Opening a can of worms" Selena Kitt Banned on Amazon...

[amicus]

Those were the key words in my search on Google: Selena Kitt banned on Amazon...you will find much to read.

http://theselfpublishingrevolution.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazon-in-book-banning-business.html

...is but one...

My last quarterly royalties from Excessica were over $400.00, not a lot of money, but sufficient to give my grandkids a little more of a Christmas gift than I thought possible...so...thank you, Selena Kitt, and Excessica.

But I did not explore Selena's problems with Amazon, perhaps I should have, until I noticed that my three titles with Excessica had been pulled from Excessica and from most of the major ebook distributors...and then, I took an interest.

Selena's books in the Incest category were the ones pulled and banned, and since I have a book in that category, "I'm a Girl" both rape and incest, I thought perhaps the broad brush of censorship had swept me aside as well.

I have sent three separate emails to 'Excessica', & Selena Kitt, asking why I was dropped from her authors list and my three titles removed from all the distributors, and I am sad to say, I received no return email, no explanation, and no reason as to why my contributions were eliminated.

I was invited to join Excessica, by Selena, who specifically asked to publish my, "I'm a Girl" story, which I was pleased, honored and happy to comply with.

After two weeks of queries, and lost income because my books are not being distributed, I have decided to sever my connection with Excessica and have contracted with Smashwords, who has picked up all my backlist and offered an open lane to new submissions.

I regret to announce that in this manner, but after weeks of trying to communicate with Excessica and Selena Kitt, and receiving not a single reply, I had to make a decision and I did.

I extend my sincere gratitude to Selena and her magnificent effort to create a publishing company which seemed to be very successful. I truly regret the difficult times you must be suffering and I wish you nothing but the best in your battle to overcome censorship; I went through one myself, right here in River City.

I wish you all the best and hope you will do the same for me as I attempt to rebuild the network of distributors that you so painstakenly created.

regards...

Amicus...

 

[Bebeslut]

Weird you got published there at all. I seem to remember reading in eXcessica's writers' guidelines that they didn't accept incest stories at all, which is why I blew them off. Or maybe they didn't like my submissions...been a while.
Most, if not all, of the ebook and online publishers prohibit incest stories, I found in researching the topic.

 

[JT_Stone]

Me too *folds arms and stomps foot*

Yeah, I got dumped by Amazon too.

However...

I'm going to start a BannedByAmazon or TooHotForAmazon site and sell our naughty little titles there.

Please send me a PM if you'd like your titles to be included.

JT

 

[FallingToFly]

Oh no.

I'm working on Ties That Bind right now- which I suppose could be loosely considered Incest, as it deals with stepbrothers falling in love. I was absolutely planning on submitting it to eXcessica.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh no.

I'm working on Ties That Bind right now- which I suppose could be loosely considered Incest, as it deals with stepbrothers falling in love. I was absolutely planning on submitting it to eXcessica.

Amazon has plenty of eXcessia titles in stock;
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n:133140011,k:excessica&page=1

If your story is step brothers, it isn't incest-- and we could have a lot of fun tweaking the publisher's blurb so it doesn't start the Amazon alarm bells...

 

[amicus]

Overall and in general, I have a curosity about why this kind of censorship seems to be on the rise in several different places. I doubt there is an objective answer, but perhaps one can cause no harm by merely asking the questions.

I just heard on MSNBC that "Tom Sawyer" and "Huckleberry Finn" are being 'revised' to be more politically correct for modern young readers by eliminating the 'N' word, (see, I even did it), and by changing the content of the books to reflect a kinder, more gentle approach to race issues.

I also do not understand what is driving such large entities as Amazon, to exercise censorship when we live in a very 'Liberal' age and practically anything is acceptable. "Lolita" is tame compared to "16 and Pregnant", a regular television show and, "The Pregnancy Pact", also acceptable fare for the viewing public.

I don't like censorship of any kind, anywhere or for any reason; I just don't like being told what I can and cannot write or do or think and express in anyway I choose.

I shared an email recently that called me 'arrogant', I have been called that a hundred times at least on this forum and elsewhere; I even have an irate reader on another site criticizing me because I was 'arrogant' in presenting the case for POD and Ebook as sounding the deathknell for traditional publishing, paper books and libraries.

I suggest that a certain amount of hubris, arrogance, is required for any person to stand up and offer his songs or writings to any and all. You walk on a stage before ten thousand people and if you don't have massive self confidence, you may as well never make that walk.

I lost a job I loved very much long ago, at a radio station in Honolulu, when I played a song, "Growin' your own", that the station manager had forbidden me to play...I played it anyway...and got fired.

I am also called a 'hypocrite' for defending private property, which the radio station and the Tea Party website was, and then complaining when the 'private' ownership set rules. I accept no rules from any agency that limits my right to free speech. One cannot violate ones' core values and maintain any integrity of character, and free speech is one of those values.

I applaud Selena Kitt for maintaining her values regardless of the price to be paid and I urge each and all of you to promote the concept of free speech, in all the arts and in every aspect of your life.

Every human endeavor is interconnected with every other, thus, art, literature, philosophy, political science, medicine and social norms must always be open for free discussion and challenge. Forbid, ban, censor, control or regulate any of those links and all others suffer.

I love Literotica because this site cherishes freedom of speech and expression, and I am honor to participate here.

Amicus

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's "on the rise" because Amazon is a really really bog company now, the way Sears was back in the day, and it wants to avoid useless controversy in order to maximise profits.

Incest fiction is a useless controversy to Amazon. It doesn't make enough money off of the incest titles to make it worthwhile bucking public opinion on the subject.

As always, Amicus expresses that typically truncated understanding of what "censorship" really is;

I am also called a 'hypocrite' for defending private property, which the radio station and the Tea Party website was, and then complaining when the 'private' ownership set rules. I accept no rules from any agency that limits my right to free speech. One cannot violate ones' core values and maintain any integrity of character, and free speech is one of those values.

Too funny!

 

[Dixiedevil67]

Damn. I know Stokie Lee was having trouble with Amazon over one of the book covers I created for him. It actually showed some nudity. Can you imagine? An erotic book with a cover showing some nudity? But, just the other day, I noticed the cover in question displayed on Amazon. I thought they may be coming down from their over reaction period. Guess not.

Yeah, I got dumped by Amazon too.

However...

I'm going to start a BannedByAmazon or TooHotForAmazon site and sell our naughty little titles there.

Please send me a PM if you'd like your titles to be included.

JT

 

[soflabbwlvr]

It's "on the rise" because Amazon is a really really bog company now, the way Sears was back in the day, and it wants to avoid useless controversy in order to maximise profits.

Incest fiction is a useless controversy to Amazon. It doesn't make enough money off of the incest titles to make it worthwhile bucking public opinion on the subject.

As always, Amicus expresses that typically truncated understanding of what "censorship" really is;

Too funny!

Way to hit the nail on the head, Stella. It's the free market at work. Amicus, of all people, should appreciate that. Amazon isn't going to risk millions of dollars of sales in order to move a few units of controversial material. The first amendment only applies to government, not private enterprise.

 

[michchick98]

Weird you got published there at all. I seem to remember reading in eXcessica's writers' guidelines that they didn't accept incest stories at all, which is why I blew them off. Or maybe they didn't like my submissions...been a while.
Most, if not all, of the ebook and online publishers prohibit incest stories, I found in researching the topic.

Okay, that highlighted line baffles me because Excessica was one of the few (if not the only) publishers who DID accept incest stories. Perhaps you read it wrong?

One of the things I always remember Selena saying was that Excessica accepted work others wouldn't.

Oh no.

I'm working on Ties That Bind right now- which I suppose could be loosely considered Incest, as it deals with stepbrothers falling in love. I was absolutely planning on submitting it to eXcessica.

Excessica is closed for submissions right now, even for in-house authors. But you could probably contact Selena through Excessica's website and find out when she'll start accepting new authors and submissions again.

 

[FallingToFly]

I guess I'd be considered in-house, as I participated in the Focus anthology. But I know, realistically, TTB is 6 months or more away from completion. I suppose if I have to I'll release it myself.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Way to hit the nail on the head, Stella. It's the free market at work. Amicus, of all people, should appreciate that. Amazon isn't going to risk millions of dollars of sales in order to move a few units of controversial material. The first amendment only applies to government, not private enterprise.

I notice that I mistyped; "bog company" instead of "Big company"... appropriate somehow, isn't it?

 

[sr71plt]

Selena answered e-mail from me within the last couple of weeks. My latest eXcessica book launched last Saturday, and I have book launches from eXcessica scheduled every three weeks about until October (Submitting the last one and having it accepted not more than a month ago). But then I don't write incest.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

It's "on the rise" because Amazon is a really really bog company now, the way Sears was back in the day, and it wants to avoid useless controversy in order to maximise profits.

Incest fiction is a useless controversy to Amazon. It doesn't make enough money off of the incest titles to make it worthwhile bucking public opinion on the subject.

Yes, that's about it. Banning incest fiction is no more than a marketing decision Amazon's made in order to help their bottom line. It's Amicus' beloved Free Markets at work, but this time the Invisible Hand is bitch-slapping those authors whose books Amazon feels are giving them a bad name and thus hurting sales.

The erotica market is booming, and more, it's poised on the edge of full mainstream respectability, which would give Amazon a big bump in book sales. Half of all fiction sold in the US is romance, and in the romance field, the fastest-growing segment for the past several years has been sexually explicit romance: i.e. porn. The middle-class female demographic that drives the romance market is all for graphic sex and might be willing to go as far as BDSM, but incest is notoriously unpopular with them (as are unannounced lesbian encounters). Amazon just made the decision that it's better to lose the incest business than risk alienating their main demographic. Decency and definitions of what's acceptable have nothing to do with it, and they couldn't care less about freedom of speech

I'm not a fan of incest myself, and in fact find it actively anti-erotic, but I can still sympathize with the people whose books got yanked. (Today they come for you, tomorrow they come for me. That kind of thing.) Still, I'd hate to be the one trying to justify publishing incest based on the fact that it's only a fantasy and that the public has a right to read about people fucking their sibs/kids/parents. It's going to be a tough sell.

On the other hand, the drive to censor Twain's work is both sillier and more insidious, since it's based on the very dangerous idea of protecting public morality rather than the narrower and more pragmatic one of not offending one's customer base.

And finally, I really have to get in a word of praise and support for Selena, who's worked her ass off to get eXcessica up and running and done more than anyone I can think of to give so many authors a venue for reaching the public. Incest or no, she's a great writer and a terrific friend.

 

[Stella_Omega]

And by the way, the Mark Twain rewrite is not some unilateral decision by some nefarious council of PC...

It's an attempt to sell yet another copy of what has been in public domain for a damn long time. The publishers claim that the books have suffered "preemptive censorship" and are rarely read;

http://www.newsouthbooks.com/pages/...-mark-twains-tom-sawyer-and-huckleberry-finn/

From the introduction to the book;

Through a succession of firsthand experiences, this editor gradually concluded that an epithet-free edition of Twain’s books is necessary today. For nearly forty years I have led college classes, bookstore forums, and library reading groups in detailed discussions of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn in California, Texas, New York, and Alabama, and I always recoiled from uttering the racial slurs spoken by numerous characters, including Tom and Huck. I invariably substituted the word “slave” for Twain’s ubiquitous n-word whenever I read any passages aloud. Students and audience members seemed to prefer this expedient, and I could detect a visible sense of relief each time, as though a nagging problem with the text had been addressed. Indeed, numerous communities currently ban Huckleberry Finn as required reading in public schools owing to its offensive racial language and have quietly moved the title to voluntary reading lists. The American Library Association lists the novel as one of the most frequently challenged books across the nation.

Over the years I have noted valiant and judicious defenses of the prevalence of the n-word in Twain’s Huckleberry Finn as proposed by eminent writers, editors, and scholars, including those of Michael Patrick Hearn, Nat Hentoff, Randall Kennedy, and Jocelyn Chadwick-Joshua. Hearn, for example, correctly notes that “Huck says it out of habit, not malice” (22). Apologists quite validly encourage readers to intuit the irony behind Huck’s ignorance and to focus instead on Twain’s larger satiric goals. Nonetheless, Langston Hughes made a forceful, lasting argument for omitting this incendiary word from all literature, from however well-intentioned an author. “Ironically or seriously, of necessity for the sake of realism, or impishly for the sake of comedy, it doesn’t matter,” explained Hughes. African Americans, Hughes wrote, “do not like it in any book or play whatsoever, be the book or play ever so sympathetic. . . . They still do not like it” (268–269).

During the 1980s, educator John H. Wallace unleashed a fierce and protracted dispute by denouncing Huckleberry Finn as “the most grotesque example of racist trash ever written.” In 1984 I had to walk past a picket line of African American parents outside a scholarly conference in Pennsylvania that was commemorating, among other achievements in American humor, the upcoming centenary anniversary of Twain’s Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. James S. Leonard, then the editor of the newsletter for the Mark Twain Circle of America, conceded in 2001 that the racist language and unflattering stereotypes of slaves in Huckleberry Finn can constitute “real problems” in certain classroom settings. Another scholar, Jonathan Arac, has urged that students be prompted to read other, more unequivocally abolitionist works rather than this one novel that has been consecrated as the mandatory literary statement about American slavery. The once-incontestable belief that the reading of this book at multiple levels of schooling ought to be essential for every American citizen’s education is cracking around the edges.

http://www.newsouthbooks.com/twain/...m-sawyer-huckleberry-finn-newsouth-books.html

Of course, you don't have to agree with this publisher. You don't have to buy their version. You will never be forced to buy it. I'm seeing plenty of original copies available in libraries etc, and this is just one more copy.

 

[sr71plt]

EXcessica is supposed to be a coop arrangement. The authors represented there were supposed to help the whole group somehow. Perhaps if someone was dropped by eXcessica it was because they weren't doing anything for eXcessica.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Thread title needs fixing:

Opening a can of worms. Some of Selena Kitt's books banned on Amazon

There we go.

It's a can that needed opening. Amazon seem a bit vague on what is and isn't acceptable. Seems mainly on a 'wait until someone complains' at the moment. Personally I'd prefer it if they drew a clear line in the sand on what is and isn't acceptable. Excessica does. This site does.

Something like:

For books in the Erotica category:
- No sexual situations featuring characters under the age of 18
- No bestiality (fantastic creatures exempt)
- No necrophilia (fantastic creatures exempt)
- No Incest

This way both readers and writers would know where they stand.

Under Amazon's current system I think the 'ban-it!' brigade will keep moving from hot-button topic to hot-button topic until they've heavily eroded what's available.

I'd also like to add I've had no problems dealing with either Selena Kitt or Excessica. From what I gather, 2011 is completely filled. I imagine Selena will open up for submissions again when she wants to start filling 2012 (I hope anyway!).

 

[WRJames]

My Eden series is out on Amazon with raunchy covers and some incest. Not that they have ever sold a lick there.

As I mentioned in another thread which seems to have vanished, one reason I submitted to Club Lighthouse Publishing in the first place was because they didn't list so many restrictions on "acceptable" erotic content.

 

[amicus]

]Thread title needs fixing:

Opening a can of worms. Some of Selena Kitt's books banned on Amazon

There we go.

It's a can that needed opening. Amazon seem a bit vague on what is and isn't acceptable. Seems mainly on a 'wait until someone complains' at the moment. Personally I'd prefer it if they drew a clear line in the sand on what is and isn't acceptable. Excessica does. This site does.

Something like:

For books in the Erotica category:
- No sexual situations featuring characters under the age of 18
- No bestiality (fantastic creatures exempt)
- No necrophilia (fantastic creatures exempt)
- No Incest

This way both readers and writers would know where they stand.

Under Amazon's current system I think the 'ban-it!' brigade will keep moving from hot-button topic to hot-button topic until they've heavily eroded what's available.

I'd also like to add I've had no problems dealing with either Selena Kitt or Excessica. From what I gather, 2011 is completely filled. I imagine Selena will open up for submissions again when she wants to start filling 2012 (I hope anyway!).[/[/I]QUOTE]

~~~

As I recall, I lifted the Thread Title from an article that turned up in my search, and I did that to emphasize that I didn't create the title as a 'gotcha!' visual.

It is a discussion that should be had, to confirm manyeyedhydra's assertion, but I don't like the way the conversation is going for the most part.

Once you make a list of things you cannot write about or publish, others will add their own particular dislike, and as Mabeuse said, I think, it will only grow and grow.

I have only one incest story out of hundreds, and as I mentioned earlier, Selena specifically asked me to submit the story to Excessica, which I did. I also donated two or three stories to the Excessica Anthologies.

To my knowledge Amazon is a distributor, or at least is best known as that, and as such, I offer, does, of course, have control over what it offers and what it does not. I wonder which word of the phrase, 'free market', som people don't understand. Perhaps 'supply and demand', might better describe the market place, with the customer fueling the demand.

What triggers my reflex is when any private business begins to adjust its values due to pressure outside the buyer/seller concept of the market place.

An interesting sideline...as I was searching through the many distributors for Romance Novels, which is mainly what I write, I discovered the statistic the 90 percent of those buying romance ebooks, are women...only 10 percent men; I thought I had read, years ago, that women made up only 60 percent of the market....guess things have changed? But then, if one knows one is writing for the female audience....well...

I particularly do not appreciate the 'over 18' age limitation that is a rule at Literotica. In the real world, believe it or not, both boys and girls under age 18 actually fall in love and may even have sex! Hope that didn't knock you on your fanny to learn that.

What I point out by that, is that everyone who publishes here, accepts that rule and the chilling effect it has on those who might want to write of young love as it really is, not as the censors determine it to be.

Manyeyedhydra, if memory serves, Miscegenation was once a law, one against the interbreeding of races...what if that category were banned by Amazon?

And once you start adding to the list...?

It might be helpful to inform Amazon and any other entity that freedom of the press is essential.

Amicus

 

[WRJames]

Apple is also randomly prissy on what it will accept for iPhone.

 

[sr71plt]

You can't have your philosophy both ways, Amicus. Free enterprise has kicked you personally in the butt. If it was someone else being kicked, you wouldn't give a shit.

The question of why you have gotten no response from eXcessica over pulling your books without notification, though, is a legitimate one.

 

[sr71plt]

The bottom line, Amicus, is that both eXcessica and Amazon.com are private enterprises. Each has the privilege of not carrying anything they don't want to carry. And in any case that doesn't inconvenience you, you would support (and have supported) the private enterprise over the individual.

Free speech isn't making either of these carry your books. Free speech is you having the right to self-publish and sell it on the street corners yourself if no one else wants to handle it--and to be arrested if what you are "speeching" happens to be against the law (like the recent pedophile selling his "how to" books interstate).

This isn't a first time with you and eXcessica and distributor problems. Months ago Fictionwise closed down all eXcessica books on its distribution site because of your books and Selena managed to get them back up. Your incest works caused the rest of us to lose our distribution there until Selena got it fixed (So, yay Selena). So, you've been living on borrowed time. She probably saw the writing on the wall this time and dropped yours so that her 100 plus other authors didn't get hurt as well. Probably a good move on her part (although I think you should have been notified).

At least Amazon is going after the specific genre it doesn't want to cover rather than making those suffer who aren't writing the offending genre(s). Yes, it might eventually branch out on what it won't carry. And that would be too bad for others affected. But it would be Amazon's free enterprise privilege to do so. And that has nothing to do with your free speech.

 

[amicus]

Considering the source, and that I was never informed of such, there is a quantum of irony involved here that some might find amusing.

My stories are probably to most mild mannered of all the authors on Excessica, the most traditional and conventional, a lot of plot and character development and sex scenes only as are necessary to tie a knot on the story.

The story in question, "I'm a Girl" is still posted on Literotica; you might want to read it to better understand the heart wrenching details that compelled one Lit editor to say the story was too intense for her to complete editing.

Incest is not the theme of the story, nor is the brutal rape scene that devastated a young lady. It is an attempt to psychologically salvage the destroyed esteem and libido of the victim.

Another curious thing about this particular story; due to a computer glitch, I lost over 10,000 words and it was nearly six months before I could bring myself to attempt a re-write, as the story is so damned intimate wherein every word, every scene change, every nuance is essential to keep the reader accepting a set aside of reality and maintain congruity of thought and action to maintain the fictional status.

I have personal knowledge of a rape victim and it was her pain and suffering in trying to recover that inspired this effort to see beyond the incident and keep on living.

I have been told it is an intense and believable account, especially told from the female POV, when in fact my personal character is one of an unaplogetic Type A male chauvinist pig.

Still, the irony is delicious, that mild mannered Amicus, more of Hallmark writer than anything else, has created such a stir, if indeed I did.

I also don't put it past you being instrumental in filing complaints against the story, which caused the problem in the first place. But then, we ill never know that, now will we?

If anyone does choose to read the story and has a comment, I would prefer a PM instead of posting it here or on the story itself.

I remain:

Amicus Veritas

 

[sr71plt]

Let's see, a story that's both mild mannered and too intense for the Lit. editor to complete the edit of.

Yep, that's our Ami.

No, of course I haven't complained about any of your stories. I haven't read any. Reading the blurbs was enough to tell me what they were. I didn't even complain to anyone when you got all the rest of the eXcesica author's works knocked off Fictionwise for a while. I just took reality as it was.

You're the self-centered crybaby here.

 

[amicus]

Not that anything is gained from an exchange with you, but others may have their thoughts confirmed.

In that you have never read any of my stories and yet accuse me of writing underage, pedophile stories, one might inquire as to how you determine this, without havng read anything?

You haven't read, "I'm a Girl", yet you have formed an opinion about it, how?

Selena read and even edited the story and chose to publish it because it held some value to her and to excessica...?

There is something else you should know and appreciate, but apparently do not; and that is that writers always push the envelope of what is accepted and reach for things beyond the common place. It is not my place to compare, "I'm a Girl", with Lolita, or Lady Chatterly's Lover, both of which were banned and scorned because an author dared write beyond the pale.

Far from feeling disappointed at the furor over this story, I am heartened that something I wrote has disturbed the status quo to such an extent that a major distributor, Amazon, decided to exert pressure to ban, prohibit or censor my writings. I suspect Selena, who told me this herself, that I was not the only one who wrote in this genre and that she herself was fighting the same battle.

So...it is to Selena that I give credit, if credit is due anywhere, to challenging the stiff necked self appointed censors of the literary world.

Fuck them and fuck you too!

Amicus Veritas