Do Dom(me)s do this?

[teknight]

And I don't mean use alliteration, but good guess if that's what you were going for.
Do you ever punish your subs 'cause you've had a rough day/week? Or, do you let your frustrations with your subs build up and then take them out on the subs in one glorious fit of spanking (or whatever your preferred method of punishment* is)?

*I'll grant that a naughty sub might be looking to get spanked, which would render the punishment into a reward....

 

[wicked woman]

No my Dom doesn't punish me because he's had a rough day/week. That's not what punishment is. Punishment should be a direct result of my actions, not the general outside world.


Technically though he could take a rough day out on my physically, if he wanted to. It wouldn't be punishment though. I could see perhaps like a massage relaxes some, a Dom might find some relief in a bad day through flogging/spanking a sub.

Or do you let your frustrations with your sub build up? No. We communicate. If I displease him or haven't done as he wanted, he'll tell me clearly. What's the point of not telling me and building up frustration?

This isn't a game where he's trying to catch me so he can punish me...though some do that. Punishment is serious. It means that I've purposely displeased him. Hasn't happened. Not likely to happen.

If he wants to do the same act...spank...as you're calling punishment...he can do that just because he wants to. He doesn't need a reason. And yes he does that.

My concern with your suggested scenarios would be that the PYL was in control of themself.

Your understanding of what punishment is, is clearly different than mine.

 

[teknight]

No my Dom doesn't punish me because he's had a rough day/week. That's not what punishment is. Punishment should be a direct result of my actions, not the general outside world.
OK, I'll grant you that...but surely you don't exist in a bubble, isolated from the outside world.

Technically though he could take a rough day out on my physically, if he wanted to. It wouldn't be punishment though. I could see perhaps like a massage relaxes some, a Dom might find some relief in a bad day through flogging/spanking a sub.

Or do you let your frustrations with your sub build up? No. We communicate. If I displease him or haven't done as he wanted, he'll tell me clearly. What's the point of not telling me and building up frustration?
Why question a Dom?

This isn't a game where he's trying to catch me so he can punish me...though some do that. Punishment is serious. It means that I've purposely displeased him. Hasn't happened. Not likely to happen.

If he wants to do the same act...spank...as you're calling punishment...he can do that just because he wants to. He doesn't need a reason. And yes he does that.
If he does it randomly, then it's not punishment, as per the definition offered below.

My concern with your suggested scenarios would be that the PYL was in control of themself.
I don't follow.
Your understanding of what punishment is, is clearly different than mine.
Punishment is an attempt to alter behavior under the portmanteau of operant conditioning. It's aim is to reduce the frequency of a behavior.

Thanks for your input, hope to get a reply to this....and not get spanked for being such a n00b!

 

[JMohegan]

There are relationships in which it is mutually understood that the D has the right to take out his frustrations, from whatever source, on the s - whether or not she's done anything wrong.

That is not a dynamic that interests me, for a variety of reasons, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with it as long as all involved are down with the overall plan.

 

[wicked woman]

Thanks for your input, hope to get a reply to this....and not get spanked for being such a n00b!

No my Dom doesn't punish me because he's had a rough day/week. That's not what punishment is. Punishment should be a direct result of my actions, not the general outside world.
OK, I'll grant you that...but surely you don't exist in a bubble, isolated from the outside world.

Of course I don't live in a bubble. My point was that if a Dom spanked me because he had a rough day/week that it wouldn't be punishment - even by your definition, as you stated below.

Technically though he could take a rough day out on my physically, if he wanted to. It wouldn't be punishment though. I could see perhaps like a massage relaxes some, a Dom might find some relief in a bad day through flogging/spanking a sub.

Or do you let your frustrations with your sub build up? No. We communicate. If I displease him or haven't done as he wanted, he'll tell me clearly. What's the point of not telling me and building up frustration?
Why question a Dom?

Surely you jest! He's a Dom not God...and then even some question God.

Other than as an off hand remark, I don't understand how your question is a response to my comment.

This isn't a game where he's trying to catch me so he can punish me...though some do that. Punishment is serious. It means that I've purposely displeased him. Hasn't happened. Not likely to happen.

If he wants to do the same act...spank...as you're calling punishment...he can do that just because he wants to. He doesn't need a reason. And yes he does that.
If he does it randomly, then it's not punishment, as per the definition offered below.

It's not the randomness that makes it not a punishment. The same action, say spanking, can have different intents. You were talking about punishment. My example of spanking in this case didn't have the intent of correcting my actions (or punishment, according to your definition) but of play...for enjoyment.

My concern with your suggested scenarios would be that the PYL was in control of themself.
I don't follow.

What I was alluding to was that a Dom needs to stay in control of himself. A person who uses physical force on another to take out a rough day or their frustrations, may also be one who isn't in control of himself. I wouldn't want to submit to a person who wasn't in control of themself. They might be in control...but for me, it would be a red flag that I would watch.

Your understanding of what punishment is, is clearly different than mine.
Punishment is an attempt to alter behavior under the portmanteau of operant conditioning. It's aim is to reduce the frequency of a behavior.

If that's your definition of punishment, how is smacking someone because you've had a bad day punishment? The sub would be the one being punished but they didn't have a behaviour that needed altering. This goes back to your first point and why I was saying it wasn't punishment.

Your question would have been betterstated for me, if you just left out the punishment issue. Do you ever take out a bad day on your sub? Do you let your frustrations build up so you can take them out on your sub? Is that closer to what you were trying to get at?

If so, my answer is still no he doesn't, to both questions and I'm glad he doesn't.

 

[CutieMouse]

What you're talking about isn't defined as "punishment" in my world. In my world, both dominant and submissive retain the right to say something along the lines of "I had an utterly asstastic day/week/whatever; right now I want [or need] ___," and it be okay.

To my knowledge, I've never had a lover "take a bad day out on me", but I have been known to say *I* have had a really bad day and could use XYZ, if he was in the mood.

I guess part of what I don't get about the original question, is the assumption that spanking (or whatever physical discomfort) is automatically "punishment", or that a submissive wouldn't have other options at his/her disposal to get a spanking/whatever physical discipline he/she needed without manipulating their lover into it.

 

[teknight]

Do you let your frustrations build up so you can take them out on your sub? Is that closer to what you were trying to get at?

Your questions are better than mine.

And I do see your point about the Dom(me) losing self control.

As for my other replies, they were a bit random and driven by the individual paragraphs/thoughts, not a unifying theme.

Let me ask you this though: how do you distinguish between behavior meant to punish and behavior meant to reward and pleasure, if it's spanking* both times?

*pick your poison here

Why question a Dom?- noob thing to say on my part.
And I'm glad to hear you have such a good relationship with your Dom.

 

[teknight]

What you're talking about isn't defined as "punishment" in my world. In my world, both dominant and submissive retain the right to say something along the lines of "I had an utterly asstastic day/week/whatever; right now I want [or need] ___," and it be okay.

To my knowledge, I've never had a lover "take a bad day out on me", but I have been known to say *I* have had a really bad day and could use XYZ, if he was in the mood.

I guess part of what I don't get about the original question, is the assumption that spanking (or whatever physical discomfort) is automatically "punishment", or that a submissive wouldn't have other options at his/her disposal to get a spanking/whatever physical discipline he/she needed without manipulating their lover into it.

OK, I'll grant that my question could have been better honed...but it would seem that the assumptions are flowing on both sides.

Here's another random thought on punishment (forget that I said spanking):
punishments administered at random (and not every time an averse behavior was observed) should prove more effective than predictable punishments...if you never know when the time you'll be punished is going to be, then the only option is for you to behave (or work really hard on not getting caught).

I'm still facing a huge learning curve on the power dynamics here....

 

[Kikori]

Let me ask you this though: how do you distinguish between behavior meant to punish and behavior meant to reward and pleasure, if it's spanking* both times?

*pick your poison here

That's not the point of the topic, though. You're asking if dom(me)s take out frustrations on their subs with sadistic behavior. Whether the spanking is done as a punishment for wrongdoing in the D/s relationship or as a reward spanking, that's still spanking within consensual boundaries, and doesn't really need to be looked into.

I'd think any sub whose relationship with their dom(me) allows for venting-frustration abuse would have to be more leaning to sadomasochistic (best case scenario), doormat abuse, and/or just a bad relationship disguised as a BDSM one. I'm probably overlooking a couple more options here, but those seem the most prominent possibilities.

 

[CutieMouse]

OK, I'll grant that my question could have been better honed...but it would seem that the assumptions are flowing on both sides.

Here's another random thought on punishment (forget that I said spanking):
punishments administered at random (and not every time an averse behavior was observed) should prove more effective than predictable punishments...if you never know when the time you'll be punished is going to be, then the only option is for you to behave (or work really hard on not getting caught).

I'm still facing a huge learning curve on the power dynamics here....

Mmmmmm... no.

(Note, I am in no way shape or form implying that submissives are equal to animals or small children.)

What happens if you're training a dog, and there is absolutely zero consistency re: punishment? Does the dog learn to be a perfect animal and anticipate good behavior? Or does the dog learn to go "What the bloody ****?!?! Jumping on Aunt Martha was okay an hour ago! Why'd he yell at me?" and either turn mean (biting/etc) or fearful?

Answer - the dog either becomes a problem animal (biting/growling/anti-social) or fearful (cowers, shys away from people, etc).

What happens if you are teaching a 3 year old to not throw a tantrum at the dinner table when introduced to a new food, but sometimes you decide it's okay for them to throw a fit, and sometimes it isn't? Does the kid learn to always politely try one bite, say no thank you, and eat the rest of their dinner every time? Or does the child learn it can always push a little harder just to see if mommy and daddy are too tired to care about good manners?

Answer - the child learns to always push, just in case they might get their way and not have to eat the broccoli next time.

What you are describing is a negative feedback loop/negative reinforcement - except worse, because there is a complete lack of consistency. Read any significant amount of literature on things like educational theory, corporate training, animal behavior theory, cognitive behavioral training, psychotherapy, etc... and you will learn that positive reinforcement trumps negative reinforcement every.damn.time.

 

[teknight]

That's not the point of the topic, though.
I was actually answering a highly specific thing that WW and CM brought up...but thanks for telling me what to do in my thread.

You're asking if dom(me)s take out frustrations on their subs with sadistic behavior. Whether the spanking is done as a punishment for wrongdoing in the D/s relationship or as a reward spanking, that's still spanking within consensual boundaries, and doesn't really need to be looked into.

I'd think any sub whose relationship with their dom(me) allows for venting-frustration abuse would have to be more leaning to sadomasochistic (best case scenario), doormat abuse, and/or just a bad relationship disguised as a BDSM one. I'm probably overlooking a couple more options here, but those seem the most prominent possibilities.

Also it'd seem that people are reading too much into this abusive behavior...I was literally talking about spanking- open handed ...etc. I'll grant the abuse point, within the apparent confines of how the posters define a D/s relationship, but, it sounds like you guys are imagining broken bones and such.....

 

[teknight]

Mmmmmm... no.

(Note, I am in no way shape or form implying that submissives are equal to animals or small children.)

What happens if you're training a dog, and there is absolutely zero consistency re: punishment? Does the dog learn to be a perfect animal and anticipate good behavior? Or does the dog learn to go "What the bloody ****?!?! Jumping on Aunt Martha was okay an hour ago! Why'd he yell at me?" and either turn mean (biting/etc) or fearful?

Answer - the dog either becomes a problem animal (biting/growling/anti-social) or fearful (cowers, shys away from people, etc).

What happens if you are teaching a 3 year old to not throw a tantrum at the dinner table when introduced to a new food, but sometimes you decide it's okay for them to throw a fit, and sometimes it isn't? Does the kid learn to always politely try one bite, say no thank you, and eat the rest of their dinner every time? Or does the child learn it can always push a little harder just to see if mommy and daddy are too tired to care about good manners?

Answer - the child learns to always push, just in case they might get their way and not have to eat the broccoli next time.

What you are describing is a negative feedback loop/negative reinforcement - except worse, because there is a complete lack of consistency. Read any significant amount of literature on things like educational theory, corporate training, animal behavior theory, cognitive behavioral training, psychotherapy, etc... and you will learn that positive reinforcement trumps negative reinforcement every.damn.time.

And I just got my spanking. You're 100% right...and I should know better. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[CutieMouse]

Also it'd seem that people are reading too much into this abusive behavior...I was literally talking about spanking- open handed ...etc. I'll grant the abuse point, within the apparent confines of how the posters define a D/s relationship, but, it sounds like you guys are imagining broken bones and such.....

I'm talking about open handed spanking, just like you are, because that is the example you gave.

I am also confused as hell by your original question, because (for example) I do not get punished in my relationships. Period. If I want a spanking, Is say so. If he wants to deliver one, he does. (Using spanking as an example, because it's what you are using for the example - it isn't actually something that's played any significant role in any relationship I've ever had.)

 

[Kikori]

Also it'd seem that people are reading too much into this abusive behavior...I was literally talking about spanking- open handed ...etc. I'll grant the abuse point, within the apparent confines of how the posters define a D/s relationship, but, it sounds like you guys are imagining broken bones and such.....

Abuse doesn't have to involve vehement violence. I'd call it abuse if I went to my girlfriend's house and backhanded her out of frustration of a bad work day and crappy traffic on the way to her house, but the worst physical damage she could sustain from it would be a mark on the face or glasses being slightly bent. There's an incredible difference between that kind of slap out of simply venting my own anger and using the same (or a similar) slap during playing in the message that goes across with it.

 

[teknight]

Close the thread

Hmmm....

Either I'm coming from a completely different angle than everyone else, or I don't express myself well enough, or I'm too much of a noob.

Conclusion- gotta go back to the drawing board.

I consider my question basically answered.
If you wanna chyme in PM me.

I declare this thread closed.

 

[Kikori]

I declare it still open, but only to hijack it.

Hi, CutieMouse, how are you?

 

[BiBunny]

I REALLY don't think engaging in S&M to rid oneself of the frustration of a bad day is abusive. I mean, if the shoe were on the other foot, you wouldn't be getting this kind of response. How many bottoms talk about having a bad day and wanting to be beaten to feel better? As long as the top knows what's going on, how is that abusive and exploitative?

As for the random punishment thing, no, that doesn't work. Intermittent (positive) reinforcement will produce behavior that's hardest to extinguish, in strictly behavioral terms, but intermittent punishment doesn't.

 

[wicked woman]

<snip>.

Let me ask you this though: how do you distinguish between behavior meant to punish and behavior meant to reward and pleasure, if it's spanking* both times?

*pick your poison here

Why question a Dom?- noob thing to say on my part.
And I'm glad to hear you have such a good relationship with your Dom.

Whether a spank is reward or punishment is clear from the situation. If I'm being punished, surely I would be told what I was being punished for, right?

Let me ask you to take a step back. Separate the D/s from the SM part of BDSM. If I'm in a D/s relationship, not only am I submitting to him but his happiness is as important to me as my own. I want to make his life easier. I don't ever want to disappoint him, if at all possible. I might...I'm human...but never intentionally.

We're both good with words and tend to use them...we'd be lost without them. We also know each other well. He knows that if I disappoint him...punishment is the last thing I need. I already feel bad enough....I'm harder on myself than he is. It wasn't intentional so doesn't need behavioural modifcation/correction. My 'punishment' is having disappointed him.

While punishment isn't off the table for us, it's unlikely to ever be used. I can't see ever intentionally disobeying him and if it's unintentional, we need to communicate and clarify, not punish me.

oh and thanks for the compliment.

 

[wicked woman]

Hmmm....

Either I'm coming from a completely different angle than everyone else, or I don't express myself well enough, or I'm too much of a noob.

Conclusion- gotta go back to the drawing board.

I consider my question basically answered.
If you wanna chyme in PM me.

I declare this thread closed.

Your choice, of course to not continue in the discussion...but as you see, if won't necessarily stop others.


You're new. It's your job to educate yourself if this is what you may be interested in. That means reading, talking, finding out.

Please don't take the responses here in a negative context. We're trying to answer them. No one is shooting you down. It's just that your inexperience is showing with the way you're asking the questions. Doesn't mean don't ask them. Just that it takes some communication to get at what you're trying to ask and in the meantime we're trying to answer you.

 

[wicked woman]

<snip>

As for the random punishment thing, no, that doesn't work. Intermittent (positive) reinforcement will produce behavior that's hardest to extinguish, in strictly behavioral terms, but intermittent punishment doesn't.

I haven't kept up with behavioural modification, but is it still the case where reward is much more efficient at changing behaviour (by encouraging the good behaviour) versus punishment (to correct the bad behaviour)?

 

[teknight]

Your choice, of course to not continue in the discussion...but as you see, if won't necessarily stop others.


You're new. It's your job to educate yourself if this is what you may be interested in. That means reading, talking, finding out.

Please don't take the responses here in a negative context. We're trying to answer them. No one is shooting you down. It's just that your inexperience is showing with the way you're asking the questions. Doesn't mean don't ask them. Just that it takes some communication to get at what you're trying to ask and in the meantime we're trying to answer you.

I'm obviously talking some alien language here. What about a PM suggests I don't wanna communicate?
However, since you and I are having issues on the very basic terms that I'm using (such as punishment), what's the point of carrying on a conversation? I don't speak your language (don't have your experiences/knowledge), you don't speak mine. I need to play catch up....but, I'd like to do so on my own terms.

 

[BiBunny]

I haven't kept up with behavioural modification, but is it still the case where reward is much more efficient at changing behaviour (by encouraging the good behaviour) versus punishment (to correct the bad behaviour)?

Last I heard it was, LOL. For most situations, anyway.

 

[teknight]

I haven't kept up with behavioural modification, but is it still the case where reward is much more efficient at changing behaviour (by encouraging the good behaviour) versus punishment (to correct the bad behaviour)?

Yeah...reinforcement is more effective by far.

 

[wicked woman]

I'm obviously talking some alien language here. What about a PM suggests I don't wanna communicate?
However, since you and I are having issues on the very basic terms that I'm using (such as punishment), what's the point of carrying on a conversation? I don't speak your language (don't have your experiences/knowledge), you don't speak mine. I need to play catch up....but, I'd like to do so on my own terms.

The benefit of using this discussion forum is that other newbies can benefit as well, but clearly your right to catch up as you wish. I just didn't want you to think I/we were trying to pick on you or discourage your questions.


Feel free to PM if you think that might be helpful.

 

[wicked woman]

Last I heard it was, LOL. For most situations, anyway.

Yeah...reinforcement is more effective by far.

Must be why graceanne keeps sharing cookies.