Friendships in D/s

[Marquis]

I think a major issue in my little one and I's relationship was always the awkwardness when I was around her friends. Around my friends, she tended to maintain the kind of composure I expected, but around friends that were just hers she would let out a wild side that they really liked. I know that she enjoyed being in that space and wanted to be able to give that to her... but it was always awkward because whenever I came around I always came across as uptight and weird. I would try to roll with it best I could, but she definitely did not show me the same deference around her friends and quite frankly I never knew quite how to roll with it.

Anyone have any experience with this? How do you deal with it?

 

[YourCaptor]

You can be in control and take a back seat.

She should know your buttons and not to push them.

If she does something that gets you particularly cross, it would be just as awkward if you were nilla.

Some crowds just aren't for you, make the best of it I guess.

 

[fuckmeat]

I could be wrong, but I have a theory.

Her friends pre-date you, so they have known her before she submitted to you. She probably felt more compelled to maintain outward normality or vanillaness around them. Your friends she has only known since you guys got together, so she can be deferential to you because they didn't know her beforehand and won't go 'WTF?' For her to be very deferential to you around her friends could even make them concerned for her, as it's a classic tell for domestic abuse.

Just my thoughts. I read your 'rant' thread but didn't have an insight to offer. I'm sorry this happened to you though, FWIW.

I also don't think there's any harm in agreeing that some of her personal relationships with friends and family will always make her regress a little and shift out of her D/s mindset. It can be healthy to have the occasional recess from submission. If you took your dom hat off you'd maybe feel less awkward and uptight too, just put on your workaday public face for those people.

 

[sardoniclaugh]

It's tricky finding a way to be around vanillas without putting the DS dynamic on hold. Especially situations like this, where it almost feels like your partner does a Jeckyl/Hyde around certain friends. Most of us are multi-faceted, and noone ever sees all of another person. I'm not sure anyone even sees all of themself.

If she's just too wild for you to handle when she's with those friends, don't handle her with them. Just let her have her girls' nights out and take some time for yourself. If she's not being 'submissive' enough for you when she's with them, remember that submission can be subtle.

Think of taking your dog to the park. You could keep her on her leash and make her sit obediently at your feet, but doesn't that kind of make taking her to the park pointless? Let her run around and play and sniff butts and roll in the grass and generally be a dog. It doesn't make her any less your dog.

No, I am not suggesting that subs are dogs, or that women are bitches, or any of that. It is similar, in that it is a relationship based on loyalty, obedience and affection.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

I have to admire your willingness to air your dirty laundry, Marquis.

I can completely relate to this, and I think sardonic has something here. I don't care whether the relationship is D/s, vanilla or something else again: no one can be all things to a person, and forcing things doesn't help.

Everyone needs his or her own space to play, their own interests, activities and friends. Next time bow out and find a buddy of yours to hang out with that night.

 

[sardoniclaugh]

Dan Savage had a somewhat related column a few years ago that seemed relevant to the DS-in-public thing. The first one on this page: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=25851

It's different angle on a similar problem.

 

[Netzach]

Even with my so being a dude, I don't want to raise the red flag of "asshole partner" and so I do whatever it takes to avoid that around his people, whether it's his parents or his old roomie. It's just not worth being the asshole partner, the one who's putting the smackdown on the late hour or where to go. Occasionally this means I'll find myself at some stupid thing with everyone dressed as zombies or something, but basically I roll with it and retreat into "cute wife" as my zombie costume.

 

[ownedsubgal]

this is an issue i can't really imagine as i don't have this whole separate world going on outside of my Master. even with people who knew me many years ago such as relatives (with whom i have minimal contact btw), i have never felt a need to attempt to act as if i'm someone i'm not. and for me, not being deferential and obedient to my Master is absolutely being someone i'm not.

but it really comes down to focus and priorities...he is my priority, and being his is my focus. any and everything else...people included...take a deep backseat to that. my world, my life, is the one he has created for me and permitted me to have. i never had to think how to fit him into my world, because he made my world.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I agree with sardoniclaugh as well.

Unlike fuckmeat, who sees submission as a journey of more and more control, I see your 'little one's' behavior with her 'pre-you' friends as being a sign of mental health. And I would hate to be among a group of "family and friends" and watch my ebullent, bright, outgoing loved one become subdued and lessened by way of some new SO's expectations-- from my point of view, that is.

osg's comment illustrates the point I am about to make. I went to a talk friday night, and 24/7 was the topic. There were three subs who claimed a 24/7 lifestyle. One of them we had to ask his Domme the question and she would give him permission to answer it, which I found tedious and irritating.

What struck me, although I said nothing about it, was that all three of these subs had no family or friendship ties that they treasured before they found this lifestyle. To remove a healthy person from his or her family is a very difficult thing to do, you're messing with aspects of human nature that are way stronger than we generally give credit to.

I think that any owned sub should be allowed their early relationships to remain unaltered-- if you want a sane sub, a family that does not consider you harmful to their loved one, or a relationship that doesn't blow up in your face.

I hope that someday, Marquise, you will become the kind of master that knows when and where mastery is appropriate, and when to relinquish the reins.

Dan Savage had a somewhat related column a few years ago that seemed relevant to the DS-in-public thing. The first one on this page: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=25851

It's different angle on a similar problem.

I love that man.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Stella, i have to strongly disagree with the idea that a Master who turns it on and off is a good Master...or even a Master at all. this should not be about something you do, it should be about who you are.

that's what disturbs me most about the scenario of a submissive or slave being one person with their Master, and an entirely different person around friends or family. if these people are so close to you, if they truly KNOW you, love you and accept you as you are, then they should see you in your submission to your Master. they shouldn't see someone suddenly behaving and carrying themselves strangely...they should see their loved one finally coming into their own and showing the purest expression of themselves.

believe it or not i did have relationships/connections with people before becoming a slave. i had long friendships which i treasured very much, and an aunt i loved dearly. and just because i was not close to other relatives, it doesn't mean that losing those connections was easy. during that initial period of total isolation, i felt very lonely and disconnected, not tied to anything. but of course that was temporary.

and now my interactions with relatives, however infrequent, are actually much more pleasant and comfortable than they ever were. and that is because in the past i had to deal with not being myself, and still not being accepted. now i am wholly myself, and have been surprised at how easily i have found acceptance from most. i have actually gotten a phone call from an uncle (60s, religious, conservative) inviting my Master on a men's club outing. they see him as someone who is clearly taking care of me, who has their stuff together, and that is enough.

imo if a submissive is having the issue of drastically changing personality with prior friends, then on one end or the other they are just not being true to themselves. perhaps the Master is getting a facade, and the friends are getting the real person.

 

[Braschi]

Well, when you have a problem with someone, usually the best way to think about it is flip the situation. Think of it from other people's point of view. Yes, that's something particularly hard for dominants to do, but it might give you more of an insight of what's going through her head.

Other than that, what Stella and sardonic said. One of my former subs had a pretty high-powered job in the government, and frequently had to put up with gender and discrimination issues. Obviously I couldn't undermine her authority in front of her coworkers, and most importantly lower level civil servants. In order to figure out the best reaction, I thought about what would happen in my job if my father or someone else I have a certain amount of admiration or respect for, where there. What would be the best way for him to act? And that's what I did. Usually it was to give her as much space as she needed to do her stuff, and back her up whenever she needed it. It wasn't my place, they weren't my colleagues or my friends; there was no reason for me to be the star. Besides, I kind of liked watching her -my girl- ordering around all those people, and it was fun imagining making her do something humiliating later.

If you can't do that, well, then take a step back. There's a difference between domineering and dominant. But, of course, you know that

EDIT:
@owned, I really like reading your posts, and agree with you on a lot of issues. And actually, I agree with you in principle. But -the horrible, inevitable but- there is a real world and most people unfortunately don't like honesty. Honestly. We all, to some extent, wear a mask to hide the unpleasant parts of ourself, and that's a good thing.

But I wanted to get to a corollary of what you are saying (because I agree with you in the first part) that while each person has a one true personality, that personality can express itself in a myriad of ways in different circumstances. We get different input, different experiences and different emotions in different circumstances; which means we will act differently, and have different behavioral patterns. Does it mean that I'm faking because around one friend I'm intellectual and somber, while around another I'm silly and fun-loving? No, it means that with one friend I talk about politics and social issues; with the other I play sports and games. Which is the "real" me? Both.

Extend this to D/s, and add to what you're saying. There is one true relationship that reflects who both people are, but how that relationship is expressed changes according to circumstances. For example, if the Dom is an accountant, and the sub is a paramedic; obviously if the Dom breaks a leg, the sub is going to "take charge" of the situation because he knows how best to deal with it. That doesn't mean the Dom is less domly, or the sub is dominant. It just reflects the circumstances.

In Marquis' case, probably the little one is a little more expressive when she's with her friends, and more subdued with him. That doesn't mean she's necessarily faking either one of them. Of course you do raise a good point, because people frequently do fake attitudes around certain people, and that is something to watch out for.

 

[neci]

i was in a "D/s" relationship and had a similar experience on the "s" side. i put the "D/s" in quotations, because we never called it that. that was simply the way it was. the first couple of times we went out together with my friends and family, i felt awkward preparing his plate, fixing his drink, because none of my other friends or family worked that way. they would give me a funny look when he sat there waiting for me to bring him things. the simple act of fixing his plate while my father got his own food was just weird. i couldn't understand how he wouldn't adjust to the environment was in. he flat out refused. he refused to eat unless i fixed the plate, even if that meant going hungry. okay. he never went hungry. i fixed the plate. the strangest thing was when we had joint get togethers with both of our friends. i would be running around trying to do everything, while he sat on the couch socializing with his buddies. it didn't bother me (that's just the way things were), but some of my girlfriends were simply appalled. i felt like i was trapped between two worlds, and i wanted to please everyone. it frustrated and confused me. i have no idea where i am going with this, but to make a long story short, it takes time and communication. if it bothers you, you need to talk about it. you need to find out what is going on. you need to ask your partner, "how do we deal with this, together?"

 

[Stella_Omega]

Of course you disagree, ownedsubgal. You're the exception that proves the rule. We aren't talking about people like you-- neci and marquise's Little One are more "normal" if there's such a thing...

 

[callinectes2]

OSG, I have to disagree with you. You live in a very isolated world that few of us will ever exist in, Your few contacts with the outside world are those your Master has specifically arranged. Of course you can be yourself with those people because they are generally like-minded people, are they not?

Those of us that have to work, take kids to school, etc. have to learn how to live in the real world. Other people's perceptions do matter and those perceptions can have a negative impact on our lives, livelihood, kids, etc.. Just because a Dominant or Master might step back a bit in certain situations doesn't mean that person is fake, it just means their relationship is different from yours.

 

[ownedsubgal]

OSG, I have to disagree with you. You live in a very isolated world that few of us will ever exist in, Your few contacts with the outside world are those your Master has specifically arranged. Of course you can be yourself with those people because they are generally like-minded people, are they not?

Those of us that have to work, take kids to school, etc. have to learn how to live in the real world. Other people's perceptions do matter and those perceptions can have a negative impact on our lives, livelihood, kids, etc.. Just because a Dominant or Master might step back a bit in certain situations doesn't mean that person is fake, it just means their relationship is different from yours.

calli, i have no idea where you got the impression that my Master and i only interact with "like-minded" people. we live in the real world just like everyone else, and while my life may be somewhat isolated (in comparison to most) Daddy's is not. so i often must socialize with his co-workers and "vanilla" friends, and i am very enmeshed in the day to day functioning of his closest family. also you must not have read my previous post, where i stated that every once in a blue moon we actually have to interact and socialize with my relatives. and no matter where i am or who i may be around, i am always myself and my Master is always himself.

yes, to a great many folks the perception of others matter. but we are talking about people who supposedly love and respect you here, not potentially judgmental strangers...shouldn't those people 1. know you, and 2. accept you?

 

[ownedsubgal]

But -the horrible, inevitable but- there is a real world and most people unfortunately don't like honesty. Honestly.

hi Braschi...this is sadly true, and was something i had to learn the hard way when i found myself rejected by someone i had considered to be the dearest of friends. but eventually it hit me...that person was never really a friend in the first place. looking back on the relationship i realized they were never comfortable with my deepest truest self, and that we only bonded on the most superficial of levels.

But I wanted to get to a corollary of what you are saying (because I agree with you in the first part) that while each person has a one true personality, that personality can express itself in a myriad of ways in different circumstances. We get different input, different experiences and different emotions in different circumstances; which means we will act differently, and have different behavioral patterns. Does it mean that I'm faking because around one friend I'm intellectual and somber, while around another I'm silly and fun-loving? No, it means that with one friend I talk about politics and social issues; with the other I play sports and games. Which is the "real" me? Both.

Extend this to D/s, and add to what you're saying. There is one true relationship that reflects who both people are, but how that relationship is expressed changes according to circumstances. For example, if the Dom is an accountant, and the sub is a paramedic; obviously if the Dom breaks a leg, the sub is going to "take charge" of the situation because he knows how best to deal with it. That doesn't mean the Dom is less domly, or the sub is dominant. It just reflects the circumstances.

In Marquis' case, probably the little one is a little more expressive when she's with her friends, and more subdued with him. That doesn't mean she's necessarily faking either one of them. Of course you do raise a good point, because people frequently do fake attitudes around certain people, and that is something to watch out for.

i get what you're saying here and agree for the most part...our individual personality may be expressed somewhat differently depending on a particular circumstance or relationship. but i still believe you should be recognizable to anyone that actually knows you. that's why i mentioned drastic personality changes. the bit about the OP which bothered me most was the mention of behavioral differences toward one's own Master...why would having fun with your friends make you less respectful, less obedient, less submissive to the one who owns you? that respect and submissiveness may express itself differently, but it should always be there....IF those things are reflections of one's true self at all, that is.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Is this going to become another thread about osg's specialness?

i found myself rejected by someone i had considered to be the dearest of friends. but eventually it hit me...that person was never really a friend in the first place. looking back on the relationship i realized they were never comfortable with my deepest truest self, and that we only bonded on the most superficial of levels.

Um... I know this will sound like a judgement, and I don't mean it to be. I bet you did find yourself rejected by someone who loved you very much. I bet they had the choice between standing by you while you set yourself on fire (from their point of view) and keeping their own sanity. Most of us who are on the outside of situations like yours have other people in our lives besides, who also ask for our emotional energy, and have the capability to return some of that in kind. It's no wonder we drift away from the lost causes. We are all of us, only human.

You are one of the most linear, and self-involved, people I have ever run across. You have your reasons. It was either that or kill yourself, I know. But when you talk about how mean other people are for not blessing your very peculiar, very extreme lifestyle, I have to filter it through the osg screen.

 

[KoPilot]

Way I see it, not everybody I ever encounter needs to know that I draw robot porn, wished I was a dude back in high school, or that I like to fantasize about S being 15 feet tall with a 2 foot cock. Those are all part of "who I really am", and anyone who challenges that is an idiot. But that doesn't mean I go shouting it from the rooftops and get upset when people tell me to pipe down.

 

[Keroin]

We, (general, collective "we") are as individual as our thumbprints. Every relationship is an exercise in compatibility. Sometimes we find that person(s) that meshes with our personality and our life, other times, no matter how much we love the other person, the personalities and lives never come together in a way that is satisfactory.

In your other thread, Marquis, JM talked about the importance of learning to consider, and accede to, the needs of your SO sometimes, in order for your needs to be met in the bigger picture. I'd say this is critical. Learning the ins and outs of give and take isn't easy, and in a relationship it is often a lifelong endeavor (as people's needs tend to evolve over time). This applies to ALL flavours of relationships, not just BDSM.

You need to be deferred to. It sounds as if your SO needed to have a place where she could run wild and have fun - a place where deference was not a consideration. The two needs can be met, you simply have to decide the parameters.

My husband and I are not M/s, nor are we 24/7 PYL/pyl, but we are human beings who have different, sometimes opposing, needs. Sometimes finding the balance is simply a matter of realizing that there are parts of our lives that can't overlap. And that's OK. In fact, it makes us richer, happier people to have spaces of our own. But what works for us might fail miserably for others.

What's worth what? Is having a high level of deference at all times worth more than giving space/freedom to a partner who needs that to be whole and happy? That is the kind of question you need to ask yourself when you're in a relationship such as you have described. And no one here can answer that question for you.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Is this going to become another thread about osg's specialness?
Um... I know this will sound like a judgement, and I don't mean it to be. I bet you did find yourself rejected by someone who loved you very much. I bet they had the choice between standing by you while you set yourself on fire (from their point of view) and keeping their own sanity. Most of us who are on the outside of situations like yours have other people in our lives besides, who also ask for our emotional energy, and have the capability to return some of that in kind. It's no wonder we drift away from the lost causes. We are all of us, only human.

You are one of the most linear, and self-involved, people I have ever run across. You have your reasons. It was either that or kill yourself, I know. But when you talk about how mean other people are for not blessing your very peculiar, very extreme lifestyle, I have to filter it through the osg screen.

did i say anything about someone being mean? i said i was rejected, not that i was treated cruelly. if anything it was a valuable life lesson, and as most life lessons tend to be it was a painful one. that person did not "love" me "very much," as it turned out they didn't even like me. again, all it took was some honesty and reflection on my part to realize that whenever things became "real" as far as the expression of my feelings or thoughts, that person would become distant...this included moments when i would express an opinion on their experiences or beliefs. we didn't have a "real" friendship to begin with, on either side, because neither of us ever really accepted the other. it happens, you live and learn and hopefully grow.

and Stella, i certainly do not find myself or my life to be nearly so "special," "peculiar" or "extreme" as you seem to. i am not some alien living on another planet, with no shared cultural experience, thoughts and emotions with the rest of humanity.

 

[Braschi]

hi Braschi...this is sadly true, and was something i had to learn the hard way when i found myself rejected by someone i had considered to be the dearest of friends. but eventually it hit me...that person was never really a friend in the first place. looking back on the relationship i realized they were never comfortable with my deepest truest self, and that we only bonded on the most superficial of levels.

There's nothing wrong with having superficial friendships as well, as close, open ones. The issue is knowing the line, where you can tell people things; and when it's time to shut up.

In fact, I think this is a problem with our modern age, that we don't know how to keep ourselves private. The (lack of) logic is that "if there's nothing wrong with it, you shouldn't have to hide it", but there's such a diversity of opinion out there, that the only way we can get along with each other is if we keep some of the less socially acceptable stuff in the closet as it were.

That having been said, who your friends are and how you relate to them is completely your choice.

i get what you're saying here and agree for the most part...our individual personality may be expressed somewhat differently depending on a particular circumstance or relationship. but i still believe you should be recognizable to anyone that actually knows you. that's why i mentioned drastic personality changes. the bit about the OP which bothered me most was the mention of behavioral differences toward one's own Master...why would having fun with your friends make you less respectful, less obedient, less submissive to the one who owns you? that respect and submissiveness may express itself differently, but it should always be there....IF those things are reflections of one's true self at all, that is.

Exactly, but there's a time and place to exercise that submissiveness. Though I go more for the dominant side, because after all, it's the Dom's initiative, power, and therefore responsibility to keep the "play" or "lifestyle" within acceptable bounds. In certain situations it's inappropriate for a Dom (in this case, maybe, Marquis) to be dominant; or her "lack of submissiveness" might be a natural response to him being inappropriately dominant.

I don't think that having fun with your friends might make you less submissive, but acting out D/s roles in a situation where everyone except you is vanilla, and they're all having fun as equals, might be a bit inappropriate. This is how I understood Marquis, in that she wasn't less submissive, but it was a matter of behavior.

You are one of the most linear, and self-involved, people I have ever run across.

She's kind of overly submissive to be self-involved, I would say. I think she's trying to express a somewhat complicated idea with probably not the best choice of words. But, then, I'm half on the other side of the osg screen, so...

 

[catalina_francisco]

Is it totally about submission or could this be more about personality types M? You are Taurus if I remember correctly, and IME they can have a sense of reservedness in their general behaviour which might not have been so much in hers...not necessarily a bad thing, but just a different way of being which has nothing to do with D/s as such.

I know I have changed a lot since being with F, also a Taurus, to the point I have been heard to remark when reflecting that some people from my previous life would not recognise me if they saw me as I am generally in his presence, and funnily enough most of it has nothing to do with submission but more to do with our personalities. When I go home and am among those friends I related to in a fun and outgoing way, I am the same, as I also find on rare occasions when I am with F and we interact with someone else who picks up on my vibe and I on theirs without consciously trying to.

It is a reality which I do not consciously choose to do, but which has grown over time to be what I feel is expected and felt to be more comfortable for him. Whether he actually expects it I cannot say, it is just how I feel and react. And yes, we do all have to exist in the everyday world and different people will bring out different reactions in us unless we are programmed to no longer feel or be who we are, but more so a character created and expected of us which becomes more about acting to create an image we feel will gain us something, more than being for the sake of being...it is life.

Catalina

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

...but to make a long story short, it takes time and communication. if it bothers you, you need to talk about it. you need to find out what is going on. you need to ask your partner, "how do we deal with this, together?"

This.

So much weirdness builds up in when people are mute. This is how serious resentment and mistaken assumptions develop, then it just comes out in bizarre ways. I'm sure people know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

I agree with sardoniclaugh as well.
And I would hate to be among a group of "family and friends" and watch my ebullent, bright, outgoing loved one become subdued and lessened by way of some new SO's expectations-- from my point of view, that is.

I like this a lot. Why would you want someone for whom you cared to become less happy?

Other people's perceptions do matter and those perceptions can have a negative impact on our lives, livelihood, kids, etc.. Just because a Dominant or Master might step back a bit in certain situations doesn't mean that person is fake, it just means their relationship is different from yours.

And this applies to every area of life. Just because you do love robot porn does not mean that you wear robot porn t-shirts to your brother's wedding, as a sign of your commitment. Unless you're a Bond villain and have your own undersea lair, you have to learn to maximize happiness while maximizing sociability.

Stella, i have to strongly disagree with the idea that a Master who turns it on and off is a good Master...or even a Master at all. this should not be about something you do, it should be about who you are.

Why can't exercising judgement about when and where behavior is most appropriate be part of who you are? I call that being a grownup, not a fake.

 

[sb2009]

. the bit about the OP which bothered me most was the mention of behavioral differences toward one's own Master...why would having fun with your friends make you less respectful, less obedient, less submissive to the one who owns you? that respect and submissiveness may express itself differently, but it should always be there....IF those things are reflections of one's true self at all, that is.

it's hard to know what Marquis means by behavioral differences that make her less respectful...his other thread was open and honest that he has some serious issues in his life; i k now when I am not taking care of myself and my disorder is not as managed - a big symptom is that I think my husband is a jerk ;-)

So....is it that she is being disrespectful to him, or that he, like any normal young-ish guy and also as someone who is learning to manage a major mood disorder and someone who is the PYL - just needs to learn this social skill as well?

And I don't think it's being fake at all to have various faces. My friendships with other Girl Scout moms are fun - but they aren't as deep as my friendship with my friend Shirly. And I act very different at work than I do when I'm home with the family; I act different when I have alone time with my husband than when the kids are in the room. I am multi-faceted, and i like it.

It also could be a sign that he wants a different type of pyl, I don't know.