Punishing masochists

[neci]

In my opinion, that whole "silent treatment" thing is complete and utter bullshit.

i understand the need for a quiet space when someone is upset, but i don't like the way it feels when you're the one being ignored. there is nothing worse than falling asleep while crying on the couch. if he is genuinely in need of space, that's cool, but i'm not going to take on some kind of passive aggressive form of punishment. been there, done that. not willing to play that game anymore.

 

[Netzach]

Extremely effective if she likes your cock.

She fucks up: she has to re-earn your cock with sincere apology and demonstrated seriousness about not repeating it.

It's not ignoring her. It requires some discipline on your part. But it's very effective.

 

[neci]

Extremely effective if she likes your cock.

She fucks up: she has to re-earn your cock with sincere apology and demonstrated seriousness about not repeating it.

It's not ignoring her. It requires some discipline on your part. But it's very effective.

^^^this is so true.
if she craves cum, jack off in front of her face, but don't let her touch or lick.


for the most part, an adult discussion over what happened is what i prefer. like many people have already stated here and in other threads, i'm my own worst enemy. that's not a challenge. it's just the truth. failure to live up to an expectation placed upon me is hard enough. i would rather know how to fix the situation and reevaluate expectations as a couple, than have some random punishment and silent treatment.

 

[Cattypuss]

Mistersir, I think there is a difference between a PYL hitting me hard in play and the same PYL hitting me with the same force as punishment.

It's all in the mindset - his and mine.

 

[chy_girl]

'Punishment' can just be part of the game. Your sub could be testing limits, provoking you to see what you'll do. As she's a masochist, she might learn that certain sorts of misbehavior get her a 'punishment' she likes. She might be trying to figure out how to manipulate you and seize some sort of control over they dynamic of your relationship. She might misbehave as a way of asking for a session.

Establishing trust and keeping communication open and honest is key in any relationship, even power-exchanges.

Anyway, each person is different, and as you get to know her, you'll figure out the things that really make her feel propperly chastized.

Punishment (or a consequence for inappropriate behavior) is never a game. Not for me and not for a number of submissives I know.

In my experience, any "testing of limits" - that's an emotional yank of the chain. That means my PYL needed to Dom-up a bit because I was feeling to unmoored. Funny thing, though, once my PYL's and I started to discuss my acting out we figured out what the problem was. I was able to identify the feeling when it started to occur, communicate my need as a submissive and receive what I needed. All without the emotional meltdown of my acting out.

As for searching out a punishment because the pyl is a masochist... I'd hope that most PYLs would be able to put two and two together and come up with four relatively soon. And MisterSir's question was asked specifically because he knows "traditional" consequences don't necessarily work with masochists/heavy bottoms.

As for a pyl trying to seize control over the relationship dynamic... If I'm hearing what you're saying correctly then there's a much bigger issue than a pyl with some... misplaced spirit. What you're talking about has the distinct flavor of topping from the bottom only worse. Even as a pyl, that would be the kiss of death for my D/s relationship. A little sammy is one thing. Trying to take over control the D/s dynamic... Nope. I'm done.

And poor behavior as a way of asking for a scene... Act like a grown up and try verbalizing one's needs. That's very much in the passive aggressive bullshit category and indicates problems a whole hell of a lot bigger than wanting to be cute and shy and get the spanking you want without asking for it.

That's just my opinion that's based on my experience though. Maybe it'd work for other people.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Very nice on the speeding ticket essay, clever as well.

However, is a person would be truly masochistic, wouldn't they purposefully have grammatical errors and such, knowing you would notice? What do you do then?

I rather doubt a 'truly masochistic' person would want to deliberately incite further upset from their PYL just to get something *they* wanted.

 

[satindesire]

Ignoring me will get you on my "do not fuck" list real quick.

I'm heavily service oriented, so all I need is the knowledge that he's upset and I'm already devistated. And when I'm in this mind set, things we normally do for fun feel...well they feel different. Or at least, my body reacts differently. So where I normally would be able to do 30 mins sitting on the tack board and not bat an eye, tell me you're disapointed and I'm getting 10 mins as punishment and I'm sobbing rivers.

For serious transgresions, he pulls something out from my "seriously, you want me to do what?" list. Mostly humiliation things, things I really don't find exciting, but he enjoys.

But punishment is really more for him than for my benifit anyway. I don't have a need to feel like I'm trading my suffering for his forgiveness. I punish myself way worse than anything he does when I just think he might be upset.

I don't know if I've not expressed myself well or if you're taking my words farther than they were intended, but I don't mean ignoring a sub for a day (or two, or three, or whatever). I'm talking about telling the sub in question to, more or less have a "time out", a "Go to your room for an hour and think about what you've done" sort of thing.

If that would make you put said Dom on the "do not fuck" list, then more power to you, but I think that's a pretty extreme reaction on your part for something that would be rather effective, in my opinion, in regards to punishing a person who liked pain.

 

[neci]

i was thinking that your 'punishment' style would vary depending on whether your sub is an emotional masochist or not. if you're dealing with an emotional masochist, i would be very clear to identify the behavior that is warranting the infraction. base the 'punishment' strictly on the behavior. just a thought.

if s/he does something wrong, make sure you clearly explain what it was that made you feel punishment was warranted. i've gotten 'in trouble' before, and i honestly had no idea what i did to piss him off. after we talked, we realized that we both had parts in the situation. we were able to avoid that situation from happening again.

i have no problem being there to help absorb a bad day, but i need to know the root problem. i need to figure out the root problem is probably more accurate. anger and frustration are part of being human. i feel like part of my role is to allow him to express some of those feelings in a constructive way. as a masochist, i want to take on that energy. i'm hooked on absorbing it and seeing him relax afterward.

it's easy to say don't punish in anger. that's what is taught to parents. i think the same idea should apply to relationships. if you're angry, take a step back. breathe. beating the shit out of an ass or an extended silent treatment may make you feel better, but take care. it's easy to push over the line in anger.

i know i've run off on a tangent, but that's what's floating around in my head this morning.

 

[Netzach]

I don't know if I've not expressed myself well or if you're taking my words farther than they were intended, but I don't mean ignoring a sub for a day (or two, or three, or whatever). I'm talking about telling the sub in question to, more or less have a "time out", a "Go to your room for an hour and think about what you've done" sort of thing.

If that would make you put said Dom on the "do not fuck" list, then more power to you, but I think that's a pretty extreme reaction on your part for something that would be rather effective, in my opinion, in regards to punishing a person who liked pain.

We all have our limits, but I tend to agree.

We don't do punishment but for the sake of argument:

If I didn't know why T wasn't talking to me, I'd call intolerable asshole on him. If I were to hear "I'll talk to you when you actually finish last night's work" or "when you're on time and ready when I arrive" then I know what's up and why and I can't imagine letting it throw me into a relaionship-scale freakout.

 

[JustaSCOUNDREL]

Let me start this with a quick introduction. I am Mike C. and I am a Dominate. I am really, really old both by my own standards and by the standards of most of these boards. I was first introduced to BDSM in the early 1960s and have been involved off and on since.

My slave/wife and I have been together for over 12 years. She is a heavy masochist. She not only cums comes from the pain I give her but she needs it. She cums from other things also but for her to be fully satisfied she needs me to give her pain.

Since we have been together I have only "Punished" her once. Years ago I bought a wide 6" belt about 4' long.

When I punished her I placed her face down on the bed. I told her exactly why she was being punished. I told her she was being punished and this was not play time. I also told her she was not to cum for any reason and if she did I would know.

I doubled the belt and worked her ass and thighs HARD. Between strokes I told her how she had failed to live up to her side of our agreement. I kept reminding her this was punishment and she was not to cum.

In maybe 10 minuted the sheets on the bed were soaked with her tears. When I stopped she begged me to forgive her and I lay down with her and told her she had paid for her error and was forgiven. I also told her nether of us would speak of this again. Punishment is a one time thing. Once it is done it is finished. It is finished. I firmly believe the last point is vitally important. None of this you did this last month, last year or 3 years ago.

That is what worked for me and my slave.

Reading the many replies on this thread finding a one size fits all punishment is kinda like finding the "One TRUE Way of BDSM" There ain't one. You have to find what works for both of you.

TIFWIW

Mike C.

 

[dexwebster]

The accepted wisdom is that punishments . . . should not be pleasant or fun things for the pyl to endure, since the idea seems to be that it should be penance, reminding the pyl that what she did was wrong and that it is a bad thing to do.

To paraphrase Adam Savage, I reject your wisdom and substitute my own!

1) I don't think punishment's role is to serve as a reminder of 'don't do bad things'. I see it generally as a deterrent. It's the follow-through on the threat of 'don't break this rule, or bad things will happen to you.

2) I do think it is penance, and that it's pretty overlooked in that respect, of it being for the pyl more than the PYL. For that person who is their own harshest critic, who will dwell on and feel guilty for an infraction long after their dominant has forgotten about it, it's a means of absolution. It says, "You fucked up, you paid for your mistakes," and mostly importantly, that, "It's okay now." And it can really close the book on that event.

Having a concrete thing for a pyl to do or suffer through in that context is--to me--light-years more effective than the removal of presence/affection (shunning, etc). Telling someone, "You fucked up, so I'm going to go away now," can send a very powerful, very negative message, and can eventually lead to a thought process of "How bad is too bad? What if I do something bad enough to make my PYL leave for good?" and ongoing insecurity about it. Abandonment issues are nobody's friend.

Even for a hardcore masochist, hurts that are not given in the pursuit of pleasure can get a lot less pleasant. I don't, but for people I know who do use corporal punishment, as it were, they sometimes have a particular position or implement reserved only in punishment situations, or some ritual related to it.

 

[satindesire]

Having a concrete thing for a pyl to do or suffer through in that context is--to me--light-years more effective than the removal of presence/affection (shunning, etc). Telling someone, "You fucked up, so I'm going to go away now," can send a very powerful, very negative message, and can eventually lead to a thought process of "How bad is too bad? What if I do something bad enough to make my PYL leave for good?" and ongoing insecurity about it. Abandonment issues are nobody's friend.

I disagree with this, and here's why.

An effective method of disciplinging, or "punishing" children, is the "time out" method. It's not traumatic to a child to the point where they think "If I am bad enough, mommy will send me to my room forever." because the time out method isn't about shunning, it's a teaching tool. I.E. If you love x and are bad, then you have to spend Y amount of time not doing X.

Same thing applies for adults. This isn't a traumatic, cruel shunning, it's not abuse. It's a time out for grown ups.

 

[callinectes2]

Aaaand why exactly is punishment necessary? What ever happened to dealing with things by having a rational adult conversation, and reaching an adult agreement about whatever transgression occured... Like grown ups or something?

That was pretty harsh. Just because their style does not match yours does not mean they are not grown ups.

Some people need to pay a penance to overcome feelings of guilt or anxiety that they really are forgive. In the early days of my relationship I was one of those people. It had nothing to do with immaturity and everything to do with some baggage I had. He helped me shed the baggage and I no longer have the need to pay penance.

 

[dexwebster]

I disagree with this, and here's why.

An effective method of disciplining, or "punishing" children, is the "time out" method. It's not traumatic to a child to the point where they think "If I am bad enough, mommy will send me to my room forever." because the time out method isn't about shunning, it's a teaching tool. I.E. If you love x and are bad, then you have to spend Y amount of time not doing X.

Same thing applies for adults. This isn't a traumatic, cruel shunning, it's not abuse. It's a time out for grown ups.

Eh. Depends on execution. Sometimes it is cruel shunning. "You are banned from doing your preferred activities for a set time because you misbehaved" is not the same thing as "I am withdrawing my affection from you because you misbehaved."

The kid equivalent there is less timeout and more of "If I'm bad mommy storms out of the house. If I'm bad enough, will mommy leave forever?"

 

[DVS]

Give me a masochistic woman to punish and I think I can accomplish the task. It has already been mentioned that there is always something that even the most masochistic person doesn't like. Give me a little time with her, and I'll find it. No brag, just fact.

I don't see punishment as a necessity for some broken rule. Like CutieMouse, I see my partner as an adult and consider communication between two adults as the way to resolve issues. I see the word punishment as a time when I can have my fun. I see punishment as playtime for me to inflict pain, torment, humiliation, and suffering. For some hapless woman to be givien to me for this fun, what can I say but thank you?

 

[rida]

Give me a masochistic woman to punish and I think I can accomplish the task. It has already been mentioned that there is always something that even the most masochistic person doesn't like. Give me a little time with her, and I'll find it. No brag, just fact.

I don't see punishment as a necessity for some broken rule. Like CutieMouse, I see my partner as an adult and consider communication between two adults as the way to resolve issues. I see the word punishment as a time when I can have my fun. I see punishment as playtime for me to inflict pain, torment, humiliation, and suffering. For some hapless woman to be givien to me for this fun, what can I say but thank you?

Personally I do not like the use of the word punishment for what you describe in bold. I'd rather call it for what it is: the PYL exercising his right to do as he pleases (including torture for the sake of it).

In my dynamic the PYL has the right to the above simply because he is the PYL and I'm the pyl. I would actually hate it if the PYL had to come up with some supposedly infraction to feel he can have his fun.

But then again it might be because I'm not a masochist and the concept of enjoyable pain is totally foreign to me. And the concept that the PYL is going to do anythings because I enjoy it, even farther away.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Personally I do not like the use of the word punishment for what you describe in bold. I'd rather call it for what it is: the PYL exercising his right to do as he pleases (including torture for the sake of it).

In my dynamic the PYL has the right to the above simply because he is the PYL and I'm the pyl. I would actually hate it if the PYL had to come up with some supposedly infraction to feel he can have his fun.

But then again it might be because I'm not a masochist and the concept of enjoyable pain is totally foreign to me. And the concept that the PYL is going to do anythings because I enjoy it, even farther away.

This.

The word 'punishment' used as a cop out is the worst kind of headfuck here. It's caused a few arguments for me and Mr, but he's getting far better at just giving himself permission to do as he pleases, and not need that buffer of an excuse, a 'punishment'.

 

[DVS]

Personally I do not like the use of the word punishment for what you describe in bold. I'd rather call it for what it is: the PYL exercising his right to do as he pleases (including torture for the sake of it).

In my dynamic the PYL has the right to the above simply because he is the PYL and I'm the pyl. I would actually hate it if the PYL had to come up with some supposedly infraction to feel he can have his fun.

But then again it might be because I'm not a masochist and the concept of enjoyable pain is totally foreign to me. And the concept that the PYL is going to do anythings because I enjoy it, even farther away.

This.

The word 'punishment' used as a cop out is the worst kind of headfuck here. It's caused a few arguments for me and Mr, but he's getting far better at just giving himself permission to do as he pleases, and not need that buffer of an excuse, a 'punishment'.

You don't have to call it punishment if you don't want to. Call it what you want if the word usage bothers you. And when I'm having my fun, I'll call it what I want.

 

[rida]

You don't have to call it punishment if you don't want to. Call it what you want if the word usage bothers you. And when I'm having my fun, I'll call it what I want.

Fair enough!

 

[Adakgirl]

If I cross a clearly defined line, break a strict rule, don't do what I have been told to do, unless there is some misunderstanding on my part, I know exactly what I am doing. I know damned well that I am crossing that line, not doing what I am supposed to do, breaking the rules. I am making a choice to disobey, and in doing so, to disrespect.

It's is not the same as fucking up, messing up, screwing something up.

It's a choice I made and no matter how long and hard I am lectured or how thoroughly the matter is discussed , if I do not have to pay some kind of price, suffer some kind of consequences for making that choice. I will at sometime, someplace, in some way, make a choice like that again. If I must pay a price, face a hard consequence, I learn the lesson and it sticks like glue. That's just the way I am, that's the way I learn. Call it immature, call it lame, call it what you wish.

I will eventually consider you weak, if you don't enforce your rules with me, when it counts. It counts if I make a decision to disobey. Period.

 

[Teaser_Girl]

You really should be careful with ignoring.
I had a Dom that used it as punishment... for me, it causes an instant wall to go up. And for me, breaking the wall down is almost impossible.