it's very common to hear/read "chivalry" and think "gender relations" these days--i know, because i do it, too. but it's important to understand that chivalry is intended to govern interactions of individuals with others, including their superiors, peers and social inferiors, back when everyone believed there actually were superiors and inferiors. i thought the wiki on the subject was kinda interesting reading.

so having said all of that: what's your view on the matter?

ed

p.s.: i'm not creating a poll with options that you can click, because i don't think that it's possible to address the likely range of responses accurately that way, so rather than have a whole bunch of people say, "dude, you're missing a poll option", i figured this would be a lot easier.

p.p.s: as usual, my answer will come later, yadda yadda yadda...

 

[yuna1981]

Ed thanks for the thoughtful question.

Chivalry does have that "knights of the round table" connotation for me. It makes me think about a related word, civility, which I think is largely lacking today. You do hear calls for civility today, but not for a return of chivalry... I suppose that means that chivalry just doesn't have the same kind of meaning that it did, it's too outmoded and as you say is centrally about gender relations.

I don't think that a call for renewed chivalry is going to trigger an effective movement, which I guess means that it can't serve as the banner for people to treat each other better. Again as you point out there is this idea of inequality embedded in it, which goes up against ideals we have today about meritocracy (even though we still have lots of inequality in reality).

It does persist in ideals that we have for romance I think, why women still enjoy these rather outmoded "chivalrous" acts. I'm not innocent either, I enjoy them as well. Two days ago a guy opened a door for me, and it hadn't happened in awhile so I was actually surprised by this, and it made me happy. Can someone be chivalrous without raising these questions of hierarchy and inequality?

 

[cromsgirl]

For me "chivalry" has a few meanings.

First and foremost it is treating everyone around you with courtesy. It is keeping your promises and living up to the ideals of honor and generosity. It is taking care of the people that depend on you, helping your neighbors when needed and doing your part. It is not being selfish. Everything from holding a door for someone to giving them good advice.

It also refers to the knights and other peers in the SCA (I've been playing for almost 20 years) as well as their personal symbols and household symbols. It refers to the pageantry we have during our court events.

It does not mean that you are a pushover and that you can't say no. Chivalry does not mean that you have no backbone. It means being connected and invested in a community and helping that community to work.

 

[fgarvb1]

I don't know, but apparently whatever that is and "class" and "humble"is I have it and lots of it.

Apparently if it doesn't come naturally and if you don't have it you can't get it.

I have no clue.

 

[jehoram]

For me "chivalry" has a few meanings.


It also refers to the knights and other peers in the SCA (I've been playing for almost 20 years) as well as their personal symbols and household symbols. It refers to the pageantry we have during our court events.

Some friends of mine have been in the SCA for a while, and I remember one of them telling me a story about two SCA knights who were having a drink at a bar when some other people started to get rough towards a black guy there.

Now this wasn't at an SCA Faire or anything ... it was just two blokes having a drink. But when this black guy got threatened, one looked at the other. They were both thinking "What kind of knights are we if we won't defend the helpless? Isn't that what knights are supposed to do?" So they got up and put themselves between the black guy and the other bullies, and told them, "If you want to fight with him, you've got to fight us, too." These were big guys, and they were used to being hit and showed it, so the bullies backed down.

To me, that's chivalry.

 

[silverwhisper]

yuna quoth:
ed thanks for the thoughtful question.

and here i was thinking i was being a stuffy fucktard... :>

yuna quoth:
i suppose that means that chivalry just doesn't have the same kind of meaning that it did, it's too outmoded and as you say is centrally about gender relations.

well, i said gender relations are what everyone thinks, but we're wrong. :>

yuna quoth:
there is this idea of inequality embedded in it, which goes up against ideals we have today about meritocracy (even though we still have lots of inequality in reality).

that's an interesting point re: inequality that i'm gonna touch on.

yuna quoth:
can someone be chivalrous without raising these questions of hierarchy and inequality?

i think that depends more or less entirely upon the beneficiary of these acts, actually.

cromsgirl quoth:
for me "chivalry" has a few meanings. first and foremost it is treating everyone around you with courtesy. it is keeping your promises and living up to the ideals of honor and generosity. it is taking care of the people that depend on you, helping your neighbors when needed and doing your part. it is not being selfish. everything from holding a door for someone to giving them good advice.

[nods] that all makes sense.

cromsgirl quoth:
Ii also refers to the knights and other peers in the SCA (i've been playing for almost 20 years) as well as their personal symbols and household symbols. it refers to the pageantry we have during our court events.

i know of SCA but haven't been involved. i'm surprised to learn that this meaning of chivalry is being used in this fashion, though.

cromsgirl quoth:
it means being connected and invested in a community and helping that community to work.

i like that summary a great deal.

fgarvb1 quoth:
i don't know, but apparently whatever that is and "class" and "humble" is i have it and lots of it. apparently if it doesn't come naturally and if you don't have it you can't get it. i have no clue.

i somehow don't think you're as clueless as you think. i suspect that if you gave an honest, unrepressed answer you might be pleasantly surprised by the results, to be honest. JMHO.

jehoram quoth:
some friends of mine have been in the SCA for a while, and i remember one of them telling me a story about two SCA knights who were having a drink at a bar when some other people started to get rough towards a black guy there.

now this wasn't at an SCA faire or anything ... it was just two blokes having a drink. but when this black guy got threatened, one looked at the other. they were both thinking "what kind of knights are we if we won't defend the helpless? isn't that what knights are supposed to do?" so they got up and put themselves between the black guy and the other bullies, and told them, "if you want to fight with him, you've got to fight us, too." these were big guys, and they were used to being hit and showed it, so the bullies backed down.

to me, that's chivalry.

that's freaking awesome: thanks for taking the type to relate that tale!

ed

 

[bailadora]

It means being connected and invested in a community and helping that community to work.

This pretty much sums it up for me.

Interestingly enough, I just had this discussion with someone last week who made a comment about how much she loved working with the guys in her office because they were so chivalrous (ie holding the doors, letting the ladies exit the elevator first, etc). It was her opinion that more men ought to act this way. I countered with the opinion that chivalry is not the sole purview of one particular gender and should be practiced by all human beings, as a matter of common courtesy.

 

[fire_breeze]

inspired by a discussion taking place elsewhere: to you, what is chivalry? what does it mean? is it still relevant today and if so how--and if not, why not?

it's very common to hear/read "chivalry" and think "gender relations" these days--i know, because i do it, too. but it's important to understand that chivalry is intended to govern interactions of individuals with others, including their superiors, peers and social inferiors, back when everyone believed there actually were superiors and inferiors. i thought the wiki on the subject was kinda interesting reading.

Another thought provoking thread.

I'm going to go against the grain and say I don't connect chivalry with gender relations. Yes, one of the components is 'duties towards women', however, that is not all that it is about. It's about going beyond, about being compassionate and considerate to those who are weaker (physically). It's about protecting those who cannot protect themselves without assuming arrogance or superiority. It's about putting others before us, and encouraging us to be unselfish in thinking what's best for others.

Perhaps because I contextualise cultural phenomena, I see chivalry as a product of its time as a reaction to the chaos and instability that dominated the majority of the Middle Ages. Hierarchy was definitely a factor in shaping the Mediaeval cult because hierarchy was pivotal in the times, but I have to disagree with Yuna and say that today, we can speak of modern chivalry without bringing in inequality, because chivalry puts the others first as the other is more important than the self. It's inequality towards the self.
(and besides, seeing as we live in a plutocracy as opposed to a democracy, this concept becomes even more important). The world is different today, but the concept can be adapted without losing its essence.

 

[newlegz]

... it was just two blokes having a drink. But when this black guy got threatened, one looked at the other. They were both thinking "What kind of knights are we if we won't defend the helpless? Isn't that what knights are supposed to do?" So they got up and put themselves between the black guy and the other bullies, and told them, "If you want to fight with him, you've got to fight us, too." These were big guys, and they were used to being hit and showed it, so the bullies backed down.

To me, that's chivalry.

Good for them!!! The best complement I ever got was in high school, a girl's dad (we'll call her sally) ran into my mother at work. Oh hey my kid goes to that school...whats her name...yadda. Well it turned out that the man knew who I was, because one day at school Sally was being picked on and allegedly I said something along the lines of "listen, we dont do that here." I'm telling you I never realized now much doing something like that could really help someone until then. (This Dad thanked my mother for about 5 minutes. For raising such a good kid, to have her tell me thanks, etc.) It might be the one time in my life to this point that I've really felt like a true success. Theres actually a really great Emerson quote about that "To know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived... That is to have succeeded". To me, that sums up chivalry pretty well.

I also must say that another way I see it a lot is when going out with mixed gender groups of friends. There are times when having a trustworthy member of the opposite sex "rescue" you is the height of chivalry. And yes, there are even times when us girls have to step up and help out the guys. While it does mean I get hit on less, I always know I'll make it home safe.

Oh wait two more great examples: giving up your seat on public transportation to whomever needs it for whatever reason (both genders do this) and my favorite- helping someone in a store reach something on a high shelf.

Love the thread btw...

 

[Nidhogg]

Yes the term chivalry certainly evokes a connotation of gender relations, but this is primarily because of the redefinition of the term in the late middle ages. It was a term being used as a code of conduct and etiquette for nobles.

Prior to that redefinition chivalry was actually quite basic. Chivalry was duty. But it was duty to more than just a country, or a person, or a religion. It was duty to all of these. Being more of a literature fellow than an actual medieval historian, I don't know how much of a role actual chivalry played in medieval culture. However I do believe that the symbol of the chivalric knight was more than just a vessel for a good story.

In my opinion, chivalry is one's duty to aid your homeland without forsaking your fellow human. To aid your fellow human without forsaking those you love. To protect those you love without forsaking what you believe. To follow your beliefs without losing sight of the world around you.

It may seem like an impossible standard to adhere to, but that is what symbols are for.

I really enjoyed seeing some examples of chivalry making the things better for people here on this thread. I had a similar experience to what jehoram said about the SCA knights. Several actually. I did what I thought was right, to protect people who didn't deserve the treatment they were getting. Fair warning, not everyone backs down. Just make sure you're ready to live with the consequences of doing what's right.

There is nothing that destroys a person more than regretting doing the right thing.

 

[silverwhisper]

fire breeze quoth:
i'm going to go against the grain and say i don't connect chivalry with gender relations. yes, one of the components is 'duties towards women', however, that is not all that it is about. it's about going beyond, about being compassionate and considerate to those who are weaker (physically). it's about protecting those who cannot protect themselves without assuming arrogance or superiority. it's about putting others before us, and encouraging us to be unselfish in thinking what's best for others.

perhaps because i contextualise cultural phenomena, i see chivalry as a product of its time as a reaction to the chaos and instability that dominated the majority of the middle ages. hierarchy was definitely a factor in shaping the mediaeval cult because hierarchy was pivotal in the times, but i have to disagree with yuma and say that today, we can speak of modern chivalry without bringing in inequality, because chivalry puts the others first as the other is more important than the self. It's inequality towards the self. (and besides, seeing as we live in a plutocracy as opposed to a democracy, this concept becomes even more important). the world is different today, but the concept can be adapted without losing its essence.

as you will see, you and i are very much in agreement on the subject.

newlegz quoth:
i'm telling you i never realized now much doing something like that could really help someone until then.

that's really cool!

newlegz quoth:
theres actually a really great emerson quote about that "to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived...that is to have succeeded". to me, that sums up chivalry pretty well.

i wasn't familiar with that quote before but i really like it!

nidhogg quoth:
...i do believe that the symbol of the chivalric knight was more than just a vessel for a good story.

in my opinion, chivalry is one's duty to aid your homeland without forsaking your fellow humant To aid your fellow human without forsaking those you love. to protect those you love without forsaking what you believe. to follow your beliefs without losing sight of the world around you.

it may seem like an impossible standard to adhere to, but that is what symbols are for.

i love your username, and i completely agree re: symbols. if they serve to inspire us, they must be an ideal, whatever that may mean.

ed

 

[silverwhisper]

as to my own thoughts...

the wiki quoth:
when examining medieval literature, chivalry can be classified into three basic but overlapping areas:

1. duties to countrymen and fellow christians: this contains virtues such as mercy, courage, valor, fairness, protection of the weak and the poor, and in the servant-hood of the knight to his lord. this also brings with it the idea of being willing to give one’s life for another’s; whether he would be giving his life for a poor man or his lord.

2. duties to god: this would contain being faithful to god, protecting the innocent, being faithful to the church, being the champion of good against evil, being generous and obeying god above the feudal lord.

3. duties to women: this is probably the most familiar aspect of chivalry. this would contain what is often called courtly love, the idea that the knight is to serve a lady, and after her all other ladies. most especially in this category is a general gentleness and graciousness to all women.

as a non-christian non-landholding non-european, one might argue that the chivalric code is of zero relevance to me. after all, these guidelines were developed to address privileged people who follow christianity to be good christians who use their influence on behalf of the less privileged.

but the idea of chivalry is so powerful, i remake it in my own image. in this way, i adapt the idea of chivalry to be meaningful in the modern day. after all, it's a good concept.

so here's what i believe chivalry is nowadays:

1. i believe any person with relevant influence or skill has a moral responsibility to use that influence or skill on behalf of others when confronted with an opportunity to do so, whether that be in the context of an ideal, a religion or a philosophy or simply defending someone from crime.

2. i believe any person with relevant influence or skill has a moral responsibility to deploy that influence or skill to defend his or her community when it faces a threat. "community" is deliberately left nebulous.

3. i believe any person has a moral responsibility to provide compassion when provided an opportunity to do so.

to me, this is what chivalry must be in the modern day. the courtroom has replaced the jousting pitch; the wit, the sword. each age has its peculiarities, and ideas adapt to the age.

ed

 

[bailadora]

Theres actually a really great Emerson quote about that "To know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived... That is to have succeeded".

*nods* That whole poem/prose (?) selection is kick ass.

i wasn't familiar with that quote before but i really like it!

Ed, I think you'd appreciate the rest of it, as well:

To Have Succeded

To laugh often and love much:
To win the respect of intelligent people
And the affection of children;
To earn the approbation of honest critics
And endure the betrayal of false friends;
To appreciate beauty;
To find the best in others;
To give one's self;
To leave the world a little better,
Whether by a healthy child,
A garden patch,
Or redeemed social condition;
To have played and laughed with enthusiasm
And sung with exultation;
To know even one life has breathed easier
Because you have lived...
This is to have succeeded.

 

[Cratchit]

To me, it's doing the kind and selfless things for either gender without being concerned with how it will look or if it will benefit yourself.

 

[silverwhisper]

bailadora: thanks, i wasn't familiar with that one. my interest in poetry generally revolves around the first generation of british romantics, so it's pretty deficient otherwise.

cratchit, i particularly like your addendum re: not being concerned with how it benefitst oneseflf.

ed

 

[Cattypuss]

This is really interesting.

In this country, "chivalry" means primarily protocol associated with knights (we still have knights - new knighthoods are conferred every year here). Its secondary meaning is around the idea of behaving in a courtly and old-fashioned way towards women - and is ALWAYS a word used to describe a man - you would never, ever call a woman "chivalrous".

 

[Cratchit]

well, i think that it has to be that way. that you don't care if it benefits you or raises you in one's eyes. you do it because it feels like the right thing to do

 

[sillypanda]

Not to be glib, but I think the best way I can explain what I think of it is: thoughtfulness. Being aware of others, their situations, their surroundings, and doing what you can to help. Also, I don't think it needs to be restricted to one gender acting in aid of another; chivalrous acts can be performed BY anyone FOR anyone.

Sorry to be so brief, and am I the only idiot who doesn't know who/what SCA is?, but nonetheless, I think it is getting rarer day by day, but that just makes the times when you see it that much more endearing. ^^

 

[bailadora]

Sorry to be so brief, and am I the only idiot who doesn't know who/what SCA is?

SCA = Society for Creative Anachronism. Clicky.

And you're not a idiot. Just unaware of this particular org.

 

[sillypanda]

SCA = Society for Creative Anachronism. Clicky.

And you're not a idiot. Just unaware of this particular org.

Ahh, very cool - thank you Bailadora! :* You learn something new everyday - and I was about to go to sleep having learned nothing! :O

 

[CoyoteTales]

Chivalry: Not Dead. Just Resting.

To me, chivalry is less about the armor and more about the tenets that are associated with being a knight:

Honor -- To conduct your decisions in the way which serves the greater good of society, and harms the fewest people. To keep your vows and disrespect noone, whether to their face nor behind their back. To fight to defend your rights and territory.

Humility -- To never stroke your ego to the point of being arrogant and vain. It is more chivalrous to simply perform your responsibilities without expectation of accolades or reward.

Respect -- Where it is owed. A knight would never speak out against his or her liege lord, because it would dishonor both speaker and target. In this day and age, one respects your equals, strangers, and does not disparage those who are not equals, as they may be equals (or better!) someday.

Valor -- Being willing to fight for a just cause, saving those who are endangered, instead of running away from a fight or passing by. Assisting those who are injured, even if it inconveniences you.

Service -- Going out of your way to assist others who could use a helping hand. Covers everything from opening doors to helping pick up spilled grocery items to distracting a crying baby on an airplane. Can also include being the shoulder someone cries on without taking advantage of the situation.

Anyway, that's my two centavos.

-CT

 

[darwina7]

Chivalry

To me, the modern translation of "chivalry" is male behavior towards women that is thoughtful and polite. It's being helpful. For example, a man is chivalrous if, instead of standing around and mutely watching a woman struggle through an awkward situation (whether it be carrying a piece of heavy furniture or it being verbally denigrated by another man), he steps in. He does this because he knows that as a man, he's capable of helping her. And I don't think it's "dead," but unfortunately it's on the wane: chivalrous behavior has been portrayed by some as outdated and a sexist insult, which is totally missing the point.

 

[yuna1981]

This is really interesting.

In this country, "chivalry" means primarily protocol associated with knights (we still have knights - new knighthoods are conferred every year here). Its secondary meaning is around the idea of behaving in a courtly and old-fashioned way towards women - and is ALWAYS a word used to describe a man - you would never, ever call a woman "chivalrous".

I really like this point, that you would never call a woman "chivalrous." Though I totally support discussions about how we can be better to each other, I just don't buy that "chivalry" is the best banner for it.

 

[Pleasure_Fan]

So, did I do this correctly? By generally accepted definition here, I was being chivalric, was I not?

(From another post)
I had a guy come up to me once, visibly shaking and asking if he could touch my tits. He couldn't take his eyes off of them. It was sublimely ridiculous... I put his hand on my tit myself while I gave him a kiss. He THANKED me...profusely. Hah! Who says chivalry is dead...??

 

[silverwhisper]

cattypuss quoth:
in this country, "chivalry" means primarily protocol associated with knights (we still have knights - new knighthoods are conferred every year here). its secondary meaning is around the idea of behaving in a courtly and old-fashioned way towards women - and is always a word used to describe a man - you would never, ever call a woman "chivalrous".

i sometimes forget that the demographic of lit is international and it never dawned on me to explore what usage & currency the word enjoys out your way. that was very informative: thank you, cattypuss.

cratchit quoth:
well, i think that it has to be that way. that you don't care if it benefits you or raises you in one's eyes. you do it because it feels like the right thing to do

i am in complete agreement.

sillypanda quoth:
not to be glib, but i think the best way i can explain what i think of it is: thoughtfulness. being aware of others, their situations, their surroundings, and doing what you can to help. also, i don't think it needs to be restricted to one gender acting in aid of another; chivalrous acts can be performed by anyone for anyone.

...but nonetheless, i think it is getting rarer day by day, but that just makes the times when you see it that much more endearing. ^^

i like that formulation: given its roots, i think people often tend to associate chivalry with the big, obvious displays of power in defense of someone else--but i think chivalry can certainly be more like you describe it: gender neutral and about less obvious displays of influence.

coyotetales quoth:
to me, chivalry is less about the armor and more about the tenets that are associated with being a knight:

honor -- to conduct your decisions in the way which serves the greater good of society, and harms the fewest people. to keep your vows and disrespect noone, whether to their face nor behind their back. to fight to defend your rights and territory.

humility -- to never stroke your ego to the point of being arrogant and vain. it is more chivalrous to simply perform your responsibilities without expectation of accolades or reward.

respect -- where it is owed. a knight would never speak out against his or her liege lord, because it would dishonor both speaker and target. in this day and age, one respects your equals, strangers, and does not disparage those who are not equals, as they may be equals (or better!) someday.

valor -- being willing to fight for a just cause, saving those who are endangered, instead of running away from a fight or passing by. assisting those who are injured, even if it inconveniences you.

service -- going out of your way to assist others who could use a helping hand. covers everything from opening doors to helping pick up spilled grocery items to distracting a crying baby on an airplane. can also include being the shoulder someone cries on without taking advantage of the situation.

anyway, that's my two centavos.

i rather liked that, esp your addendum re: respect.

darwina7 quoth:
to me, the modern translation of "chivalry" is male behavior towards women that is thoughtful and polite. it's being helpful. for example, a man is chivalrous if, instead of standing around and mutely watching a woman struggle through an awkward situation (whether it be carrying a piece of heavy furniture or it being verbally denigrated by another man), he steps in. he does this because he knows that as a man, he's capable of helping her. and i don't think it's "dead," but unfortunately it's on the wane: chivalrous behavior has been portrayed by some as outdated and a sexist insult, which is totally missing the point.

i agree that it's missing the point, but it seems to me that you are summarizing it as politeness. is this correct?

yuna1981 quoth:
i really like this point, that you would never call a woman "chivalrous." though i totally support discussions about how we can be better to each other, i just don't buy that "chivalry" is the best banner for it.

yeah, i think i'm with you on this, but i'll wait for clarification.

pleasure fan quoth:
so, did i do this correctly? by generally accepted definition here, i was being chivalric, was I not?

(from another post)
i had a guy come up to me once, visibly shaking and asking if he could touch my tits. he couldn't take his eyes off of them. it was sublimely ridiculous...i put his hand on my tit myself while i gave him a kiss. he thanked me...profusely. hah! who says chivalry is dead...??

well, while i'm not sure if i'd say it's chivalrous, it was certainly kind and generous.

ed