What do you think of this?

[SweetErika]

I was listening to the BBC World Newshour today and was rather shocked to hear the results of a new survey regarding attitudes on rape/sexual assault. Here's the rundown of findings from this article, and here's the actual survey report summary:

• Almost half of young men in London don't think sex with a woman who is too drunk to know what is going on is rape.

• 46% of 18 to 25-year-old males don't consider it rape if the woman changes her mind during sex (she says something like "no" or "stop" and the person she's with doesn't stop).

• 23% of young men believe it isn't rape, even if the person has said "no" to sex from the very start.

What do you think about these attitudes?

Were you educated on issues of consent, when something becomes sexual assault, etc.?

What could be done to educate, change minds, and hopefully actions?

Poll to follow, and any related discussion is welcome.

 

[fuckmeat]

Opinion Matters surveyed a random sample of 1061 people in London aged 18 to 50 online.
The sample includes 349 men, 712 women, 213 aged 18 to 24, 386 aged 25 to 34 and 462
aged 35 to 50. The sample also included 922 heterosexual, 71 homosexual, 52 bisexual and
16 asexual respondents.

16 asexuals in a random poll of 1061 people aged 18-50 online? I don't think so. Plus, half those polled should have been female and their views would have (in general) been different.

I'm British and I don't think it's an accurate portrayal of young people's beliefs, based on my actual interaction with young people. They polled something like 1061 people from all age groups and I don't know where they found them. I think the internet and porn are definitely desensitising young men and giving them unrealistic expectations about sex but I really find it hard to believe that huge percentages of them have no clue about consent. Plus, the survey makes few differentiations between sexual assault and rape. People would be less likely to report an assault than rape but the survey mostly lumps two crimes of very different severity in together. That I think has also affected the results.

I think there's still a culture where young men think a drunk, sluttily dressed woman is 'asking for it' or 'deserves what she gets' and that definitely needs to be addressed. I don't know any guy though, who would think it ok to fuck a woman who was too drunk to consent or enjoy it to some degree.

Young people need more education. It's no good throwing condoms and morning after pills at them and then expecting them to be sensible. Here in the UK, where sexual consent is age 16 and drinking is legal at 18, young people are getting involved in stuff they shouldn't at younger and younger ages. Plus, they generally only respect the wisdom of their peers, which can lead to the 'everybody's doing it' culture of myth and legend that skews teenagers' views of what is normal and acceptable.

I'm not a mother. I have virtually nothing to do with kids so it's easy for me to say that there needs to be education. But it should be education in maturity and moderation, not abstinence or legalised hedonism, as appear to be the current choices for kids today. They're taught how not to get pregnant or HIV but most parents (that I know) are very reluctant to talk about how to form healthy and long lasting romantic relationships. There seems to be a culture whereby we expect them to figure things out on their own. People don't feel able to disapprove of their kid's inappropriate or disrespectful bf or gf. It's one of the last social taboos, like calling someone a bad parent. Seems all ass about face to me, that's all I'm saying.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I do a lot of noncon play and I'll just say that "no" does not always mean "no"....but if you decide to go there, and you make the wrong call, you deserve to go to jail.

On the whole, I'm sure it's better for young men to be istrongly nstilled with the idea that there is a clear and sharp dividing line with no grey areas, and then to learn the truth once they've gained some maturity.

 

[fuckmeat]

I do a lot of noncon play and I'll just say that "no" does not always mean "no"....but if you decide to go there, and you make the wrong call, you deserve to go to jail.

On the whole, I'm sure it's better for young men to be istrongly nstilled with the idea that there is a clear and sharp dividing line with no grey areas, and then to learn the truth once they've gained some maturity.

I do noncon play too but that's not what this is about. Noncon play is a long way removed from the basic fundamentals of legal, consensual sex. It's about personal ethics and the excuses people can hide behind when the devil's on their shoulder. 'We were drunk' just shouldn't be an excuse in this day and age.

It disturbs me greatly that there are average, vanilla guys out there who don't think 'no' means 'no' until they're being physically fought off. And that goes for guys of whatever orientation.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I do noncon play too but that's not what this is about. Noncon play is a long way removed from the basic fundamentals of legal, consensual sex. It's about personal ethics and the excuses people can hide behind when the devil's on their shoulder. 'We were drunk' just shouldn't be an excuse in this day and age.

It disturbs me greatly that there are average, vanilla guys out there who don't think 'no' means 'no' until they're being physically fought off. And that goes for guys of whatever orientation.

All very true.

 

[SweetErika]

16 asexuals in a random poll of 1061 people aged 18-50 online? I don't think so. Plus, half those polled should have been female and their views would have (in general) been different.

I'm British and I don't think it's an accurate portrayal of young people's beliefs, based on my actual interaction with young people. They polled something like 1061 people from all age groups and I don't know where they found them.

Yeah, I definitely have issues with the "research," but I still think it's an interesting topic and the survey is representative of the enormous problem we have with ideas on consent and sexual assault (including rape).

Given the sexual assault statistics, I don't find it hard to believe that a lot of people don't have much of a clue about consent, though. I can't imagine date and acquaintance rape would be so pervasive if we (general) were very clear on the facts that someone can revoke consent at any time and severely impaired consent isn't consent at all.

I don't know any guy though, who would think it ok to fuck a woman who was too drunk to consent or enjoy it to some degree.

Maybe 'she'll probably enjoy it to some degree' is one of the big problems. I'm not sure how it is over there, but here we have a huge problem with rape on college campuses, and a lot of that has to do with substances. Many guys cruise parties and bars looking to pick up women who are too impaired to make any kind of informed decision. I think most of them are aiming for an easier lay, but that's really no excuse.

Granted, I graduated 8 years ago, but in all my time in high school and college, my husband is the only guy I encountered who wouldn't touch me when I was really drunk. I did encounter tons of guys who didn't seem to think twice about it, and many who were very predatory.

I'm not a mother. I have virtually nothing to do with kids so it's easy for me to say that there needs to be education. But it should be education in maturity and moderation, not abstinence or legalised hedonism, as appear to be the current choices for kids today. They're taught how not to get pregnant or HIV but most parents (that I know) are very reluctant to talk about how to form healthy and long lasting romantic relationships. There seems to be a culture whereby we expect them to figure things out on their own. People don't feel able to disapprove of their kid's inappropriate or disrespectful bf or gf. It's one of the last social taboos, like calling someone a bad parent. Seems all ass about face to me, that's all I'm saying.

Agreed.

On the whole, I'm sure it's better for young men to be istrongly nstilled with the idea that there is a clear and sharp dividing line with no grey areas, and then to learn the truth once they've gained some maturity.

What would you tell your son about the dividing line, Rosco?

 

[rosco rathbone]

What would you tell your son about the dividing line, Rosco?

I'd probably stress the black and white nature of the line until I saw that he was old and wise enough to know about the grey areas, then tell him about it in a father son chat.

 

[pplwatching]

Given the sexual assault statistics, I don't find it hard to believe that a lot of people don't have much of a clue about consent, though.

I think that the survey says more about respect and interpersonal relationships than about consent. When a woman says "no" in the heat of the moment, the thing that should really be putting on the brakes is respect for her. In sexual encounters where no respect has developed or been fostered first, there's often a "me first" mentality. " I deserve this" replaces "she doesn't deserve this". A guy (or gal, if we don't want to be biased) can rationalize ignoring "stop" in a thousand ways, but it becomes much more difficult to do if there's a close relationship and mutual respect in the mix.

Just my $.02.

 

[TypicalDeviant]

As previously stated, if it's non-consensual play, it's a different beast altogether. As for "other beliefs", if one of the involved parties, says "stop" then the other party needs to stop. However, I think people need to be realistic about what's happening/could happen if they say "stop" mid-act and should be prepare to back up their command with force (not violence).

 

[infinity706]

Granted, I graduated 8 years ago, but in all my time in high school and college, my husband is the only guy I encountered who wouldn't touch me when I was really drunk. I did encounter tons of guys who didn't seem to think twice about it, and many who were very predatory.

Honestly, the other problem is that there are women out there that get a little tipsy and fake being drunk so they can get an easy fuck without being called a slut. I've personally pissed off quite a few women because I wouldn't jump their shit and I've even gotten dumped over it.

I do make exceptions for scenes where it's agreed upon in advance that the person wants to get drunk and let me have their way with them when it happens, though. Sure, that's still a bit of a consent issue, but its as close as you can get to drunk, consentual sex.

 

[SweetErika]

As previously stated, if it's non-consensual play, it's a different beast altogether. As for "other beliefs", if one of the involved parties, says "stop" then the other party needs to stop. However, I think people need to be realistic about what's happening/could happen if they say "stop" mid-act and should be prepare to back up their command with force (not violence).

Sometimes "no" or "stop" is all you can get out before freezing. I have nightmares about being in horrific situations and freezing up to the point where I can't even get a scream or word out. And I've lived with years of guilt for not doing more to defend myself while I was being raped because I always thought I'd be forceful and fight back in that kind of situation. But I just couldn't; my body and mind did their own thing in an attempt at self-preservation, I guess.

My point is that it's easy to think and say we should be prepared to back words up with force, but the reality is often very different.

 

[NippleMuncher]

Why not just cut the colloquial crap and games and let the word "NO" actually mean what it means: (Merriam Webster )

1: an act or instance of refusing or denying by the use of the word no : denial <received a firm no in reply>
2: a negative vote or decision​

Instead of focusing on the meaning of "NO", let's focus on the meaning of "YES": (Merriam Webster )

an affirmative reply​

Until someone says "yes", then the only other assumption that should be inferred is an absolute denial of permission. Any trespassing without expressed consent shall be considered rape.

 

[TypicalDeviant]

Sometimes "no" or "stop" is all you can get out before freezing. I have nightmares about being in horrific situations and freezing up to the point where I can't even get a scream or word out. And I've lived with years of guilt for not doing more to defend myself while I was being raped because I always thought I'd be forceful and fight back in that kind of situation. But I just couldn't; my body and mind did their own thing in an attempt at self-preservation, I guess.

My point is that it's easy to think and say we should be prepared to back words up with force, but the reality is often very different.

Yeah, that's true and I'm sorry that such a horrible thing has happened to you. We're all going to react differently to a situation like that. I want to re-emphasize that in no way am I blaming the victim or condoning that horrible behavior - just encouraging people to be situationally-aware.

 

[infinity706]

Hey now, that's a little excessive. Not once has any of my partners actually said yes.