Okay, Ogg, Handley, Limey's, Riots in London?

[amicus]

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...-speak-of-london-riots-terror-55578-27638232/

STUDENTS spoke of the terrifying scenes as a protest against the trebling of tuition fees turned violent on the streets of London yesterday.
Protesters stormed the Conservative Party headquarters and clashed with police in the centre of the capital.

The battles left 14 people injured.

More than 50,000 students took part in the demonstration with a minority involved in the clashes that saw missiles thrown at police and protesters invade Millbank Tower, where the Conservative party are based..."

~~~

Merry Old England?



Amicus

 

[manyeyedhydra]

About bloody time!

Rather more worrying is the amount of comments I've read contrasting the poll tax riots (which were violent and forced the government to backtrack on introducing some highly unpopular legislation) and the demonstrations against the Iraq war (which were peaceful but completely ignored by government)

 

[oggbashan]

As usual, the violent rioters were not part of the generally peaceful demonstration. Some of those arrested are not, and have not been, students but already have police records for violent behaviour at unrelated demonstrations. The violence has been strongly condemned by the organisers of the demonstration.

Unfortunately there are people who will take advantage of any large gathering to cause trouble. While there is genuine anger about the proposals to increase charges for students the protest has been damaged by the violence.

Amicus should approve of the proposals to make students pay the true cost of their studies and not be subsidised by the UK government.

Riots in London; riots in England - are not new. Rioting in London has a long history going back centuries. What is new is the visual media reporting in detail and coverage by mobile phone cameras of a small minority who came only to make trouble and cause damage.

Technically what happened was not a 'riot'. To be a 'riot' the Police have to admit that they have lost control of the situation, a senior officer reads "The Riot Act" and the use of deadly force by the Police or Armed Forces is then legally permissible. That is only likely to happen when people have been killed by the rioters and more deaths are probable.

Og

 

[Handley_Page]

The Riot Act of 1713 was dropped in 1973.
However, more important to the majority of adults in England is the trouble caused by about 50 "muslims" who burned poppies as the 11th hour approached, with signs that read "British soldiers burn in Hell" and similar, in both English and Arabic.

Quite why we don't use Water Canons in the UK, I do not know, but several people were arrested (including the demonstrators from the "English Defence League".

I'd have pulled the Police out and let them get on with it.

 

[LadyMondegreen]

Hose pipe ban on water cannon?

The Riot Act of 1713 was dropped in 1973.
However, more important to the majority of adults in England is the trouble caused by about 50 "muslims" who burned poppies as the 11th hour approached, with signs that read "British soldiers burn in Hell" and similar, in both English and Arabic.

Quite why we don't use Water Canons in the UK, I do not know, but several people were arrested (including the demonstrators from the "English Defence League".

I'd have pulled the Police out and let them get on with it.

Our town was almost totally closed off because of the EDL. Oh, and some opposing legitimate demonstrators as well. I wouldn't even be on a networking site if it wasn't for that day 'cause I followed the police announcements on Twitter all day so I knew when I could safely go to the cinema. As you can tell I wasn't interested and refused point blank to let it interfere with my life (even though it obviously did as I'm on a networking site, but at least I'm on the right one now). I found the media attention somewhat lackluster about the whole incident, the lead up to, during and after. Quite the opposite of the usual media panic that surrounds these activities or anything mind numbingly boring that needs jazzing up.

I'm all for diversity, the so called "democratic society" illusion, freedom of speech, the right to protest and the right not to be discriminated against. But. I have heard some subtly and not so subtly inciting teachings on niche radio stations.

I did a bit of trawling and found one of the last times we considered using water cannons was after the Bradford, Oldham and Burnley riots back in 2001. Psychologically cold water is a very effective way of cooling peoples emotions. Can you imagine the backlash though if they were used during a hose ban.

As for the students - I'm a student (mature) and my daughter's 13 and the prospects don't look good for her future. The problem with trying to get anything changed in this country is the politicians cherry pick the bits that suit them and the other fat cats.

I have to get off my soap box in front of the telly now having broken two taboos tonight, don't talk about sex, politics and ... lets not go there!

 

[colddiesel]

If you go back to the miners strike and the Barking lock out in the early 1980s and the filmed exerpts on You tube it is immediately obvious that Margaret Thatchers government knew how to deal with rioters.

The police force were thoroughly trained in how to combat force with a disciplined controlled and forceful response.

Under 10 years of Labour government that training has not taken place for what is now the police service

Ironically the more modern service concentrating on pc'dness rather than protecting ordinary citizenry has a worse record of uncontrolled violence(de Menenzes et al).

I don't advocate the casual use of violence against the citizenry but the police force needs to know how violence works and how to combat it. Every Saturday afternoon the streets of major cities become no go zones for ordinary citizens as police allow the mobs to take over, they redirect .they channel the mobs (football fans) but they do not confront and they rarely prosecute. The vast majority of the population want to see the police retake the streets but to do that they need to be trained and equipped and be prepared to use their capacity to enforce the law.

 

[Handley_Page]

Next time I see my tame copper, I think I'll ask him.

 

[Dragonlipz]

Yo AmiCoot: UP YERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh! It's already there!!!!!!
How cool is that????
Peace, DragonLipz

 

[amicus]

Our town was almost totally closed off because of the EDL. Oh, and some opposing legitimate demonstrators as well. I wouldn't even be on a networking site if it wasn't for that day 'cause I followed the police announcements on Twitter all day so I knew when I could safely go to the cinema. As you can tell I wasn't interested and refused point blank to let it interfere with my life (even though it obviously did as I'm on a networking site, but at least I'm on the right one now). I found the media attention somewhat lackluster about the whole incident, the lead up to, during and after. Quite the opposite of the usual media panic that surrounds these activities or anything mind numbingly boring that needs jazzing up.

I'm all for diversity, the so called "democratic society" illusion, freedom of speech, the right to protest and the right not to be discriminated against. But. I have heard some subtly and not so subtly inciting teachings on niche radio stations.

I did a bit of trawling and found one of the last times we considered using water cannons was after the Bradford, Oldham and Burnley riots back in 2001. Psychologically cold water is a very effective way of cooling peoples emotions. Can you imagine the backlash though if they were used during a hose ban.

As for the students - I'm a student (mature) and my daughter's 13 and the prospects don't look good for her future. The problem with trying to get anything changed in this country is the politicians cherry pick the bits that suit them and the other fat cats.

I have to get off my soap box in front of the telly now having broken two taboos tonight, don't talk about sex, politics and ... lets not go there!

~~~

Welcome to our discussion group, your 'soap box' is fine, and religion, your, 'and..' is the funnest part of all!

America is a bit of a horses ass, pardon my analogy.

We are a nation of immigrants from every corner of the globe and not necessarily happily so.

We fight amongst each other and ''throw the bums out' every election or so in our quest for equality under the law and justice for all...we are indeed, a work in progress...

Most of Europe and the rest of the world, in fact, seems to accept government, rulers, Kings, Queens, Dictators and such as the means by which life is lived, day to day.

We Americans are mongrels, cross breeds and such, who will in general, not accept the guidance of the elite who attempt to guide us in our quest for life, liberty and the pursuit of any damned thing we want to pursuel.

At the inception of our Nation, we were the only democracy in the entire world protecting individual rights and liberties....now...nearly two thirds of the entire globe has some degree of democratic; a glowing and impressive growth of freedom over the centuries.

We, as Americans, have an entire continent to provide resources for our existence and expansion...that is not true for England, an Island Nation that must depend upon trade for its' existence.

Nothing that I say is original or new; it has been the grist of many a writer and historian for decades. In our own way, we strive to comprehend the past and the present and look ahead, as best we can, to se what is next in our future.

Join us...share your thoughts and aspirations!

Amicus

 

[CharleyH]

It's embarrassing how little you know about American history, let alone the history of the world around you.

 

[Handley_Page]

I think it's sad that some evil gits high-jack a legitimate protest to cause deliberate trouble, which does little for the original cause of the protest.
A pity they cannot be separated from the main body and dealt with accordingly.

 

[Loring2]

What?

It's embarrassing how little you know about American history, let alone the history of the world around you.

Why don't you tell us all about American History. We can save World History for later. Then you wont be embarrassed anymore.

Loring

 

[LadyMondegreen]

Is that horses ass or arse?

~~~

Welcome to our discussion group, your 'soap box' is fine, and religion, your, 'and..' is the funnest part of all!

America is a bit of a horses ass, pardon my analogy.

We are a nation of immigrants from every corner of the globe and not necessarily happily so.

We fight amongst each other and ''throw the bums out' every election or so in our quest for equality under the law and justice for all...we are indeed, a work in progress...

Most of Europe and the rest of the world, in fact, seems to accept government, rulers, Kings, Queens, Dictators and such as the means by which life is lived, day to day.

We Americans are mongrels, cross breeds and such, who will in general, not accept the guidance of the elite who attempt to guide us in our quest for life, liberty and the pursuit of any damned thing we want to pursuel.

At the inception of our Nation, we were the only democracy in the entire world protecting individual rights and liberties....now...nearly two thirds of the entire globe has some degree of democratic; a glowing and impressive growth of freedom over the centuries.

We, as Americans, have an entire continent to provide resources for our existence and expansion...that is not true for England, an Island Nation that must depend upon trade for its' existence.

Nothing that I say is original or new; it has been the grist of many a writer and historian for decades. In our own way, we strive to comprehend the past and the present and look ahead, as best we can, to se what is next in our future.

Join us...share your thoughts and aspirations!

Amicus

Thank you for my "soap box" space Amicus,

It will be a pleasure to join you and share my thoughts and aspirations.

Though I suspect what you say is possibly to goad me or any one else interested in joining this discussion, I will overly generalise for a moment and say if your opinion of Europeans (bearing in mind you've had at least one President who didn't quite get the "Europe is a continent and doesn't have a capital" concept) is how the average American views us, then so be it. Allegedly 5% of Americans don't even know where the USA is in relation to any where else on the planet!

Your Presidents are voted in specifically to oil the wheels of business, proven when they manipulated the vote to get Bush in. They're voted out when they've achieved, failed or past their shelf life.

And as for history it's widely understood that Hollywood is employed to re-write history so it looks like America saved the day ... again. The Disney Version of World History narrated by Animaniacs!

As for American history ... I've learnt all I need to know via The Simpsons.

Wasn't your Constitution of the United States of America Amendments inspired by The English Bill of Rights (1689)?

And as a nation aren't you getting a bit short on oil?

And self sufficient manufacturing - isn't it good business to lessen the overheads by manufacturing in countries that don't protect people's rights or the environment?

Work in progress has many implications.

Lady Mondegreen

 

[Handley_Page]

Would that president be the one who said "the French don't have a word for entrepreneur" ? He wasn't the first we on this side have laughed at or groaned at.
I remember being quite nervous when Reagan was elected; if anyone was reckoned as being willing to press the button, and drag us into a war, it was him.

Most of us have never quite grasped the USA view of "the World" as being more than your own State ('World Series' being a good example). To us it's the whole damned planet.

Ami, we are all the result of cross-breeding, immigration and so on.

Where we, as an island nation, need to trade for our continued existence, the USA will, I suspect, have movements of trade centres reflecting the current state of business.

 

[amicus]

Thank you for my "soap box" space Amicus,

It will be a pleasure to join you and share my thoughts and aspirations.

Though I suspect what you say is possibly to goad me or any one else interested in joining this discussion, I will overly generalise for a moment and say if your opinion of Europeans (bearing in mind you've had at least one President who didn't quite get the "Europe is a continent and doesn't have a capital" concept) is how the average American views us, then so be it. Allegedly 5% of Americans don't even know where the USA is in relation to any where else on the planet!

Your Presidents are voted in specifically to oil the wheels of business, proven when they manipulated the vote to get Bush in. They're voted out when they've achieved, failed or past their shelf life.

And as for history it's widely understood that Hollywood is employed to re-write history so it looks like America saved the day ... again. The Disney Version of World History narrated by Animaniacs!

As for American history ... I've learnt all I need to know via The Simpsons.

Wasn't your Constitution of the United States of America Amendments inspired by The English Bill of Rights (1689)?

And as a nation aren't you getting a bit short on oil?

And self sufficient manufacturing - isn't it good business to lessen the overheads by manufacturing in countries that don't protect people's rights or the environment?

Work in progress has many implications.

Lady Mondegreen

~~~

Hello Lady, and no thanks necessary, it is but civil protocol to welcome all, not just those that seem to agree or disagree...

I watched something for the second time, "America before Columbus", I think, and beyond the usual claptrap of exploitation, mainly by the Spanish and the Portuguese, the other Europeans were bewildered by the endless forests of North America as they had never seen such unlimited timber resources in all their lives....Europe was denuded of all timber centuries before and virgin forests was not a concept they comprehended.

Democracy, to be more accurate, a Republic, where of the people, by the people and for the people, under the aegis of Constitutional law, is a messy affair at best.

We are not governed by an intellectual elite, not guided by hoary bearded philosophers and wise men, and not even by the best qualified among us as gaining office is a down and dirty exercise in grubby money searching and compromise...still...it is the will of the people, minus the corruption and skullduggery of both parties that give a sour taste to all elections, large and small.

As I mentioned in another thread, when America was born, it was the only Democracy/Republic in the entire world...and now, two thirds of all the world has some form of Democratic government that acts to protect the rights of the individual and the free exchange of goods between them and other nations.

It has not been an easy treck and there are still those who truly and sincerely believe that if only we would give up our individual choices and turn our lives over to a central control, things would be so much better. To me, that is like those apologists after the Civil War in America who argued that the slaves were much better off under complete control of their owners.

And if you, like many others, deny you wish total slavery, just a small amount of control over the rich and prosperous to benefit the less fortunate, that 'small amount' never remains small, it grows and grows and suddenly, instead of riding the back of the Tiger....well...you know how that ends...

I am not a 'reasonable' fellow, in modern terminology; I do not compromise on basic principles or morals and ethics; there are rights and wrongs in my world view, goods and evils, that cannot be comprised or negotiated or appeased. "Give me Liberty or Give me Death!" sounds silly in the 21st Century, but there was a time when men dedicated their lives to those ideals.

Amicus

 

[Handley_Page]

Oh, Ami:-
" As I mentioned in another thread, when America was born, it was the only Democracy/Republic in the entire world...and now, two thirds of all the world has some form of Democratic government that acts to protect the rights of the individual and the free exchange of goods between them and other nations. "

I presume you mean AT THAT TIME. Democracy had been tried and exercised several times previously.

 

[amicus]

Democracy, Mob Rule, is why I emphasized, 'Republic', where citizens elect Representatives who vote.

A Democratic majority, without the Constitutional guidlines which limit the power of government, merely provides a platform for those in power to confiscate whatever they wish to satisfy the demands of the majority.

By the way....on the headline news this morning is a new Royal Engagement or Prince someone and commoner someone...izzat a news item there or just a curiosity?



ami

 

[oggbashan]

...By the way....on the headline news this morning is a new Royal Engagement or Prince someone and commoner someone...izzat a news item there or just a curiosity?



ami

I've just checked the UK Yahoo News. There's nothing about it. The Royals have been significantly involved in Remembrance Day events in the UK and Afghanistan.

It is likely that an engagement announcement might be made soon. It won't be as large a news item as most 'celebrity' romances between pop stars, footballers, Big Brother contestants etc. But a Royal Wedding would be a large event.

I'll check the French Yahoo site. They make more fuss about our Royals than we do.

Og

Edited for PS: Six minutes ago the French Yahoo site posted this. Prince William and Kate Middleton will marry in Spring or Summer 2011. The poor girl's been waiting 8 years for this announcement!

A leur retour de vacances au Kenya, en début de mois, les rumeurs de fiançailles à venir se faisaient de plus en plus insistantes. En réalité, le prince William et Kate Middleton s'étaient déjà fiancés, les cachottiers !

Clarence House, quartier général du prince Charles et de ses fils William et Harry, a émis mardi 16 novembre un communiqué des plus officiels, qui coupe enfin court à des très longs mois de rumeurs et de pression populaire autour du mariage espéré du fils aîné du prince Charles et de sa ravissante bien-aimée : William et Kate se marieront en 2011 !

Huit ans après la naissance de leur idylle exemplaire, qui débuta sur les bancs de la St Andrews University, les jeunes gens, tous deux âgées de 28 ans, "se sont fiancés en octobre lors de vacances privées au Kenya" et se marieront "au printemps ou à l'été 2011 à Londres", selon le communiqué publié par Clarence House, par le biais duquel le prince Charles se réjouissait d'annoncer "les fiançailles du prince William avec de Mademoiselle Catherine Middleton".

Tout a donc été fait dans les règles, et le prince William "a informé la reine et d'autres membres proches de sa famille", tout comme il a demandé "la permission au père de Mademoiselle Middleton".

Reste désormais à fixer une date qui ne soit pas en concurrence avec les noces tant attendues du prince Albert de Monaco et de Charlene Wittstock au mois de juillet.

Et si cette officialisation va enfin faire taire les rumeurs sur leur relation, il n'est pas difficile d'imaginer que de nouvelles vont naître : notamment au sujet du créateur qui aura les faveurs de Kate pour sa robe de mariée. Tout récemment, le Daily Mail remarquait que la charmante Kate Middleton portait, au mariage d'amis (photos ci-dessus), une robe signée de sa créatrice préférée, Daniella Issa Helayel, réputée également pour ses... robes de mariée.

PPS. Now it's on UK Yahoo:

Prince William to marry long-term girlfriend Kate Middleton

"The Prince of Wales is delighted to announce the engagement of Prince William to Miss Catherine Middleton," the statement said.

"The wedding will take place in the Spring or Summer of 2011, in London. Further details about the wedding day will be announced in due course.

"Prince William and Miss Middleton became engaged in October during a private holiday in Kenya.

"Prince William has informed The Queen and other close members of his family. Prince William has also sought the permission of Miss Middleton's father.

"Following the marriage, the couple will live in north Wales, where Prince William will continue to serve with the Royal Air Force.

 

[amicus]

I watched an interview of the couple earlier this evening...an attractive couple and vedy vedy British....the best of all things to them both....



amicus

 

[LadyMondegreen]

Democratic dictatorship

~~~

Hello Lady, and no thanks necessary, it is but civil protocol to welcome all, not just those that seem to agree or disagree...

I watched something for the second time, "America before Columbus", I think, and beyond the usual claptrap of exploitation, mainly by the Spanish and the Portuguese, the other Europeans were bewildered by the endless forests of North America as they had never seen such unlimited timber resources in all their lives....Europe was denuded of all timber centuries before and virgin forests was not a concept they comprehended.

Democracy, to be more accurate, a Republic, where of the people, by the people and for the people, under the aegis of Constitutional law, is a messy affair at best.

We are not governed by an intellectual elite, not guided by hoary bearded philosophers and wise men, and not even by the best qualified among us as gaining office is a down and dirty exercise in grubby money searching and compromise...still...it is the will of the people, minus the corruption and skullduggery of both parties that give a sour taste to all elections, large and small.

As I mentioned in another thread, when America was born, it was the only Democracy/Republic in the entire world...and now, two thirds of all the world has some form of Democratic government that acts to protect the rights of the individual and the free exchange of goods between them and other nations.

It has not been an easy treck and there are still those who truly and sincerely believe that if only we would give up our individual choices and turn our lives over to a central control, things would be so much better. To me, that is like those apologists after the Civil War in America who argued that the slaves were much better off under complete control of their owners.

And if you, like many others, deny you wish total slavery, just a small amount of control over the rich and prosperous to benefit the less fortunate, that 'small amount' never remains small, it grows and grows and suddenly, instead of riding the back of the Tiger....well...you know how that ends...

I am not a 'reasonable' fellow, in modern terminology; I do not compromise on basic principles or morals and ethics; there are rights and wrongs in my world view, goods and evils, that cannot be comprised or negotiated or appeased. "Give me Liberty or Give me Death!" sounds silly in the 21st Century, but there was a time when men dedicated their lives to those ideals.

Amicus

Hello Amicus,

Democracy is an illusion cast by those in power on those they wish to control and exhort money out of. It doesn't matter who started it and who was appearing to do the best illusion in misdirection at any given time. It is a human construct ideal. It's still a dictatorship, but when the masses are enflamed enough we will stand and be counted. The only reason that works is because of the notion that those in control will lose their grip. They then use their other illusionary skills to appear to listen to the people by selling us the idea with a little honey to help the medicine go down.

The power isn't held by the one person appearing to be at the top of the food chain. They are merely a temporary, dispensable figurehead "in vogue" bit of eye candy. There are many other people with money and/or connections who battle and compete to sway power fueled by there own motives in the anonymous vague background. They don't disrupt the system by ensuring there are sufficient loop holes for them to do as they please.

Despite all the improvements in our democratic societies these basic manipulations still exist as legal corruption. They may not be the intellectual elite but the clever ones never get caught. Public ritual sacrifices are executed to weed out the weak ones. It sounds like a fantastic conspiracy theory but it's just not that clever. It is just humans doing what they need to do to survive and thrive.

It's very easy to wish for something that isn't realistically going to happen, there are many ways in which people are enslaved and exploited, and it is indicative of the progress we have made in the modern western world. The Industrial Revolution wheels would have moved with imperceptible slowness without human exploitation. Doesn't mean I agree with it.

I'm curious about your definition as "not a 'reasonable' fellow, in modern terminology". There may be few people who would swear by the Patrick Henry quotation, it is yet another ideal, the problem is that those who strive for that ideal are seriously out numbered by those who want to pay as little as possible for a much as possible.

Lady Mondegreen