Punishing masochists

[MisterSir]

So I'm in the position of asking a question I'm sure has been asked before. Don't worry, I'll come in the thread again and lambast myself for asking such a stupid and obvious question. Wouldn't want people thinking I was a hypocrite.

Anyway. The accepted wisdom is that punishments - where that word means a genuine punishment for a rule infraction of some kind, rather than as a synonym for playing - should not be pleasant or fun things for the pyl to endure, since the idea seems to be that it should be penance, reminding the pyl that what she did was wrong and that it is a bad thing to do.

The problem is that typical punishments are generally of the corporal variety, and when dealing with a masochist that won't work. With mild masochists, it is possible to simply go harder and hurt them harder than they enjoy, but with heavier masochists like I'm potentially going to have to deal with, even that's not an option.

So, this is me half asking for broad suggestions on alternative punishments and half opening the floor for debate. Remember, I'm still all new and inexperienced at this. Imagine me as Bambi, except in this metaphor I'm not learning to walk, I'm delivering my first tentative whipping. If that makes sense. Which I suspect it does not.

 

[switchbitch]

So I'm in the position of asking a question I'm sure has been asked before. Don't worry, I'll come in the thread again and lambast myself for asking such a stupid and obvious question. Wouldn't want people thinking I was a hypocrite.

Anyway. The accepted wisdom is that punishments - where that word means a genuine punishment for a rule infraction of some kind, rather than as a synonym for playing - should not be pleasant or fun things for the pyl to endure, since the idea seems to be that it should be penance, reminding the pyl that what she did was wrong and that it is a bad thing to do.

The problem is that typical punishments are generally of the corporal variety, and when dealing with a masochist that won't work. With mild masochists, it is possible to simply go harder and hurt them harder than they enjoy, but with heavier masochists like I'm potentially going to have to deal with, even that's not an option.

So, this is me half asking for broad suggestions on alternative punishments and half opening the floor for debate. Remember, I'm still all new and inexperienced at this. Imagine me as Bambi, except in this metaphor I'm not learning to walk, I'm delivering my first tentative whipping. If that makes sense. Which I suspect it does not.

Even masochists have things they do not like, even though I am an extreme masochistthere are some places on my body I simply do not like pain. Discussions of the likes and dislikes of the sub or masochist early in the relationship or play will guide your hand accurately.

 

[satindesire]

When the sub in question has even a mild connection with the Dom and it's not just a feeling-less play or "FWB" situation, ignoring the sub works wonders, as does the knowledge that the sub has severely disappointed the Dom.

Giving her a good lecture about how upset you are, and then casting her away from you for a solid few hours will probably be more than enough to have her bawling for forgiveness.

 

[CutieMouse]

Aaaand why exactly is punishment necessary? What ever happened to dealing with things by having a rational adult conversation, and reaching an adult agreement about whatever transgression occured... Like grown ups or something?

 

[chy_girl]

One of the first things that was required of me when I was put under collar of consideration was that I research and write about the difference between a discipline and a punishment. Turns out there are very subtle but very large differences between the two. Then I was to come up with a list of 10 disciplines and 10 punishments. It was kept on file for everyone involved to refer to.

Generally speaking though, if I had displeased them it resulted in lack of play. If I got a little sammy in scene it would occasionally result in a few licks of the dragon's tongue to spots that hadn't been properly warmed. Otherwise they favored using the rabbit fur on me.

But, as satin mentioned, the worst punishment that I could ever be given was knowing I had displeased them. That tore me up because they were my Dominants and my choice of behavior had displeased them. Hell, they didn't even have to ignore me for a few hours. For a submissive who holds an emotional connection to his/her PYL... There really is nothing worse than the knowledge that you've disappointed them. And use this one carefully and sparingly. It can be enough to emotionally destroy a gal if done wrong.

ETA:

Aaaand why exactly is punishment necessary? What ever happened to dealing with things by having a rational adult conversation, and reaching an adult agreement about whatever transgression occured... Like grown ups or something?

Because for some people it is a component that works well. It doesn't mean that there isn't an adult discussion about it or that agreements aren't made. In my experience it tends to be talked to death. But, for me, I needed the structure. I need the structure. I had some basic lines that were spelled out with consequences that were also spelled out. It wasn't a practice to punish me for every little mistake - that's not what punishments were for. And there weren't punishments for for making mistakes in the process of my growing. But if I knowingly and willingly crossed a clearly marked line I knew what the options were for a consequence. It helped clarify what was a reaction and what was a choice.

Somehow it also created a stability. There wasn't any worry about having to expect that to suddenly change. Turns out that stability in my Dominant as well as in my submission is something that can't fluctuate.

I hope that makes at least a little sense.

 

[BiBunny]

In my opinion, that whole "silent treatment" thing is complete and utter bullshit.

 

[the captians wench]

When the sub in question has even a mild connection with the Dom and it's not just a feeling-less play or "FWB" situation, ignoring the sub works wonders, as does the knowledge that the sub has severely disappointed the Dom.

Giving her a good lecture about how upset you are, and then casting her away from you for a solid few hours will probably be more than enough to have her bawling for forgiveness.

Ignoring me will get you on my "do not fuck" list real quick.

I'm heavily service oriented, so all I need is the knowledge that he's upset and I'm already devistated. And when I'm in this mind set, things we normally do for fun feel...well they feel different. Or at least, my body reacts differently. So where I normally would be able to do 30 mins sitting on the tack board and not bat an eye, tell me you're disapointed and I'm getting 10 mins as punishment and I'm sobbing rivers.

For serious transgresions, he pulls something out from my "seriously, you want me to do what?" list. Mostly humiliation things, things I really don't find exciting, but he enjoys.

But punishment is really more for him than for my benifit anyway. I don't have a need to feel like I'm trading my suffering for his forgiveness. I punish myself way worse than anything he does when I just think he might be upset.

 

[MisterSir]

Aaaand why exactly is punishment necessary? What ever happened to dealing with things by having a rational adult conversation, and reaching an adult agreement about whatever transgression occured... Like grown ups or something?

Calm, CM, punishment is part of our dynamic - I make the rules, she abides by them, if she doesn't she is punished for it. I'm sure if she does break a rule, we will have a discussion about it, but that discussion will be accompanied by a punishment as an encouragement for her to strive not to break that rule again.

In my opinion, that whole "silent treatment" thing is complete and utter bullshit.

How so?

 

[ImOnIt]

You can limit your attention in a controlled way. I'm not at all keen on ignoring someone's existance, but you can certainly say they have displeased you, and act just a little cooler.

Thats different to the disrespectful or immature, such as dramatically storming out to go clubbing. Or to ignore someone POINTEDLY and deny their existance.

 

[JMohegan]

Calm, CM, punishment is part of our dynamic - I make the rules, she abides by them, if she doesn't she is punished for it. I'm sure if she does break a rule, we will have a discussion about it, but that discussion will be accompanied by a punishment as an encouragement for her to strive not to break that rule again.

What specific rules do you have in place? Which specific infractions warrant punishment?

 

[Keroin]

How well do you know this person? How well do you understand what she likes/love, dislikes/hates, etc?

 

[CutieMouse]

ETA:

Because for some people it is a component that works well. It doesn't mean that there isn't an adult discussion about it or that agreements aren't made. In my experience it tends to be talked to death. But, for me, I needed the structure. I need the structure. I had some basic lines that were spelled out with consequences that were also spelled out. It wasn't a practice to punish me for every little mistake - that's not what punishments were for. And there weren't punishments for for making mistakes in the process of my growing. But if I knowingly and willingly crossed a clearly marked line I knew what the options were for a consequence. It helped clarify what was a reaction and what was a choice.

Somehow it also created a stability. There wasn't any worry about having to expect that to suddenly change. Turns out that stability in my Dominant as well as in my submission is something that can't fluctuate.

I hope that makes at least a little sense.

Calm, CM, punishment is part of our dynamic - I make the rules, she abides by them, if she doesn't she is punished for it. I'm sure if she does break a rule, we will have a discussion about it, but that discussion will be accompanied by a punishment as an encouragement for her to strive not to break that rule again.

How so?

I think part of where punishment dynamics break down for me, is that I don't do punishment. I don't even do punishment with my children; instead we have consequences.

I *totally* understand the need for structure - structure and I are really good friends - but every time "punishment" comes up I go "Huh? "

Maybe it's a nuance thing?

 

[TerragonSix]

Interesting topic.

As said before there are certain things that even masochists do not like.

I remember talking to an acquaintance, he said he used to use C-Clamps under the arms to this degree. Curiously, I did it to myself *ugh*.

Also, you can change the pain lever. Instead of the usual punishments, you can change it up and try different things to see if you can press the right buttons.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I think part of where punishment dynamics break down for me, is that I don't do punishment. I don't even do punishment with my children; instead we have consequences.

I *totally* understand the need for structure - structure and I are really good friends - but every time "punishment" comes up I go "Huh? "

Maybe it's a nuance thing?

What is the difference between a consequence and a punishment (for adults not children)?

As I see it the very few times I have been punished the only natural consequence was his disappointment. Which, yes made me very unhappy but it wasn't like the punishment that came after. That punishment re-enforced his disappointment and served as reminder of the dynamics of our relationship--he makes the rules, I don't.

 

[ecstaticsub]

As far as how to punish a masochist I would say my more meaningful punishment have been rather creative activities that has sometime to do with what I did wrong. Only once was my punishment physical.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I have to come down mostly on CM's side in this discussion. *Punishment,* per se, doesn't fit my dynamic any more (though it used to - see the How To article under my name).

*Consequences,* on the other hand, certainly do fit my dynamic, and they can be wide-ranging. With a prior masochistic submissive, misbehavior of a specific level led to previously specified consequence: in one instance, getting a speeding ticket when she had been specifically told not to speed driving down resulted in her spending 3 hours of our already-too-short three-day weekend writing down exactly how and why the infraction occurred, the actual and potential RL consequences (actual - fine, points on her license, increased insurance premiums; potential - dangerous driving practices could lead to an accident, injury, death) and what steps she was going to take to ensure it never happened again. So... not only did she lose more time with me than she had saved by driving 96 mph in a 70 zone, she also had to write an acceptable essay detailing the issues involved in that infraction - and since I'm a retired English teacher, it had to be letter-perfect. (Really pissed me off, too, because *I* was suffering the consequences of her action as much as she was! Of course, that was an additional consequence for her, knowing that I was being deprived of 3 hours of her company and not happy about it.)

Other consequences are, as others have said, as individual as the persons involved in the relationships, but can include physical tasks, corporal punishment (for some pyls ), being forced to listen to "It's a Small World" or something by the Hansens for two straight hours , and simply knowing that the PYL is disappointed... as satin, chy and wenchie said, that can reduce the right person to tears all by itself.

 

[TerragonSix]

*Consequences,* on the other hand, certainly do fit my dynamic, and they can be wide-ranging. With a prior masochistic submissive, misbehavior of a specific level led to previously specified consequence: in one instance, getting a speeding ticket when she had been specifically told not to speed driving down resulted in her spending 3 hours of our already-too-short three-day weekend writing down exactly how and why the infraction occurred, the actual and potential RL consequences (actual - fine, points on her license, increased insurance premiums; potential - dangerous driving practices could lead to an accident, injury, death) and what steps she was going to take to ensure it never happened again. So... not only did she lose more time with me than she had saved by driving 96 mph in a 70 zone, she also had to write an acceptable essay detailing the issues involved in that infraction - and since I'm a retired English teacher, it had to be letter-perfect. (Really pissed me off, too, because *I* was suffering the consequences of her action as much as she was! Of course, that was an additional consequence for her, knowing that I was being deprived of 3 hours of her company and not happy about it.)

Other consequences are, as others have said, as individual as the persons involved in the relationships, but can include physical tasks, corporal punishment (for some pyls ), being forced to listen to "It's a Small World" or something by the Hansens for two straight hours , and simply knowing that the PYL is disappointed... as satin, chy and wenchie said, that can reduce the right person to tears all by itself.

Very nice on the speeding ticket essay, clever as well.

However, is a person would be truly masochistic, wouldn't they purposefully have grammatical errors and such, knowing you would notice? What do you do then?

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Very nice on the speeding ticket essay, clever as well.

However, is a person would be truly masochistic, wouldn't they purposefully have grammatical errors and such, knowing you would notice? What do you do then?

Errors could only be corrected by re-writing the entire essay. *That* kind of pain wasn't in her preferred catalog.

 

[ownedsubgal]

a physical punishment can be very effective even for the most hardcore of masochists. because it's not about the physical sensation, it's about the agony and shame of disappointing/frustrating/upsetting the one you serve and love. now if you don't have such a deep emotional connection with the submissive/s you are punishing, then i think the whole idea of a punishment becomes rather pointless. but trust me, if this is a submissive who cares at all about you, who wants to please you and truly shine under you, under the cloud of your disappointment the mildest little smack on the bum is going to sting like fire.

 

[Netzach]

How well do you know this person? How well do you understand what she likes/love, dislikes/hates, etc?

FTW.

I tend to operate like CM does with this, but to be certain if I want to do real punishment/catharsis with someone not "ha ha punished" you can bet I know this already prior to any transgressions coming up. S/he knows the expectations, and how to "get an A" as it were, I know what s/he dislikes enough to wield it.

 

[YourCaptor]

You can broadly define punishment into two types. Adding something unpleasant, or taking something pleasant away.

Ideal punishment should also be memorable and should directly follow the undesirable behavior.

Hence usually a smack works perfect.

With a maso you may have to go for something less perfect, though I’ve found at least some can distinguish between “playing with my toy” smacks, and “don’t do that” smacks.

You could try snappy fingers, or grab her and force her to look and watch you express disapproval, or make her watch you punish an innocent third party for her mistakes, or abruptly stop that activity, and say you don’t like it when she ____, and move on to a different activity.

Or you could put them in a situation that makes it impossible to do whatever bad it is they do. Handcuffs, they rock.

 

[seela]

We don't really do any punishments anymore, but they were a part of our relationship for some time in the beginning of it. I'm not a masochist, but the punishments didn't for the most part have anything to do with pain.

We, too, did the essay thing SW told about. Other punishments included going to jogging, no TV or internet for a certain period of time, canceling something we had planned and I was looking forward to.

But in hindsight I see (some of) these more as a form of play than punishments even if I seriously hated them when they happened, probably because the concept of punishments has become somewhat foreign to me. These days we deal with things very much like CM described. If I screw up, there is no immediate punishment, but the consequence is that the fun (not necessarily sexy kinda fun, but fun in general) ends there. We talk about the situation, I apologize and we move on to something else.

 

[rida]

How to punish a masochist: with an activity she/he does not enjoy. That could be writing an essay (like SirWinston did), or picking from a list of unpleasant activities (like chy_girl). No matter how masochist, there is going to be something she/he does not like.

One of the masochists the Sadist was with hated wire coat hangers, and another hated cold showers.

Personally, as I'm not a masochist, pain does not work as a punishment, as it is part of being with a Sadist, so it does not really make much difference for me if it is dished for his pleasure or for my punishment, as I do not enjoy either anyway (although there is some pain that I hate above and beyond any, and that is the one that Hubby uses as punishing consequence for a very specific infraction*). Of course the emotional and mental element of having displeased him is going to weight differently.

As for the "silent treatment", I can see it implemented as a sort of "time out", where the pyl is given time/space away from the PYL do think about what she did wrong, rather than a "I'm ignoring you until I change my mind" thing. Still I think it is better if it is something that has been agreed upon in advance, as it can be a tricky and dangerous thing, depending on the masochist's emotional response to it.

Aaaand why exactly is punishment necessary? What ever happened to dealing with things by having a rational adult conversation, and reaching an adult agreement about whatever transgression occured... Like grown ups or something?

*Hubby's punishment is something we arrived to as an adult agreement.
It has to do with the fact that Hubby and the Sadist have a totally opposite requirement when it comes to my pubic hair. As I cannot totally please one without totally displeasing the other, and simply telling the Sadist to suck it up is something I do not want to do, I'm keeping it trimmed to a compromise length. However if it happens to be too short for Hubby's taste or mood of the day, then the agreed punishment is implemented.

Punishment, intended as unpleasant consequence for a mistake/breaking a rule/displeasing the PYL is something I do not like but can understand within a power dynamic. However punishment dished out for failing something is much harder for me to swallow, especially if I have done my best. But then again, as the Sadist once put it: "sometime your best is not good enough", and having accepted the way the power lies between us, it is what it is.

 

[Ravenwind]

The one torture no masochist can find pleasure in: the lack of it. ^_^

On a more serious note, as said before, if there is any sort of emotional bond, the biggest thing would be disappointment... there is nothing so heartbreaking as knowing you've let the one you love/serve/whatever down. There is no whip, no flame, no blade more painful than hearing words like, "I'm disappointed in you. You let me down. I thought you were better than that"... when the potential for redemption through change is offered, disappointment becomes an even more powerful tool, I think.

If there is no bond... well, everyone has *something* they don't like... make 'em eat broccoli, or listen to country music for 24 hours non-stop, or watch Real Housewives, or something. Pain as discipline need not be corporeal- mental, emotional, and spiritual are all oft-overlooked methods, imho.

 

[BrightlyGo]

'Punishment' can just be part of the game. Your sub could be testing limits, provoking you to see what you'll do. As she's a masochist, she might learn that certain sorts of misbehavior get her a 'punishment' she likes. She might be trying to figure out how to manipulate you and seize some sort of control over they dynamic of your relationship. She might misbehave as a way of asking for a session.

Establishing trust and keeping communication open and honest is key in any relationship, even power-exchanges.

Anyway, each person is different, and as you get to know her, you'll figure out the things that really make her feel propperly chastized.