What do women get wrong?

[LJ_Reloaded]

I mean, besides accusing men of having all kinds of faults and acting like they're superior to men and then expecting them to laugh and sing and dance for them like Steppin Fetchit?

Well, for starters, stories where (proverbially speaking, ladies) guys slay dragons or play the Matrosov of the day

okay, I'm just kidding about that part. Nowadays it's all about guys being totally perfect, the provider, the rock, the daddy, the alpha male, who deigns... er, I'm sorry, sees the light and marries the Cinder-er, I mean, the waitress.

Rarely is there a story ever written by a woman that is not hypergamic in nature. Granted, women write their men with realistic body proportions, but Marty Stu is very much alive in female erotica. If she has to come to HIS rescue, that just kills the romance DEAD. He still better come home with his shield, or laying on it.

Unrealistic, in a different way: it's the sheer monotony of it all.

Female erotica BEGS to be deconstructed. But no one will do it for fear of being called a woman hater...

 

[mynameisben]

It amuses me that this thread has been viewed over 20 times and no one has responded to it.

 

[djserani]

Because there are WAY too many women on this forum to risk it.

The only thing I'll say is that if men are going to expect the women in their erotica to be big-breasted, skinny, non-thinking, oral-loving (giving, that is, but not wanting to receive) sluts, then they have to assume that, as erotica is fantasy that the women will have something similar.

But, frankly, if you're writing a 5k story, then that's fine. Characters don't need to be well-rounded. You're reading a story because it arouses and gets the brain going so that the rest follows suit.

If you're writing a 100k novel, that's different. Erotica or no, both the hero and heroine have to be more well-rounded. And no, neither is perfect. They don't have to be, they only have to be perfect for their match in the story.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I cant disagree more!

The smaller the word count the more concentrated and pithy the writing should be. A novel is little more than a poem with plenty of water added.

 

[TxRad]

I cant disagree more!

The smaller the word count the more concentrated and pithy the writing should be. A novel is little more than a poem with plenty of water added.

And your examples of this are where?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

And your examples of this are where?

Pick a decent poem and examine it; then examine a good short story, etc. The best poets and short story writers pack much inside small spaces.

Lyricists mastered the process long ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5EUcYw96us&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECL1h133Dps&feature=related

 

[driphoney]

So, does this mean we have to stop writing what we like? That common Lit advice is out that window now?

*heading over to check out LJ_Reloaded stories, gain pointers on proper male characters*

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I expect you'll write whatever pops into your skull; it likely wont be worth crap but you'll write it.

 

[statsultan]

Because there are WAY too many women on this forum to risk it.

The only thing I'll say is that if men are going to expect the women in their erotica to be big-breasted, skinny, non-thinking, oral-loving (giving, that is, but not wanting to receive) sluts, then they have to assume that, as erotica is fantasy that the women will have something similar.

But, frankly, if you're writing a 5k story, then that's fine. Characters don't need to be well-rounded. You're reading a story because it arouses and gets the brain going so that the rest follows suit.

If you're writing a 100k novel, that's different. Erotica or no, both the hero and heroine have to be more well-rounded. And no, neither is perfect. They don't have to be, they only have to be perfect for their match in the story.

A lot of good stuff here. After years of reading literotica I finally got bored with the silliness of it all. An unrealistic 'perfect' character is fine for a short stroke piece. It's a fantasy designed to get me off. Fine. But anything longer than that and I lose interest.

And the best way to make a character well-rounded --- dialog!

It drives me nuts when I read a story where guy meets girl, they say three sentences to each other, and the author follows that with "they suddenly realized that they had been talking for 30 minutes and were hot for each other". Ummm, no.

 

[Firebrain]

I think that anyone who suggests that erotica needs deconstructing hasn't read around enough. It's not done much in popular fiction, no, in the same way that we're not going to get many "normal" looking porn stars; but hop on to the right websites and you'll find "normal" people in pretty good amateur porn. The same goes for fiction.

For me, male weakness is an exciting part of the developing intimacy of a story. Wanting a man to be dominant is not mutually exclusive to acknowledging his flaws, and ditto women.

One must also remember that people write about people that they find attractive, in erotica. There are plenty of stories on here about larger men or women, for example, or older people...it's there. But nobody's going to say, "mmm, look at the grotesque vileness on that!" because we don't even say it in real life.

Hell, you can even buy Mills and Boon novels with a plot featuring vaginismus these days.

I've been told that my female lead is a misogynist. I don't know if that's correct, but I certainly find it interesting - and realistic, to a point.

 

[Firebrain]

I should add (won't let me edit for some reason) that I don't find that hypergamy has to be material to be present, and to work. We're in an age where more people than ever divorce because of money worries; marrying up, so to speak, is probably a fantasy for people of both sexes.

 

[ModernDayHermes]

Because there are WAY too many women on this forum to risk it.

The only thing I'll say is that if men are going to expect the women in their erotica to be big-breasted, skinny, non-thinking, oral-loving (giving, that is, but not wanting to receive) sluts, then they have to assume that, as erotica is fantasy that the women will have something similar.




i find it funny that both men and women are constantly saying the same things to each other but neither side can ignore their pride long enough to really pay attention.

erotica is based off fantasy-though many stories have reality sprinkled in-so it should be EXPECTED that the object of desire in these stories would be impossibly perfect. while it does benefit an author to show that they can make the simplest of personnalities seem so sexy that they appeal to your average reader, doing this is also a huge risk. one alot of authors choose to not take. what i'd really like to see more of, is writters challenging themselves and trying to write from a different perspective. for instance take your alpha male characters and tell a story from his eyes. try to convince the reader of why this "dream catch" is falling for the most average of women? or try to take the female bombshell with the impossible measurements and tell the erotic love story of how she fell for the overweight customer sales rep with the heart of gold. just an idea.

 

[djserani]

what i'd really like to see more of, is writters challenging themselves and trying to write from a different perspective. for instance take your alpha male characters and tell a story from his eyes. try to convince the reader of why this "dream catch" is falling for the most average of women?

Clicky
Is this the kind of thing you're talking about?

 

[statsultan]

what i'd really like to see more of, is writters challenging themselves and trying to write from a different perspective. for instance take your alpha male characters and tell a story from his eyes. try to convince the reader of why this "dream catch" is falling for the most average of women?

I know they are rare, but there are a few of them out there. The better ones show the woman becoming more beautiful over the life of the story, and the reader realizes it's because the protagonist is falling in love with her. As always, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

I know they are rare, but there are a few of them out there. The better ones show the woman becoming more beautiful over the life of the story, and the reader realizes it's because the protagonist is falling in love with her. As always, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I like this sort of thing, when it's done right and along with acknowledging individual tastes that make you look at difference in another way and maybe even cause you to become (sexually) attracted to that difference.

There have been stories in erotic prose written extremely well with the requisite passion and lust, describing the characteristics/physicality/style of a person whose type I may have previously not considered fetching in such an enticing way that the story and its particulars sticks in my brain...and I end up consciously and unconsciously looking for that character in reality, if I interact people that come close to it. So not only does beauty lie in the eye of the beholder, but (IMO) it's a changing, shifting vision of either acceptance or denial for the beholder.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

Because there are WAY too many women on this forum to risk it.

More true than you realize.

The only thing I'll say is that if men are going to expect the women in their erotica to be big-breasted, skinny, non-thinking, oral-loving (giving, that is, but not wanting to receive) sluts, then they have to assume that, as erotica is fantasy that the women will have something similar.

Whether or not men expect the women in their erotica to be like that, women will still have their hypergamic fantasies. Alpha male meets waitress, and all that.

Many guys will have their big breasted, dumb, skinny women who don't ask for reciprocation, too. Whether or not women become more realistic in their fantasies (eh, oxymoron?).

And your examples of this are where?

I am going to have to agree with JBJ on this one. Shudder the thought.

So, does this mean we have to stop writing what we like? That common Lit advice is out that window now?

*Sigh* The whole definition of "what men get wrong" is men writing what they like. Why would you be hostile toward the same criticism coming back in the opposite direction? Unless you're saying it's untrue?

I should add (won't let me edit for some reason) that I don't find that hypergamy has to be material to be present, and to work. We're in an age where more people than ever divorce because of money worries; marrying up, so to speak, is probably a fantasy for people of both sexes.

Hypergamy is more than just about money.

Women's erotic stories always have the guy as the protector.
He's usually (but not always) richer.
Usually (but not always) older.
He's always taller.
He's always the father figure.
He's always the protector or rescuer. She NEVER is.
There is no 'man in distress' in female erotica or romance.

That's what made the series "Chuck" so revolutionary: it broke almost all the rules of hypergamy.

Edited to add: I meant, the TV series "Chuck". Agh, I know someone's gonna go nuclear over bringing up a TV series in an erotic story discussion thread......

 

[driphoney]

*Sigh* The whole definition of "what men get wrong" is men writing what they like. Why would you be hostile toward the same criticism coming back in the opposite direction? Unless you're saying it's untrue?

*sigh*

So, this wasn't a sincere topic? Just an attack at the other thread because you felt it was unfair? Ah. And who said I hostile? So, I take you it you disagree with the usual Lit response of "write what you want"?

For what it's worth, both threads make good points. And I think both types of stereotypes are catering to different readers. But, I think that point was already made.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

*sigh*

So, this wasn't a sincere topic? Just an attack at the other thread because you felt it was unfair? Ah. And who said I hostile? So, I take you it you disagree with the usual Lit response of "write what you want"?

For what it's worth, both threads make good points. And I think both types of stereotypes are catering to different readers. But, I think that point was already made.

Au contraire, it was a test to see if what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Why is that "common Lit advice" out the window (or, at least subject to heavy ridicule) when people bring up "what do men get wrong" but it shouldn't be out the window here?

Why do you see this as an attack on another thread instead of a case in point of "what's good for men is good for women"?

 

[driphoney]

Why is that "common Lit advice" out the window (or, at least subject to heavy ridicule) when people bring up "what do men get wrong" but it shouldn't be out the window here?

Why do you see this as an attack on another thread instead of a case in point of "what's good for men is good for women"?

I was just reading what you wrote and responded to it. You're the one who brought up the other thread. I don't recall making a comment on the other thread. From what I could tell, it ran off the rails rather quickly.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

I was just reading what you wrote and responded to it. You're the one who brought up the other thread. I don't recall making a comment on the other thread. From what I could tell, it ran off the rails rather quickly.

I brought up the other thread because people have very short memories.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that women write erotica and romance not for men, but for women (the primary reader market for things that women write). In fact I would be inclined to believe the vast majority of readers of Lit stories are women...

 

[driphoney]

I brought up the other thread because people have very short memories.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that women write erotica and romance not for men, but for women (the primary reader market for things that women write). In fact I would be inclined to believe the vast majority of readers of Lit stories are women...

I agree. Well, it fits me anyway. The second paragraph. My poor memory is a touchy subject.

 

[TxRad]

I brought up the other thread because people have very short memories.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that women write erotica and romance not for men, but for women (the primary reader market for things that women write). In fact I would be inclined to believe the vast majority of readers of Lit stories are women...

Sorry to disappoint you but someone posted the web site demographics a while back and the average reader was male and older.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The way to write porn for women is to write porn for a woman. Your story wont appeal to all women cuz all women arent hot for everything that fills one, particular female with contentment; but you'll find a niche for your writing.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

On a writerly point, here is a brief extract from guidelines of a successful publisher of female erotica written by women. I think it sums things up well.

A WORD ABOUT WHAT EROTICA IS AND ISN’T

Contrary to popular belief on the part of many unsolicited authors – erotica is not ‘writing about genitalia’ – good erotica should explore the psychological dynamic that occurs preceding and during sexual arousal. We do not want to see manuscripts or short stories that focus on what happens to genitals when people become aroused.

THE SETTING

An erotic novel should be an arousing, escapist fantasy, but it should also function as a good story. Page after page of undiluted sexual gymnastics and anatomical description is not what we’re looking for; this soon becomes dull.

Whereas men seem to be fixated by anatomy, women seem to be more interested in scenarios in which the build up, the environment, or the dynamics between the characters are paramount – and certainly more important than what someone’s cock looks like. This doesn’t mean that women want ‘softer’ sex scenes, but they do want characters who are believable - i.e. not the men’s magazine ideal of impossibly proportioned nymphets with 18-inch waists who orgasm at first touch, or the women’s magazine ideal of flawless 6ft beauties who are obsessed with perfection.

Do not feel you have to pack your story from beginning to end with sex scenes. Even within erotica, the sex does not have to be gratuitous, tiresome or unrealistic. The reader wants story, too. Sexual tension is the greatest friend of erotic writing – do not forget this. Allow the sex scenes to evolve naturally.

SEXUAL VOCABULARY AND ANATOMY

You don’t actually have to describe genitalia or the effect of arousal on sexual organs in erotica; merely describe genitalia as hard, or wet, and the reader gets it.

But hold the euphemisms too. Please try to refrain from using expressions such as ‘the centre of her womanhood/his rampant manhood’ etc. We aim for a streamlined, economical prose that is more upbeat and less meandering. The erotica-buying public is practically unshockable these days, and would rather a cock was called a cock, and a penis a penis, than ‘a pulsing member’. What’s going on in the characters’ heads is always more arousing than close-up detail of every millimetre of their genitals.

Less is more. Pull back and remember that dirty dialogue and more basic and clear descriptions have a place, too. ‘Sexually explicit’ need not mean ‘the minutiae of genital anatomy’. For instance, a common female fantasy is having sex with a stranger on a train. What’s arousing about it is the naughtiness of the situation, and not the exact length, colour and consistency of the guy’s cock.

We know how the plumbing works. Try to use words that are in common currency, too. People do not think about their ‘glans’ and ‘labia’ when they’re horny. In fact, you’ll have a job finding a guy who has ever said ‘glans’. Also, when describing genitals, be sparing with the modifiers. Not every clit or cock has to be ‘engorged’ and ‘pulsating’. Body parts only throb when they’re injured.

Also, we want to take the ‘YUK’ factor out of sex scenes. Our readers do not want endless references to ‘sopping vaginas’ and ‘semen-filled cunts’. Please, a little more decorum!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Oh! My!

The story requirement will kill LITEROTICA submissions.